CNBC - Did the Land Cruiser Fail in the US? (1 Viewer)
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Markuson
SILVER Star
This is actually an excellent video worth watching with a concise, informative summary of the very interesting history of the LC...it’s partial roots, prompting and direct influence by United States requests and vehicles, and a very nicely balanced narrative. Also input from the LC museum curator—who is a great guy, by the way!!
Worth watching no question.
BUT.......
The title is pretty misleadingly difinitive about the LC getting zapped. They don’t state it is fact. Getting zapped may well happen...but this video really only references ONE report that remains unconfirmed by Toyota.
See minute 1:22...
“At least ONE report holds that Toyota will pull the Land Cruiser from the US around 2023.”
That’s all.
***But a VERY nice video for sure.
Saving it to my list of keepers on YouTube.
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Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
The video references a Forbes article re: Land Cruiser getting the axe, but in that same Forbes article, the writer cites Johnny Lieberman at MotorTrend as the source.
Now I don’t know if Johnny Lieberman has the inside scoop, but he may very well have information the public at large doesn’t.
Might be a good time to look at buying a HE 200... Toyota Is Canceling The Land Cruiser In 2022 And It's About Time
Now I don’t know if Johnny Lieberman has the inside scoop, but he may very well have information the public at large doesn’t.
Might be a good time to look at buying a HE 200... Toyota Is Canceling The Land Cruiser In 2022 And It's About Time
Pleasantly surprised with the video. More substance than so many mainstream news reports these days.
What left me curious was the lack of discussion about the sister vehicle and the combined sales considering both models. As the LX variant has generally outsold the LC model.
I went and digged up the data and threw together a graph. Both individual model sales year to year, and the combined sales when the LX was introduced.
If the LC truly goes discontinued (which I'd like to doubt), the Heritage trim is going to see some serious appreciation in the future.
What left me curious was the lack of discussion about the sister vehicle and the combined sales considering both models. As the LX variant has generally outsold the LC model.
I went and digged up the data and threw together a graph. Both individual model sales year to year, and the combined sales when the LX was introduced.
If the LC truly goes discontinued (which I'd like to doubt), the Heritage trim is going to see some serious appreciation in the future.
All our trucks will see serious appreciation. Or less depreciation.
Nice video. Thanks for sharing it. Frankly, the scarcity of the LC is one of the things that appeals to me. That and the V8
Personally, i don't see Toyota stopping LC from coming here. LC is and has always been Toyota's halo car. Japanese folks are deep in tradition and respect for something that (basically) started the company. Toyota LC has been a slow seller for quite some time...but yet, Toyota still updated it in 2016 (and even added a special edition for 2020). And yes, because it is a slow seller and relatively expensive/labor intensive to make, the redesign itself is far apart. Toyota just basically eats up some of the cost of importing it...and some of that cost also transfers over to the enthusiasts who buys it. They don't need the LC to sell well since their other SUV lines are doing very well. But Toyota needs LC because it is their halo car...the one that boldly shows the world/USA that it can build an ultra-high quality and durable car that lasts for generations. Land Cruiser is Toyota's super car...a Toyota's LFA if you will.
Just my opinion...maybe partly wishful opinion....
Just my opinion...maybe partly wishful opinion....
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I wonder if Toyota did that, then it may eat into the other SUV lines (which is their bread & butter)? A cheap LC will decrease sales of 4runners and Lexus GX along with Sequoia and maybe even Highlander. It will further confuse customers because of too many selections all within same price line.
wouldn’t it be better for toyota to have more of their customers in their best product? One more option isn’t going to confuse buyers, there are already100s of choices.
4runner and Sequoia......one small/nimble, the other big and seats 8.
4runner and Highlander....one off-road/tow but still small, the other roomy and fuel efficient.
Lexus GX and 4runner....one luxury/baby LX....the other cheaper and utilitarian.
