Seeking suspension advice -- unique case (1 Viewer)

[BloggerL]

Hi, all. As I describe in my build thread, I'm tailoring my 200 for work use. This will involve driving around the country to rural properties for documentary film-making out in nature, as well as blogging about my trips as I drive. So 90% of my time will be on paved roads, but the vehicle needs to be able to handle a variety of offroad conditions the other 10% of the time.

In addition to these fairly standard road/offroad considerations, another one has emerged: I have mounted a robotic production camera inside the vehicle for blogging, and the small bumps in the road subject it to a lot of stress.

I'm on KO2s, stock size, that I run around 40PSI for everyday driving. Vehicle has a couple hundred pounds of mods in front, will have a few hundred pounds of mods and "constant" recovery gear in the back, 100 to 200 variable pounds on the roof, and 100 to 400 variable pounds of cargo in the rear seat and hatch area.

I'd love to find a suspension solution that offers better smoothing out of the small bumps for a softer, smoother ride over paved roads. This will help protect my gear and facilitate blogging while in motion. But I'd like to retain full offroad capability. I know almost nothing about suspension systems. Are there systems that offer a staged approach--soft at the beginning of their range to handle the little stuff, and stiffer through the rest of the range to handle heavy hits and heavy cargo? Right now, I'm at stock height with stock suspension, but I'd consider lifting a bit.

 

[Sandroad]

Well, from my amateur experience with photography, I think you’re looking at the wrong solution. Instead of vehicle suspension, look at camera suspension. Get a camera mount that provides the equivalent of a Steadicam mount and your blog video will be smooth.

 

[gaijin]

I'm on KO2s, stock size, that I run around 40PSI for everyday driving. Vehicle has a couple hundred pounds of mods in front, will have a few hundred pounds of mods and "constant" recovery gear in the back, 100 to 200 variable pounds on the roof, and 100 to 400 variable pounds of cargo in the rear seat and hatch area.

When you say, "stock size," for the BFG KO2 tires, I assume you mean LT285/60R18/D 118/115S. If so, at 40psi you are running underinflated - this may be a dangerous situation.

The Recommended Cold Tire Inflation Pressure for those LT285/60R18/D 118/115S tires on your LC200 is 46psi Front/Rear.

At 40psi you are running a Load Limit, per tire, 216 pounds below the required minimum for a stock vehicle. In light of the added weight you either already have added or are contemplating adding, I strongly suggest you increase your cold tire pressure to 46psi which will accommodate all weights up to the GVWR of your vehicle.

HTH

 

[Trd4rvapeur]

Is this a lx570 with AHC or lc200? The lx's AHC can handle all the weight and still have the car level. The ride is very smooth (can't compare to a lc200 because i haven't had the pleasure or driving one). In the lx you have sport, comfort switches. I agree with sandroad, upgrade your mounts to a gyro mount

 

[Big Timber]

Yeah you need to be looking at something for the camera, not the vehicle. But still air up those tires like Gaijin said.

 

[BloggerL]

When you say, "stock size," for the BFG KO2 tires, I assume you mean LT285/60R18/D 118/115S. If so, at 40psi you are running underinflated - this may be a dangerous situation.

The Recommended Cold Tire Inflation Pressure for those LT285/60R18/D 118/115S tires on your LC200 is 46psi Front/Rear.

At 40psi you are running a Load Limit, per tire, 216 pounds below the required minimum for a stock vehicle. In light of the added weight you either already have added or are contemplating adding, I strongly suggest you increase your cold tire pressure to 46psi which will accommodate all weights up to the GVWR of your vehicle.

HTH

Thanks for this info. I will air up!

 

[TeCKis300]

Some thoughts:

1) Tires are going to be the best suspension you can get. If you're on stock sized tires, there's a lot of opportunity here for smoother ride and capability: larger diameter tires, tire with better NVH. I would highly recommend stepping up to a 33" class tire - something like a 285/65R18. KO2s while incredibly durable, leave something to be desired for ride quality and NVH. I'd highly recommend Toyo AT3s.

2) Suspension - Lots of choices on the market. I would recommend a solid street type suspension, rather than the many race type suspensions that require short rebuild intervals, use harsher solid mounts that are prone to additional NVH and squeaks (which wouldn't be great on camera). Bilstein's have been well reviewed and I would consider this as the best balance of quality and performance available to the LC200. I would caution the want for upper UCAs as they are prone to durability and squeak issues.

3) At the risk of offending our RCTIP guru @gaijin , there's not need for 46 PSI. The RCTIP for the same tire size on LX, a heavier vehicle, is 41 PSI. Therefore from a load perspective, you're absolutely safe where you are, or maybe 1 PSI higher. Enjoy the smoother ride.

 

[BloggerL]

Some thoughts:

1) Tires are going to be the best suspension you can get. If you're on stock sized tires, there's a lot of opportunity here for smoother ride and capability: larger diameter tires, tire with better NVH. I would highly recommend stepping up to a 33" class tire - something like a 285/65R18. KO2s while incredibly durable, leave something to be desired for ride quality and NVH. I'd highly recommend Toyo AT3s.

