How to slow down the 80 from rocking so much while wheeling - body control (1 Viewer)

[alia176]

Also you can try to lower your cg.

If you can move any weight lower it will help.

That is always been paramount in my 80 and I've done everything I can to lower the COG by moving to a 3-inch lift.

 

[Delta VS]

Sounds like you would really benefit from adjustable shocks. The only ones that will deliver what you are looking for (both comp and rebound adjustability) are:

Dobs
Slinky stage FIVE (external bypass)
OME BP-51

I think the Slinky/Icon are the only of this bunch that have spherical bearing on the bottom of the rear shock. Those bearings absolutely do not need to be rebuilt every year or two though. I’ll check the dobinsons on the shelf when I get to the shop, I just can’t remember off the top of my head. The Icons that have been on my personal rig have been abused for the last 2 years with zero issues (I have taken them apart a couple times to get valving dialed for my 6800 lb pig and will be adding the adjusters next).

The BP-51s are available in a longer length last I heard. Harder to come by, but @cruiseroutfit should be able to easily get them for you, or at least answer your questions about them.

If you’re having a body that jostles back and forth it’s most likely you don’t have enough compression or rebound damping. This is going to be the case will all gas strut style shocks for a 7k vehicle, as far as I know (mayyyyybe the Tough Dog or whatever the ones @TRAIL TAILOR imports are better suited for overweight vehicles? Pretty sure those are larger diameter).

Again, I really don’t think you’re going to find the performance you’re looking for unless you go with a bigger shock (typically only available in the rebuildable style). 2.5” diameter body is a real game changer. Yes, they are more work to get set up exactly right (but at least you can do that, not going to happen with a sealed shock, period), but once you have a recipe you like, servicing really doesn’t take much.

 

[alia176]

Sounds like you would really benefit from adjustable shocks. The only ones that will deliver what you are looking for (both comp and rebound adjustability) are:

Dobs
Slinky stage FIVE (external bypass)
OME BP-51

I think the Slinky/Icon are the only of this bunch that have spherical bearing on the bottom of the rear shock. Those bearings absolutely do not need to be rebuilt every year or two though. I’ll check the dobinsons on the shelf when I get to the shop, I just can’t remember off the top of my head. The Icons that have been on my personal rig have been abused for the last 2 years with zero issues (I have taken them apart a couple times to get valving dialed for my 6800 lb pig and will be adding the adjusters next).

The BP-51s are available in a longer length last I heard. Harder to come by, but @cruiseroutfit should be able to easily get them for you, or at least answer your questions about them.

If you’re having a body that jostles back and forth it’s most likely you don’t have enough compression or rebound damping. This is going to be the case will all gas strut style shocks for a 7k vehicle, as far as I know (mayyyyybe the Tough Dog or whatever the ones @TRAIL TAILOR imports are better suited for overweight vehicles? Pretty sure those are larger diameter).

Again, I really don’t think you’re going to find the performance you’re looking for unless you go with a bigger shock (typically only available in the rebuildable style). 2.5” diameter body is a real game changer. Yes, they are more work to get set up exactly right (but at least you can do that, not going to happen with a sealed shock, period), but once you have a recipe you like, servicing really doesn’t take much.

Thank you for your excellent feedback, I'm learning a ton through these posts.

I'm off to take my 15 yo daughter to her first Pick N Pull experience, right after a Waffle House breakfast. She's gonna lie her way through the front door 'cause of the 16yo min age requirement

 

[FirstToy]

Ali,
Relatively inexpensive upgrade that made a big difference for me was adding timbren rear bumpstops.
(offroad bumps are taller than the regular ones - there are two versions for the 80)
They make the suspension feel smooth, instead of smacking the bumpstops.
On the whoop-dees where you can skim the tops smooth or bottom out on every valley, they make it much more controlled.
As one of the steps to improvement, it's a good one.

 

[alia176]

Ali,
Relatively inexpensive upgrade that made a big difference for me was adding timbren rear bumpstops.
(offroad bumps are taller than the regular ones - there are two versions for the 80)
They make the suspension feel smooth, instead of smacking the bumpstops.
On the whoop-dees where you can skim the tops smooth or bottom out on every valley, they make it much more controlled.
As one of the steps to improvement, it's a good one.

Yup, I need to think about the timbrens. Please provide details and vendor, if you'd.

 

[Bludozer]

Toss that RTT and join the poorboi smooth roof crew.

