What the difference between the two case transferbox of an FJ40 PTO Winch. Why the second gear-wheel in the first image? Thanks.
Case transferbox FJ40 PTO Winch (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Luis Moniz
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The PTO with 2 gears sticking out of it, you can run in either direction. So you can put the pto in reverse and run the winch out in 5th then put the pto back and run the winch in like normal. the other one you only have reverse gear to run the winch backwards which is slow, so you have to run the winch out in free spool and be careful you dont end up with a birds nest of cable.
Also be advised that the winches associated with each respective PTO box have different-handed threads on their worm shafts. I think that if you couple a single-gear PTO box with a winch for the double gear box, the forward gears of the transmission will unwind the winch, and only the reverse gear will wind the winch.
I haven't seen that problem, one of my 70 series has a single gear pto and the other has a double, ive switched these around, and both of the winches still work as normal (Im guessing it has something to do with older winches?)
Do you know what cruisers came with the double gear pto boxes? I don't think the 70 series Ive got originally had one
Cheers
IIRCC the 2 gear split case PTO's are from 40 series, the 60 and 70 series had a single gear
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
From what I can tell 11/84 was the change from dual direction to the single direction. 10/82 the shift lever moved from the back to the front of the PTO. 11/84 was the start of the 70 series. I show up until that date the 60 series had the dual direction PTO. The worm gear in the winch changed part number on that date. Going from memory the dual direction PTO you move the shifter the direction you want to go. So forward would whine in with transmission in a forward gear. On the single direction you do the opposite. Forward is neutral and back engages the gear. Believe Amir @FJ40GURU sold some of the 79-82 knobs with the pattern on it. Picture of that knob could confirm the direction. I just bought a single direction shift lever from a 70 series has the on off on the knob. My only single direction PTO is in another location torn apart. Was working on converting to a dual direction until I got a second split case PTO in a trade.
The theory about different worm shaft threads (right hand vs. left hand) on OEM winches on two way vs one way pto units is based on the gearing inside the pto units. I call it theory because I haven't disassembled the winches to compare worm shaft threading.
In any event, I will start with what I know for sure. I have a two-way (two gear) PTO unit with a winch that matches. I purchased this setup new, OEM from a Toyota dealer in Arizona in 1979, likely Flagstaff because I was living in Holbrook. The winch unit I have shows up in the parts fiche as "6903 - 7608" for what it's worth.
The operation of this winch setup, confirmed in my owner's manual for 1973 and my personal experience:
1. With the PTO lever forward, I have three speeds of winding (first, second, third gear from the tranny) and one speed of unwind (reverse from the tranny.)
2. With the PTO lever rearward, I have three speeds of UN-winding (first, second, third gear from the tranny) and one speed of WIND (reverse from the tranny.)
My two gear PTO unit works as follows:
1. With the PTO lever forward, the linkage to the PTO unit positions the internal gearing so that it drives the PTO output shaft through an idler gear. Looking from the front of the vehicle, the engine turns clockwise (CW), the transmission in forward gear turns CW, the double gear then turns counter clockwise (CCW), the idler gear turns CW, and the output gear turns CCW, which is on the output shaft driving the winch driveshaft CCW. We then WIND the winch in the three forward gears with a CCW direction on the winch drive shaft connected to the worm shaft within the winch.
2. With the PTO lever rearward, the linkage to the PTO unit drives the PTO output shaft gear directly. No idler gear. Looking from the front of the vehicle, the engine turns CW, the transmission in forward gear turns CW, the double gear then turns CCW, the double gear drives the output gear directly, therefore the output gear turns CW, which is on the output shaft driving the winch driveshaft CW. We then UNWIND the winch in the three forward gears with a CW direction on the winch drive shaft which is connected to the worm shaft.
So, here's the theory:
The one way (one gear) PTO unit does not appear to have an idler gear (see below.) With no idler gear, the one way PTO unit can only turn the winch drive shaft CW with the tranny in forward gear. IF we have three speeds of WIND in forward on the winch, the winch worm shaft must have an opposite handed thread compared to the two way PTO setup.
Anyway, that's my theory..
One way PTO unit:
Two way PTO unit:
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
The theory about different worm shaft threads (right hand vs. left hand) on OEM winches on two way vs one way pto units is based on the gearing inside the pto units. I call it theory because I haven't disassembled the winches to compare worm shaft threading.
In any event, I will start with what I know for sure. I have a two-way (two gear) PTO unit with a winch that matches. I purchased this setup new, OEM from a Toyota dealer in Arizona in 1979, likely Flagstaff because I was living in Holbrook. The winch unit I have shows up in the parts fiche as "6903 - 7608" for what it's worth.
The operation of this winch setup, confirmed in my owner's manual for 1973 and my personal experience:
1. With the PTO lever forward, I have three speeds of winding (first, second, third gear from the tranny) and one speed of unwind (reverse from the tranny.)
2. With the PTO lever rearward, I have three speeds of UN-winding (first, second, third gear from the tranny) and one speed of WIND (reverse from the tranny.)
My two gear PTO unit works as follows:
1. With the PTO lever forward, the linkage to the PTO unit positions the internal gearing so that it drives the PTO output shaft through an idler gear. Looking from the front of the vehicle, the engine turns clockwise (CW), the transmission in forward gear turns CW, the double gear then turns counter clockwise (CCW), the idler gear turns CW, and the output gear turns CCW, which is on the output shaft driving the winch driveshaft CCW. We then WIND the winch in the three forward gears with a CCW direction on the winch drive shaft connected to the worm shaft within the winch.
