Pulling Trans/transfer questions (1 Viewer)

[MattMud]

Recently bought an 02 Cruiser with 279k. I have a few of them but this one is losing a quart a week of oil. Have a new RMS, the O ring, and the fipg. I searched for a write up on this but no luck. Questions:

1. At AT-28 the FSM talks about removing the radiator and trans cooler and shroud. Is that needed?

2. Can I pull trans/transfer and NOT drain fluid? If so, how to plug cooler lines? If i have to drain isnt that “bad” as I’ve read to leave trans fluid alone?

3. Toyo dealer gave me a tube of black fipg but said their techs use the green fipg and gave me a tube of that. Which is correct?

4. Do i need to support enging with floor jack so it doesn't rotate when crossmember comes out?

5. If someone has a write up or youtube on this please let me know.

Thanks for the help

 

[neoworm]

1. No, just keep an eye out that the fan doesn't hit the rad when you are muscling the tranny out., unlikely. removing the shroud is ez in any case.
2.Yes, with plugs, no. I would just drain it.
3. Black is fine. The green tube is for SLL coolant. You're dealing with oil.
4. No
5. ?

 

[MattMud]

1. No, just keep an eye out that the fan doesn't hit the rad when you are muscling the tranny out., unlikely. removing the shroud is ez in any case.
2.Yes, with plugs, no. I would just drain it.
3. Black is fine. The green tube is for SLL coolant. You're dealing with oil.
4. No
5. ?

Thank you!

 

[neoworm]

That FIPG that comes in the green box, i forget the P/N, is really expensive. If that's what they gave you hold on to it. It's good for sealing the T-Stat housing to the water pump if you are using SLL coolant. SLL will eventually eat through the black stuff.

 

[YardPig]

A rear main seal? Are you sure...?

 

[MattMud]

YardPig - I think so but let me explain. I can see an active drip (like every 20 seconds after I park it) from the bottom lip edge of the bell housing/engine where that small access plate is. It is oil and not the redish trans fluid. I can't see any oil coming from above like from the valve covers, etc. I can't see well into the V between the banks but would think that if it were leaking into the V it would drip AROUND the sides of the bell housing and such. Am I right about that?

From what I have read, it is not likely the RMS but the O ring just above it that often fails before the RMS. I'm fine with drips (my other 5 Cruisers and my Tacoma all drip - oil is cheap) but this is FAR more rapid.

All help and ideas welcome! I have it up on blocks but haven't started on the removal yet.

 

[neoworm]

My money is on the oring

 

[YardPig]

Have you inspected inside yet? Oil leak found - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/oil-leak-found.984701/

 

[Malleus]

Recently bought an 02 Cruiser with 279k. I have a few of them but this one is losing a quart a week of oil. Have a new RMS, the O ring, and the fipg. I searched for a write up on this but no luck. Questions:

1. At AT-28 the FSM talks about removing the radiator and trans cooler and shroud. Is that needed?

2. Can I pull trans/transfer and NOT drain fluid? If so, how to plug cooler lines? If i have to drain isnt that “bad” as I’ve read to leave trans fluid alone?

3. Toyo dealer gave me a tube of black fipg but said their techs use the green fipg and gave me a tube of that. Which is correct?

4. Do i need to support enging with floor jack so it doesn't rotate when crossmember comes out?

5. If someone has a write up or youtube on this please let me know.

Thanks for the help

I'm lost, are you pulling the engine or not? The FSM procedure assumes you pull the entire drivetrain (less driveshafts, of course). That's why you have to remove the radiator and cooler; you can't lift the engine, w/ its friends, out over the lip. You also have to remove the upper sheet metal in front of the radiator. That way you only have to clear the bumper (which I would also remove - repainting that thing is costly).

If you're not pulling the engine, you should support the rear end, because the drivetrain is supported on three points, the two engine mounts and the xmsn crossmember.

There is no science behind "don't mess with the ATF". However, if you're pulling the xmsn, change the fluid. It needs to be changed regularly, unless you have a sealed unit, which you don't.