 

[SNLC]

You're right, it is an old cruiser but that has nothing to do with body movements. An old cruiser with all new bushings, properly valved shocks with the correct load carrying springs can be all made to operate within the parameters. Suspension is suspension, age is only relevant when you're trying to make old, dilapidated parts perform miracles.

I can bomb 2ft whoops at 40mph or more no worries in my Cruiser and do every time I go out.
So, you can bomb on 2ft whoops, which tells me your suspension is dialed in and you're not bending the front axle housing. This tells me you have a good jounce solution. Please tell us all details on your setup and pics or two will go a long way

Heavy duty coils without heavy duty weight won’t help either. - I mentioned on the first post, this is a 7k beast, which I think is pretty much the norm for folks who camp and move daily. What do the kids call it these days - oh yeah, overlanding. Are you thinking that my coils aren't matched to my load?

I have BP51’s that I have tuned to suit my Cruiser and the type of wheeling I do. Please tell us more of this "tuning" process or are you turning a knob on the res? Your sig line has no mention of your specific setup so I'd like to see the info on your lift and the model # shocks you're currently running.

So suspension not setup correctly can do funky things like unloading very easily. I agree with this 100% and this takes time and money. Curious, do the BP51s accomodate a 3" lifted 80? I see BP51s for 2.5" on Slee's site.

Thanks for the input, think there's a lot to learn from your answers.

If you really want the goods, call Filthy MotorSports and order a set of Kings. You will need a bunch of measurements and weights though. They will be built to suit your Cruiser.

You can also do the same with Fox, call Accutune for those. They may ask you convert to an eye shock vs a pin which means fab and welding.

Cheers

 

[Rwhat]

I had the same problem with the left to right swaying. Would tire me out. I have custom valved Fox 2.0 resi’s. Usually about 7k lbs loaded up. Once I changed to Slee 4” springs from OME J’s and a delta rear panhanrd bracket it was a night and day difference. Even the guys behind me noticed the huge amount of sway was gone.

just my 2 cents.

 

[SNLC]

Also I am low lift, 861/862’s. I am not super heavy, all seats out except for front and my camping gear is light weight white water and backpacking gear.

It never bottoms out at speed. I also pick my lines.

I would type more but I am going camping for three days and need to pack my Cruiser and get out of town.

Cheers

 

[jcardona1]

Get a set of real shocks and take it to a shock tuner. The problem is you're relying on one-size-fits-all parts when the reality is you need custom tuning to suit your needs and type of use. Shock tuning is the single most important variable in high speed off-road driving. A few years ago a member here built an 80 to race in the Hammers. He had posted before and after videos of the shock tuning he had done, it was a night & day difference in performance and body control.

 

[LandLocked93]

I like the stubborn resolve. And indeed money is required.
@RFB could probably add some input here. 6" lift on 40s? He's all over the place and it doesn't look like his rig suffers from alot of what you describe (it might tho) and I'd bet his loadout is at least as much as yours. But talk about full-time field testing of things...he's gotta have the answers or at least point you in a direction.

 

[RFB]

I like the stubborn resolve. And indeed money is required.
@RFB could probably add some input here. 6" lift on 40s? He's all over the place and it doesn't look like his rig suffers from alot of what you describe (it might tho) and I'd bet his loadout is at least as much as yours. But talk about full-time field testing of things...he's gotta have the answers or at least point you in a direction.

6plus1 on 37s with the @Delta VS panhard bracket in place shes got minimal roll and Ive done some stupid trails . I run a whiteline AUS spec rear sway and nothing up front because I kept ripping them off.

 

[LandLocked93]

6plus1 on 37s with the @Delta VS panhard bracket in place shes got minimal roll and Ive done some stupid trails . I run a whiteline AUS spec rear sway and nothing up front because I kept ripping them off.

What's your shock/spring setup?

 

[FirstToy]

Yup, I need to think about the timbrens. Please provide details and vendor, if you'd.

I ordered directly from them

Active Off-Road Bump Stops SKU# ABSTORLC1 - Rear Kit (ABSTORLC1)
Timbren
sales@timbren.com
1-800-263-3113

There is a steel bracket that the rubber bolts to. It is a flat, round plate. I had to cut the sides of the circle off to clear the coilsprings.
It will make sense when you see it. Super simple, quick cuts with a cutoff wheel and a touch of spray paint.
DS bumpstop was very close to my coilspring.
If you have an adj panhard, you can fine tune to center the axle and give more clearance.
Delta bracket and fine tuning my panhard solved it.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

King 3" Bypass triple tubes, piggy front and remote resi rears with individual adjustments and IF you have the time and coin I'll have my coil maker in Australia spin up true dual rate progressive coils for your application.