Cheap Land Cruiser and ????...how do you differentiate it? And where does it fit? It is not small nor nimble. It does not sit a lot of folks. It is horrible on gas. And even if it is “cheap”, it is still pretty expensive and thirsty and not very luxurious for price point.
bloc
SILVER Star
Wasn’t cutting into 4Runner sales a reason they discontinued the FJC?
Besides, it’s not like a stripped down cruiser would be $30k. We’re talking 50k+, in a market dominated by unsophisticated buyers that just wont understand the point if it doesn’t have navigation and 19-way power seats.
Besides, it’s not like a stripped down cruiser would be $30k. We’re talking 50k+, in a market dominated by unsophisticated buyers that just wont understand the point if it doesn’t have navigation and 19-way power seats.
If a rugged utility vehicle cuts into high profit vehicle margins then how come the JL doesn't get cut because it erodes JCG margins? JGC is their sales leader, though not by much over the JL. Or is it that the JL brings people to the brand and thereby amplifies all sales by driving up excitement? Or is it that the JL is hugely profitable on its own.
This is what I don't get about the 'it will cut into 4R sales' argument. If FCA can make it pencil out I can't believe Toyota couldn't do the same.
It's probably that Toyota doesn't NEED another model in their lineup to achieve their revenue and profit targets for SUVs. RAV4 is their best selling vehicle and the Highlander and 4R are solid performers too. They're a conservative company and I'm guessing there isn't sufficient motivation to take the risk.
Or their revenue model shows an upcoming big hit to petrol vehicles as the climate nonsense continues globally so they're better off climbing the electric/hybrid ladder.
This is what I don't get about the 'it will cut into 4R sales' argument. If FCA can make it pencil out I can't believe Toyota couldn't do the same.
It's probably that Toyota doesn't NEED another model in their lineup to achieve their revenue and profit targets for SUVs. RAV4 is their best selling vehicle and the Highlander and 4R are solid performers too. They're a conservative company and I'm guessing there isn't sufficient motivation to take the risk.
Or their revenue model shows an upcoming big hit to petrol vehicles as the climate nonsense continues globally so they're better off climbing the electric/hybrid ladder.
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bloc
SILVER Star
This.
Plus the Wrangler is a phenomenon unto itself. Hard to compare any other vehicle to it in the market. For every person that wants to get a wrangler and actually use it off road, there are four college-age women that just want one to leave the top and doors off and look cool. The JCG and JL seem to be completely different targets.. JCG is far from rugged.
I think toyota has their vision for where each SUV slots in to the bigger picture and are happy with how things are going, even with the low sales numbers of Landcruisers. Pretty clear (to me) they only keep the cruiser here for the time being specifically because it is the halo vehicle and a proud representation of their history and what they are capable of.
I watched a video a while ago featuring Johnathan Ward who owns Icon - he had a direct line of communication with the president of Toyota (If I recall correctly).
He claimed, counter to what we normally think of Japanese culture being respectful of tradition, that Toyota is actually embarrassed of their old land cruisers - similarly to how an artist may be embarrassed of their old, less sophisticated work.
Based on Johnathan's opinion, the decision to keep or remove the land cruiser won't really be based on heritage.
He claimed, counter to what we normally think of Japanese culture being respectful of tradition, that Toyota is actually embarrassed of their old land cruisers - similarly to how an artist may be embarrassed of their old, less sophisticated work.
Based on Johnathan's opinion, the decision to keep or remove the land cruiser won't really be based on heritage.
So embarrassed that they put every iteration of past Cruiser in their 2020 brochure?
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/2020/landcruiser_ebrochure.pdf
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/2020/landcruiser_ebrochure.pdf
The case for a reduced price stripper LC seems suspect. Would the vehicle be more successful decontented by $10k? That would still put it in at a $70k price point, which is not a number that really puts the vehicle in that much more reach of more potential buyers, or buyers that really care about $10k. That number to me would be more in the $50k range.