Having said all that, you don't have to remove the xmsn to change the rear main. You only have to create enough room to work in. Removing the driveshaft and sliding the xmsn back is what most people would advise, but my feeling is, you;re 90% of the way out, just pull it and clean and inspect while you have the opportunity. You'll never have a better opportunity to do so.

I haven't see it (or looked, for that matter) but maybe @2001LC has a post or two; he seems to have touched everything else on this model.

 

[MattMud]

Thanks. I’m not pulling engine. I’ll slide back on trans jack and swap rms and O ring. But, per the other responses and linked threads above, i’ll pull the inspection plate to make sure its wet inside AND theck the PCV valve before pulling it apart.

 

[MattMud]

Status: I did a few things to bulldog where this oil is coming from based on the recommendations above and the linked threads. I pulled the PCV valve and it shakes freely. So, no pressure pushing oil out through weak seals. I pulled the little inspection plate on the bell housing. The flex plate wasn't dry but only had a very light film of oil on it (not even enough to accumulate on my finger tip). The inside bottom horizontal edge of the bell housing (sticking my finger inside between the teeth of the flex plate and the bell housing) was the same. So, I don't think it's the RMS or the O ring. Looking around, there are many wet spots but the main area where there is fresh oil is on the driver side up near where the driver side motor mount is and just above it. There is a metal heat shield just above the O2 sensor that is wet. But, the clear/clean oil I could see easiest is the oil hanging on the plug for the O2 sensor. It appears the there is either oil trickling down the O2 wire harness or "shooting" a couple inches out from the upper oil pan seal? Without pressure I don't think it's spraying/shooting out from that upper oil pan area but it is about 2-3 inches away laterally. I didn't torque the lower oil pan bolts but just snugged them a bit more all the way around. I wiped everything that was super wet down to see if it drips or accumulates over night. Finally, it hasn't dripped much since I parked it on Saturday up on blocks. It seems to only really drip rapidly right after I drive it and for several hours afterward. One thought is that when the oil is pumped it gets freely to the spot that is leaking. When it settles for a while it collects in the pan and doesn't have an active way to get out. Question on that is does all of the oil (6-7 quarts) rest in the lower oil pan below that gasket such that the only way out is through the drain plug?

Thanks for the help!

 

[2001LC]

Rear main seal leaks are not common. Unless HM (high mileage) oil used. Which if HM oil used, in time every rubber engine seal will leak.

Very often head (valve) cover leak. This oil travel back and down engine.

Oil from from weep hole is most often, t-belt tensoner pulley bolt threads not sealed. I once, I've seen 1 crank seal leak. But it's was not the factory crank seal.

Oil dip stick O-rings almost always weep.

Rule of thumb.
Check and record all oil levels (engine, PS & transmission, gear boxes). Watch for which level drops, if any.
Get pictures of all oily areas.
Clean all areas spotless top to bottom of engine and oily areas.
Get pictures of cleaned engine, and of areas that were oily.
Look over areas that were oil, after each time it's run. Look for point where oil first appears.

Take and post good clear pictures, is very helpful.

 

[MattMud]

Thank you. I’ll follow that protocol and report back. As far as cleaning, can i spray engine with engine degreaser and pressure wash it all off?

 

[2001LC]

Yes.

Start by vacuuming out any nest under intake manifold. Also, lightly wet battery and dump baking soda (neutralize acid) on it, then rinse off.

Best if engine cold as you start to de-grease & wash. Start washing from bottom up. Then as you get around alternator, serpentine belt & top of engine have engine running. Avoid direct spray into alternator, belt and pulleys. Have front of vehicle high than rear end, as you wash top of engine. This is so water that enters the engine valley, will flow out rear weep holes in valley. Do not spray directly on firewall or under hood black mats. Do not excessively spray fuse box (spray top downward only), wire blocks or looms.