J

Georg @Valley Hybrids crew installing a set of my TourFlex XH Dual rate tapered wires on this 200.

 

[george_tlc]

^ my solution is to get my first son into vehicles at an early age (2nd son has followed a similar path)

Then continue nurturing the vehicle/4wd/camping stuff for many years. He decides to get into mechanical engineering and desert racing/pre-runner stuff becomes more and more interesting to him. Graduates, gets a job, works for a year, changes job and is now working at King.

You can imagine that our 80 will soon be set up with custom King shocks and by someone that has access to all the good stuff and the tuning knowledge...

Of course this plan has been about 24 years in the making and has cost considerable sums of money. But it is feasible and one way to resolve the shock selection/tuning process

cheers,
george.

 

[leonard_nemoy]

It sounds like you just need to hit the gym and work on those core muscles. This solution would be healthy. Plus by saving $$$$ and improving your physique I am sure the wife would be grateful.

Haha, JK. But in all serious whenever I have wheeled with my sway bar's disconnected I have experienced a dramatic increase in the kind of ride discomfort you are describing during the type of high speed driving you are describing.

I can't help but wonder if having your sway bar disconnected is part of your issue. I found the difference in handeling was annoying enough on my rig that I just quit disconnecting the sway bar because it wasn't worth all the extra rocking motion I was experiencing on dirt roads.

 

[baldilocks]

I’m jumping in here after reading only the opening post. Your rig is too heavy for the springs. Are your shocks the foam cell pro or standard?

I ran Slee 4” heavy progressive coils for five years and then decided to try a set of rear Dobinson 3” tapered coils to match the fronts I’d been running four years already. Note that I run a 1” spacer atop the fronts and 30mm rear (not with the slee springs). At this time I was also running Dobinson yellow shocks.

Over the 18 months, or so, since installing the rear tapered coils I’ve noticed a feel of reduced rear suspension control. I also smack the rear bumper more often due to less ground clearance caused by more squat.

I just finished the first rock crawling adventure on the Ironman foam cell pro shocks that I installed recently and had hoped would answer the wallowy feel out back. This feel only happens when loaded and wheeling rough trails, otherwise, the tapered coils are very nice.

Much to my dismay, although better, the bouncy feel and wallowy feel remains. This happens when a spring is under rated and compresses to far for the amount of load applied and then has the ability to unload more energy than if it hadn’t compressed as much. I learned this when tuning my youngest sons dirt bike rear suspension years ago. There is a fine line between not enough spring and too much.

The slee 4” heavies are going back in before my next trip. Load it full of, what ever, and maintain 4” of lift. Drop the bumper on less rocks, sway less, ride level loaded, ride a bit stink bug unloaded. Slee’s ad says “designed to resist body roll”. Indeed they do.

Dobinson heavy tapered springs = 20mm thick

Slee heavy 4” progressive springs = 22mm thick

Due to design, the Slee springs do not ride harshly unloaded.

 

[FirstToy]

^ my solution is to get my first son into vehicles at an early age (2nd son has followed a similar path)

Then continue nurturing the vehicle/4wd/camping stuff for many years. He decides to get into mechanical engineering and desert racing/pre-runner stuff becomes more and more interesting to him. Graduates, gets a job, works for a year, changes job and is now working at King.

You can imagine that our 80 will soon be set up with custom King shocks and by someone that has access to all the good stuff and the tuning knowledge...

Of course this plan has been about 24 years in the making and has cost considerable sums of money. But it is feasible and one way to resolve the shock selection/tuning process

cheers,
george.

You play the long game, George!

 

[alia176]

Morning gents,
Thank you for your inputs, I really appreciate the vast amount of real life feedback in this thread. My responses are below.

If you really want the goods, call Filthy MotorSports and order a set of Kings. You will need a bunch of measurements and weights though. They will be built to suit your Cruiser.

You can also do the same with Fox, call Accutune for those. They may ask you convert to an eye shock vs a pin which means fab and welding.

Cheers

Great info, thank you sir.

I had the same problem with the left to right swaying. Would tire me out. I have custom valved Fox 2.0 resi’s. Usually about 7k lbs loaded up. Once I changed to Slee 4” springs from OME J’s and a delta rear panhanrd bracket it was a night and day difference. Even the guys behind me noticed the huge amount of sway was gone.

just my 2 cents.

This is interesting as I didn't think a any 2.0 shock would be able to control the body wallowing.