Yet look at the content in an actual LC. My perspective that by 2019 (going into 2020) standards, it is already the stripper configuration. When Kia's, Dodge's, and heck Jeeps, have better standard levels of equipment and technology. It already gets a bad rap in reviews for being too homely. $10k less content, and it's going to have Corolla levels of interior and content for a $70k car. $30k less, that's agricultural and not feasible, because as we know, the content is in the core vehicle.
What the vehicle needs is an injection of excitement which is the intangible stuff. It's bland, too bland. The 2016 made the front end more exciting but the rest of the vehicle still only excites old lay low money. Enthusiasts look at it differently because we look at potential. But the base stuff… Even the LX for as much grief as is gotten here for its new front end, was absolutely the right move for Lexus and the sales numbers show it.
Yet look at the content in an actual LC. My perspective that by 2019 (going into 2020) standards, it is already the stripper configuration. When Kia's, Dodge's, and heck Jeeps, have better standard levels of equipment and technology. It already gets a bad rap in reviews for being too homely. $10k less content, and it's going to have Corolla levels of interior and content for a $70k car. $30k less, that's agricultural and not feasible, because as we know, the content is in the core vehicle.
What the vehicle needs is an injection of excitement which is the intangible stuff. It's bland, too bland. The 2016 made the front end more exciting but the rest of the vehicle still only excites old lay low money. Enthusiasts look at it differently because we look at potential. But the base stuff… Even the LX for as much grief as is gotten here for its new front end, was absolutely the right move for Lexus and the sales numbers show it.
bloc
SILVER Star
I agree on a lot of that. And I always try to keep in mind that the desires of a bunch of enthusiasts that often buy used isn’t high on the priority radar of a company like toyota. Not that they don’t care at all, they are just more concerned with what sells new vehicles. In the market of people willing & able to spend 85k on a new car the LX makes a lot of sense. The cruiser too, but to a much smaller portion of that market that wants the near-$100k quality while not advertising it. If anything I like that the 16+ LX differentiated itself from the cruiser so much. Two very different flavors of an amazing vehicle. The risk is the more plain one being cannibalized by the more popular version’s sales numbers.
Profit wise, the US-made, Tundra-based Sequoia is also a lot cheaper to make than the LC200. The only profitable niche for the Land Cruiser is that top dog spot. The 2016+ interior and feature set is actually very nice compared to all the other body on frame SUV's except for the G Wagon and perhaps the Lincoln Navigator. The Expedition, Tahoe, etc are all lacking in comparison, even though their current models are much newer.
When comparing the pricing to the other top, fully loaded models (Expedition Platinum, Yukon Denali, etc) which already hit the $75-80k mark, and then adding the upgrading off roading feature set much like a Raptor does, the Land Cruiser's pricing makes complete sense. If anything it would be a comparable bargain considering the much more robust construction, exclusivity, features (crawl control, KDSS, etc).
For the American market, the difference will be inherent coolness. The Wrangler, upcoming Bronco, and F-150 Raptor, are overflowing with that x factor. Even the updated 4Runner, especially the TRD Pro, secured a large niche of the market by appealing to those senses. Then considering the traditional competitors to the Land Cruiser, such as the Range Rover and G Wagon, the Land Cruiser is missing out on those refined, high-tech luxury features. Heck even the 2020 Subaru Outback and Kia Telluride interiors are up to the new benchmark. The electric, subframe bodied Rivian R1S at the $65k starting price has already caught the eye of countless Americans.