2) Suspension - Lots of choices on the market. I would recommend a solid street type suspension, rather than the many race type suspensions that require short rebuild intervals, use harsher solid mounts that are prone to additional NVH and squeaks (which wouldn't be great on camera). Bilstein's have been well reviewed and I would consider this as the best balance of quality and performance available to the LC200. I would caution the want for upper UCAs as they are prone to durability and squeak issues.

3) At the risk of offending our RCTIP guru @gaijin , there's not need for 46 PSI. The RCTIP for the same tire size on LX, a heavier vehicle, is 41 PSI. Therefore from a load perspective, you're absolutely safe where you are, or maybe 1 PSI higher. Enjoy the smoother ride.

Thank you for this perspective!. I will look further into tire options.

 

[BloggerL]

Well, from my amateur experience with photography, I think you’re looking at the wrong solution. Instead of vehicle suspension, look at camera suspension. Get a camera mount that provides the equivalent of a Steadicam mount and your blog video will be smooth.

I use a number of stabilizers and gimbals. But that's not an option for this particular rig for various reasons (a technical/creative conversation better reserved for DM if you'd like to discuss). I'd just like to smooth out the smaller bumps to protect the gear over the longer haul. Smoothing out the bumps will also help protect all my gear that will be in storage inside the vehicle.

 

[jamgolf]

High amplitude, low-frequency movements:
A gimbal will help with big movements that can and do happen when driving off-road.
A very soft/plush suspension can also help absorb such large movements.

Low amplitude, high-frequency movements:
For smaller high-frequency movements, you can rely on in-camera image stabilization such as GoPro's hypersmooth algorithm etc.
Generally airing down tires can make the ride smoother and help with high-frequency vibrations.

 

[BloggerL]

So I'm hearing a lot on tires and a suggestion for the Bilsteins. I wonder if anyone else has experience with the Bilsteins?

 

[CharlieS]

I disagree with teckis300, having run the King 2.5 on a 200 they are not noisy, and ride a ton better. The tuner that sold them to me (Ben at Filthy Motorsports) said that rebuild frequency for street driven vehicles are much longer than the oft repeated short service intervals that I keep on reading about in this forum. Factory HE suspension isn't half bad (I put one on my 200 for the sale at the buyers preference), but the Kings are night and day better. I suspect that the remote reservoirs Icon, King 2.5 and BP-51 are probably substantially similar for the use case you'd describe. The Kings have the upside of being able to be tuned to your exact uses for a nominal fee. I'd find a trusted shock tuner (I had great luck with Ben) and spend some time figuring out what would work best. Internet forums are great, but this is an area where some real expertise is beneficial.

 

[ramangain]

Just copy a Top Gear or Grand Tour setup. But, alas, you'd have to downgrade to a Range Rover.

 

[gaijin]

Some thoughts:

3) At the risk of offending our RCTIP guru @gaijin , there's not need for 46 PSI. The RCTIP for the same tire size on LX, a heavier vehicle, is 41 PSI. Therefore from a load perspective, you're absolutely safe where you are, or maybe 1 PSI higher. Enjoy the smoother ride.

This is simply wrong, and potentially dangerous. I have no idea why @TeCKis300 continues to put out such bad advice

 

[TeCKis300]

This is simply wrong, and potentially dangerous. I have no idea why @TeCKis300 continues to put out such bad advice

Right, my prerogative is to put out dangerous advice. I do the same engineering aircraft as I like to see them take risks. Let's put that aside and have a logical discussion here for a moment.

You yourself recommend 41 PSI RCTIP for the tire size in question, for a heavier LX570. 46 PSI RCTIP for a lighter LC.

Outside of branding, it might be easy to forget they are both 200-series vehicles. As much as you like to preach a rigid derivation of load limits, the conclusion goes against the fact that both vehicles as 200-series chassis, have the same axle ratings and GVWRs - and would be equally safe at the lower derived LX pressures.

The fact that you're recommending higher pressures for a generally lighter LC (vs LX that's heavier by 300-500lbs), should tell you that your theory is fundamentally suspect. If it's safe for the LX, it will also be imminently safe for the LC. Sure, it's reasonable to tailor up based on other factors, but dangerous load handing is not the reason.

It's very likely Toyota didn't arrive at stock tire pressures (that your basing your conclusion on) solely by load ratings. They possibly tailored up for reasons of handling, tire rollover, stability.

 

[gaijin]

Right, prerogative is to put out bad advice. Let's have a logical discussion here.

You yourself recommend 41 PSI RCTIP for the tire size in question, for a heavier LX570. 46 PSI RCTIP for a lighter LC.

Outside of branding, it might be easy to forget they are both 200-series vehicles. As much as you like to preach a rigid derivation of load limits, the conclusion goes against the fact that both vehicles as 200-series chassis, have the same axle ratings and GVWRs - and would be equally safe at the lowered derived LX pressures.

The fact that you're recommending higher pressures for a generally lighter LC (vs LX), should tell you that your theory is fundamentally suspect.

It's very likely Toyota didn't arrive at stock tire pressures solely by load ratings. They possibly tailored up for reasons of handling, tire rollover, stability.