Get a set of real shocks and take it to a shock tuner. The problem is you're relying on one-size-fits-all parts when the reality is you need custom tuning to suit your needs and type of use. Shock tuning is the single most important variable in high speed off-road driving. A few years ago a member here built an 80 to race in the Hammers. He had posted before and after videos of the shock tuning he had done, it was a night & day difference in performance and body control.

Agreed, one size does NOT fit all. I may have to suck it up and move away from consummable type shocks into what I call Gucci shocks

6plus1 on 37s with the @Delta VS panhard bracket in place shes got minimal roll and Ive done some stupid trails . I run a whiteline AUS spec rear sway and nothing up front because I kept ripping them off.

Interesting, no front sway bar.

I ordered directly from them

Active Off-Road Bump Stops SKU# ABSTORLC1 - Rear Kit (ABSTORLC1)
Timbren
sales@timbren.com
1-800-263-3113

There is a steel bracket that the rubber bolts to. It is a flat, round plate. I had to cut the sides of the circle off to clear the coilsprings.
It will make sense when you see it. Super simple, quick cuts with a cutoff wheel and a touch of spray paint.
DS bumpstop was very close to my coilspring.
If you have an adj panhard, you can fine tune to center the axle and give more clearance.
Delta bracket and fine tuning my panhard solved it.

Thank you James, I'll follow suit. What did you do for the front?

King 3" Bypass triple tubes, piggy front and remote resi rears with individual adjustments and IF you have the time and coin I'll have my coil maker in Australia spin up true dual rate progressive coils for your application.

J

Jason - please educate us why a set of progressive springs are advisable even though my rig is a dedicated wheeling rig with a constant load in the cargo? Just a reminder that I'm running Whiteline front+rear sway bars and I disconnected the front one for this trip. The side to side movement was noticeably less but I was still hanging on to the left grab handle frequently.

Haha, JK. But in all serious whenever I have wheeled with my sway bar's disconnected I have experienced a dramatic increase in the kind of ride discomfort you are describing during the type of high speed driving you are describing.

I can't help but wonder if having your sway bar disconnected is part of your issue. I found the difference in handeling was annoying enough on my rig that I just quit disconnecting the sway bar because it wasn't worth all the extra rocking motion I was experiencing on dirt roads.

I've been wheeling with both Whiteline sway bars connected and this was the first time with the front disco'ed. The body wallowing was less, a LOT less but could be even more less with the correct suspension. I'm thinking that when the front axle moves up/down, the job of the sway bar is to move the body along with it, no? Sway bars connect the two together so they try to move together. Meanwhile the occupants just go along for the ride!

I'm now wondering if I should put the OEM front sway bar back in and leave it connected for the next trip to UT

The slee 4” heavies are going back in before my next trip. Load it full of, what ever, and maintain 4” of lift. Drop the bumper on less rocks, sway less, ride level loaded, ride a bit stink bug unloaded. Slee’s ad says “designed to resist body roll”. Indeed they do.

Dobinson heavy tapered springs = 20mm thick

Slee heavy 4” progressive springs = 22mm thick

Due to design, the Slee springs do not ride harshly unloaded.

This is interesting info as I hadn't thought about overloading my springs. I think the Slee 4" heavies are 400 lb/inch. I don't know if the Dobinson heavies are the same rate but these are my current springs:

DOBINSONS REAR COIL SPRINGS FOR TOYOTA LAND CRUISER 80 SERIES 1990-1997 3.0" LIFT WITH 440LBS LOAD(C59-171)
DOBINSONS FRONT COIL SPRINGS FOR TOYOTA LAND CRUISER 80 SERIES 1990-1997 3.0" LIFT WITH 220LBS LOAD(C59-170)

My old Slee Heavies were no longer holding their height and I wanted to lower by COG by going to the 3".

I'm not bottoming out either end unless I hit the whoopdidoos at speeds, which is usually on accident. So, I'm thinking of getting Timbrens on all four corners to help with bottoming out. But, I don't know the spring rate of my current Dobinson rear coils. I can measure the spring OD and # of coils and report back if someone could do the same for their Slee heavy rears.

Tapered vs/dual rate/vs progressive rate, etc are confusing to me and don't think I need them since my rear load doesn't change. I'm also not going for sexy flexy, otherwise, I wouldn't have Whiteline front+rear HD sway bars. But, if I need to change my way of thinking, I'm all about it.

As I said before, a good suspension does cost money but I need to learn the dynamics of my suspension and balance that with my wallet size.

Thank you all for your valuable insights.