Adding really masculine, bold, eye-catching styling like the TRD Pro 4Runner and the Raptor, and then adding cutting edge technology and luxury, tied to a good marketing campaign, would be Toyota's best shot at making the Land Cruiser worth its price to American buyers IMO. The current 4Runner and Tacoma’s styling really marry instantly recognizable Toyota/Japanese looks with ruggedness and coolness - the Land Cruiser has every right to be a big 4Runner TRD Pro on steroids (and in a tuxedo). The design shift for the new Toyota Avalon (the other niche “halo” car) shows that Toyota has at least been considering that mentality. The new Land Rover Defender and new G Wagon both execute this formula well - and they’re not even the size of the Land Cruiser. Even the environmental standards argument doesn’t mean the 300 can’t be a boxy, brawny, mean looking SUV with incredible capability, luxury, and technology - it just means a new power train is needed. A 450+ hp twin turbo V6 seems in order realistically.
The 300 series would need to go against years of Toyota earning a reputation for "bland" cars that are a safe choice. The Land Cruiser nameplate surely has a lot of heritage to hinge on if done properly (doesn’t even require a gaudy TRD Pro name). And a base model truly has no place in the American market unless the Sequoia is discontinued.
This is all fantasizing of course, but it sure seems worthwhile from where I’m sitting. $90k for a reliable, luxury Raptor SUV seems hot and reasonable in the current US market. (I secretely hope the new one doesn't come for a while so my 200 stays "new" haha.)
When comparing the pricing to the other top, fully loaded models (Expedition Platinum, Yukon Denali, etc) which already hit the $75-80k mark, and then adding the upgrading off roading feature set much like a Raptor does, the Land Cruiser's pricing makes complete sense. If anything it would be a comparable bargain considering the much more robust construction, exclusivity, features (crawl control, KDSS, etc).
For the American market, the difference will be inherent coolness. The Wrangler, upcoming Bronco, and F-150 Raptor, are overflowing with that x factor. Even the updated 4Runner, especially the TRD Pro, secured a large niche of the market by appealing to those senses. Then considering the traditional competitors to the Land Cruiser, such as the Range Rover and G Wagon, the Land Cruiser is missing out on those refined, high-tech luxury features. Heck even the 2020 Subaru Outback and Kia Telluride interiors are up to the new benchmark. The electric, subframe bodied Rivian R1S at the $65k starting price has already caught the eye of countless Americans.
Adding really masculine, bold, eye-catching styling like the TRD Pro 4Runner and the Raptor, and then adding cutting edge technology and luxury, tied to a good marketing campaign, would be Toyota's best shot at making the Land Cruiser worth its price to American buyers IMO. The current 4Runner and Tacoma’s styling really marry instantly recognizable Toyota/Japanese looks with ruggedness and coolness - the Land Cruiser has every right to be a big 4Runner TRD Pro on steroids (and in a tuxedo). The design shift for the new Toyota Avalon (the other niche “halo” car) shows that Toyota has at least been considering that mentality. The new Land Rover Defender and new G Wagon both execute this formula well - and they’re not even the size of the Land Cruiser. Even the environmental standards argument doesn’t mean the 300 can’t be a boxy, brawny, mean looking SUV with incredible capability, luxury, and technology - it just means a new power train is needed. A 450+ hp twin turbo V6 seems in order realistically.
The 300 series would need to go against years of Toyota earning a reputation for "bland" cars that are a safe choice. The Land Cruiser nameplate surely has a lot of heritage to hinge on if done properly (doesn’t even require a gaudy TRD Pro name). And a base model truly has no place in the American market unless the Sequoia is discontinued.
This is all fantasizing of course, but it sure seems worthwhile from where I’m sitting. $90k for a reliable, luxury Raptor SUV seems hot and reasonable in the current US market. (I secretely hope the new one doesn't come for a while so my 200 stays "new" haha.)
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Interesting points. I personally hate the look of recent model 4runner, Tacoma and Lexus. They look gimiky as if they’re trying too hard. The best looking SUV’s these days are the Land Rover offerings IMO: clean and purposeful looking without unnecessary doodads. Not that I would buy a Land Rover product...Toyota quality is the real reason I own a LC. But from a looks perspective, Toyota SUV’s are ugly, other than the (somewhat bland) LC.