One can not apply LX570 RCTIP's to a LC200 - as much as you want to believe they are the same vehicle, they are not. Land Cruiser is a 200-series chassis while the LX570 is a 201-series chassis. Toyota recognizes them as different, why can't you?

I've explained the rationale behind RCTIP many times, but if you don't believe me, then have a careful read of this Toyo Tire monograph on the subject (updated for 2020): Guide to Application of Load and Inflation Tables

Since the RCTIP is based on Toyota's RCTIP, when you say it is OK to run a lower pressure on a Land Cruiser you are saying that the RCTIP on the door jamb placard of the Land Cruiser is wrong. What proves your argument faulty is to simply look at stock tires and stock RCTIP for the Land Cruiser; i.e. P285/60R18 tires @33psi. You are arguing it is OK to run a lower pressure than 33psi because a different pressure would be OK on a different vehicle - sorry, that's just wrong.

If you don't get it by now, I guess you never will.

Folks are free to run whatever tire pressures they want - but they should at least base their decision on facts, not feelings.

HTH

 

[afgman786]

To get the damping you want and be good for wheeling or anything else, Kings or any other tunable set up would definitely be your best bet. Going to cost more than a gereric OME, ToughDog, Bilstein. But you get that custom valving specific for you.

I'm happy with my OME setup, it feels smoother on FS roads and quicker gravel pace compared to my stock suspension. But, I feel you would need better with what you're describing

 

[linuxgod]

@gaijin - How does the Toyo PDF work? I'm assuming since I'm rating for an axle with 2 wheels I use dual?

If I look up my size (LT285/17R17) it says single is 2215# @ 35 psi, dual is 2015#. The LC is rated at 7395# with 4300# for the rear axle IIRC. 40psi dual is 2210, so if I take the tire load difference divided by the psi difference I think I get approximately how many pounds of load per PSI

(2210 - 2015) / (40 - 35) = 39

Then if I split the rear axle weight between both tires (4300 / 2 = 2150) I'm guessing I should be running 38.5 PSI?

2015 + (39*3) = 2132
2015 + (39*4) = 2171

2131 < 2150 < 2171

(Note: I would've thought you'd use the "single" values but IIRC you said the correct PSI for my tires was 37 psi and single would imply I should run something like 33psi which seems very low)

 

[Cruisin911]

I disagree with teckis300, having run the King 2.5 on a 200 they are not noisy, and ride a ton better. The tuner that sold them to me (Ben at Filthy Motorsports) said that rebuild frequency for street driven vehicles are much longer than the oft repeated short service intervals that I keep on reading about in this forum. Factory HE suspension isn't half bad (I put one on my 200 for the sale at the buyers preference), but the Kings are night and day better. I suspect that the remote reservoirs Icon, King 2.5 and BP-51 are probably substantially similar for the use case you'd describe. The Kings have the upside of being able to be tuned to your exact uses for a nominal fee. I'd find a trusted shock tuner (I had great luck with Ben) and spend some time figuring out what would work best. Internet forums are great, but this is an area where some real expertise is beneficial.

This 1000%. Custom valved for you application from Filthy. After wasting money over years on Icons, OME, and Sway-A-Ways, I finally found Kings. I run the 2.5s valved specifically for my application. I run them with my Camburg uppers and have put a number of miles on them now. I will never buy anything else. Hands down the best suspension I have ever run. The other suspension systems are fine and Ive had my challenges with each of them (icons kept breaking down on me, leaking, etc..., OME was just not progressive enough for me and far too harsh, and the sways are no longer in business).

 

[TeCKis300]

I disagree with teckis300, having run the King 2.5 on a 200 they are not noisy, and ride a ton better. The tuner that sold them to me (Ben at Filthy Motorsports) said that rebuild frequency for street driven vehicles are much longer than the oft repeated short service intervals that I keep on reading about in this forum. Factory HE suspension isn't half bad (I put one on my 200 for the sale at the buyers preference), but the Kings are night and day better. I suspect that the remote reservoirs Icon, King 2.5 and BP-51 are probably substantially similar for the use case you'd describe. The Kings have the upside of being able to be tuned to your exact uses for a nominal fee. I'd find a trusted shock tuner (I had great luck with Ben) and spend some time figuring out what would work best. Internet forums are great, but this is an area where some real expertise is beneficial.

I agree with this and I don't meant to take away from Kings as a some of the highest performing suspension systems out there. They didn't earn that reputation by not delivering.

My recommendation for the OP comes from another angle when talking street versus race parts. There are some notable differences between these types that trade performance for durability, and isolation for precision. Some of the major outwardly visible differences
1) Bushings versus spherical bearings - OEMs and street suspensions typically use rubber or urethane bushings for isolation and longer term durability
2) Inverted shocks - These tend to have the hardened shaft higher up on the chassis for protection and long term durability. Versus race that have exposed shafted in the lower orientation.

Kings vs Bilstein below. But you'll find some of the same common trades in ARB BP-51 vs OME. Fortunately, body on frame vehicles do already have body mounts to quell some of the added NVH in the chassis.