Also avoid excessively was around coils/spark plugs. If coil boot have not been replaced. Water will wash sand into spark plugs tubes, pass the shrunken old coil top seals. Then when we remove spark plugs, sand drops into cylinders. But do wash around the head cover gasket and below very well.
In the 98-02 engine, we've a rubber grommet the PCV seats into on LH head. This rubber grommet if not replaced in somewhat recent past (5 yrs more or less), will also have shrunken. Water can enter between PCV and grommet also washing in sand. So do not linker in these areas.
If you've shop air blowing off sand/dust first, from top of engine (head covers up), is good idea.

Good time to clean radiator fins. Be advised: Weak serpentine belt, idler pulley and tensioner pulley bearings will start signing if bad if they get wet.

I like to air dry with shop air and or drive to dry.

Sometimes we can not run engine. In those cases we some areas of concern. Like if intake manifold bolts loose, which water can then get into intake ports. Which when washing engine running, you'll know as idle will change. This is rare and means someone did not torque intake bolts after a starter job. Additional more care needs taken around serp. belt and alternator. As they're not spinning throwing off water (self drying)

 

[MattMud]

Thanks.

 

[MattMud]

I finally got time to pressure wash the underside and top (valve covers and inside V under intake). Car was running while I did topside. When done, I crawled under and wiped water away from bottom of bell housing. Watched for oil. No oil dripping either side of bell housing. Many drops of oil com in out where divot is by small black inspection plate on bottom of bell housing (see my single finger in the pics). Wipe it, more oils drips out of that divot and accumulating on two semicircular parts of that inspection plate that stick down (see my two fingers in pics). Question: would an upper oil pan gasket leak drip out here? If not, it seems like the RMS is the only thing that would feed into that area behind the inspection plate. Am I right? Thanks.

 

[MattMud]

2001LC - you mention above that tensioner pulley on T-belt is usually main cause of oil coming out weep hole. But I’m talking rear of engine week hole at base of bell housing. Are we talking two different weep holes? See my post from yesterday above.

Also, I’m not talking about a weeping amount of oil. I have six cruisers and most all leak/weep from somewhere. I’m talking a quart a WEEK with this one. When I park it it drips enough in the first few minutes to fill a shot glass. It drips from bell housing.

 

[awesomeissquid]

The inspection plate views into the bell housing. You could have either transmission fluid or engine oil leaking directly into there. Indirectly, you could have other fluids getting into here since the valley at the top of the engine drains into this area as well. Since you have been saying oil we will go with that.

Once the transmission and the engine are separated, the rear of the engine will have the flex plate still attached. Once that is removed, you will see the upper oil pan edge and the rear main seal. So, your oil could be leaking from the upper oil pan, but I kind of doubt that is the case. The rear main seal would be my guess, either the crank seal or the o-ring.

The FSM calls for the oil pans to be removed to get to the RMS. The reason for this is the RMS is part of the sealing surface that the oil pan gets installed against with FIPG. I think I recall reading about some individuals that had removed and installed without removing the pan, but I have never done that. I think it involves removing the pins for reinstall and then installing them after the plate was in. If you go that route I would do some reading on that.

 

[2001LC]

2001LC - you mention above that tensioner pulley on T-belt is usually main cause of oil coming out weep hole. But I’m talking rear of engine week hole at base of bell housing. Are we talking two different weep holes? See my post from yesterday above.

Also, I’m not talking about a weeping amount of oil. I have six cruisers and most all leak/weep from somewhere. I’m talking a quart a WEEK with this one. When I park it it drips enough in the first few minutes to fill a shot glass. It drips from bell housing.

Timing belt weep hole is at front of engine, under large drive belt pulley (harmonic balancer). The weep hole at rear of engine on bottom of bell housing, which you're pointing to. Is indication of rear main (engine oil) seal leak if adding engine oil or transmission leak. Let it set an dry out after washing. Then watch for oil after engine runs for a while. 1 qt. a week engine oil, is a lot if you drive 5 miles even if driving 5K miles a week. I would not be surprised if you've many oil leak points.

 

[sunfic]

I suggest you take look at the edge of oil pan. the oil can travel all the way from front side of the engine to the back through this path and make it hard to id where is the real leaking point. If you do see the oil is all around the pan, you can spend more time at the front side of the engine and try to see where is the highest weep point.