2. With the PTO lever rearward, the linkage to the PTO unit drives the PTO output shaft gear directly. No idler gear. Looking from the front of the vehicle, the engine turns CW, the transmission in forward gear turns CW, the double gear then turns CCW, the double gear drives the output gear directly, therefore the output gear turns CW, which is on the output shaft driving the winch driveshaft CW. We then UNWIND the winch in the three forward gears with a CW direction on the winch drive shaft which is connected to the worm shaft.
So, here's the theory:
The one way (one gear) PTO unit does not appear to have an idler gear (see below.) With no idler gear, the one way PTO unit can only turn the winch drive shaft CW with the tranny in forward gear. IF we have three speeds of WIND in forward on the winch, the winch worm shaft must have an opposite handed thread compared to the two way PTO setup.
Anyway, that's my theory..
One way PTO unit:
View attachment 1989262
Two way PTO unit:
View attachment 1989266
That is correct the dual direction uses the small idler to winch in with transmission in forward gears. There is no idler gear is the single direction. The gear moves and engages the PTO gear in the transmission on the single direction. This uses a bushing verses two ball bearings on the gear which is turning all the time on the dual direct. The small idler gear is a bushing. Both have ball bearings on the output shaft. On the dual direction it is the gear on the output shaft that when not in neutral is engaged with the driven gear from the transfer when in reverse. Engaged with the small idler gear when in forward. For this reason I see worm gear has to reverse to work the with transmission in forward. I am kind of a PTO winch junky. I have six different types of factory PTO. All three versions of the PTO that were used with the split transfer case.
In the Flagstaff at that time it would have been McCoy motors who had the Toyota dealership. They mainly sold Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Pontiac and GMC trucks. Toyota was also a side line in a small building on the lot. It was this dealer that wanted to charge me a fortune to replace the hazard flasher fuse. Told they needed to tear the dash apart to get to it. Later found it under the cowl vent and probably a five minute repair. This was in 1974 after I was able to straighten out all the PO hacks to the wiring. Hazards was the only one I couldn't figure without a FSM.
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
Never seen the label on that knob before. Doesn't show up as a separate part only a knob. Have a nice PTO shifter off a 84 HJ47RV. Did not have the label. Does make since the previous knob had the instructions printed on the top. Then the later single direction had the label.
Currently having this issue, 1977 HJ45, originally dual direction pto / winch.
Now changing over to 5 speed with splitcase single direction pto (Hj61) , bloody winch unwinds in 1st to 5th gears. So only wind in reverse gear.
Any easy way to fix this problem?
Now changing over to 5 speed with splitcase single direction pto (Hj61) , bloody winch unwinds in 1st to 5th gears. So only wind in reverse gear.
Any easy way to fix this problem?
Yup and the winch unwinds when i engage it in 1st to 5th gears.
Wind in reverse.
Changing over the pto gears from old tcase to splitcase is probably not possible i guess?
Wind in reverse.
Changing over the pto gears from old tcase to splitcase is probably not possible i guess?
I have not done this myself.
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
I was actually working on doing just that. Few things are different. The shift that moves the fork is different. The brass bushing on the idler shaft need to be cut down. May have been a third part. I have the 10/82+ 40 series PTO with the shift lever on the front. Planned using that as a pattern to modify the shaft the fork mounts on. Has most the gears installed when I had a chance to trade a one piece transfer case PTO for a 8/80-9/82 PTO from a 40 series. The 10/82+ is for my 70 FJ40. The other is for my FJ45. I understand with a H55F the PTO shift lever does not have room to shift on the back side which was the reason. It switched 10/82. On your 77 HJ45 may be possible to use the longer shaft from the one piece case into the split case. If I can located everything I need to modify the tub for a 22 1/2 gallon tank from a 1/79+ 40 series and install a five speed may have to relocate the torque to make the fuel tank fit. If that is the case may have to finish the signal direction PTO into a two direction. Thinking a 77 with the stock fiel tank clearance is not a issue.
Another solution would be to switch the worm gear on the input shaft from a 11/84+ winch. That would reverse.the rotation.
Someone else on Mud mentioned unwinding all the rope and winding it on the reverse direction to fix the earlier two direction winch to work with the later signal direction PTO.
At least for an 81 FJ40 or BJ42, something to keep in mind for the the forward and reverse output PTO gearbox:
the torque tube will need to be modified for the forward/reverse output version.
The forward only version is a tight fit with about one centimeter of clearance.
the torque tube will need to be modified for the forward/reverse output version.
The forward only version is a tight fit with about one centimeter of clearance.
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
Because the shift lever is in the front these would both be 10/82+ PTOs. Was this installed with a H51/H42 or H55F? I know my 10/82+ 40 series PTO was pulled from 84 HJ47RV from Australia. It appears to be forward driveshaft only. The 8/80-9/82 PTO has the rear output may either complete single direction to dual direction or just switch output shafts if clearance turns out to be a issue in my early FJ45. Was suppose to be from a 40 series. The driveshaft only had a single pillow block bearing. Believe the 60 series used two. If that is the case should be clearance on the 1/79 4X series with a four speed?
Good point... forgot to mention I have this sitting behind an H55F. So, the forward/reverse gearbox might work on the 4-speed but the rear drive shaft would still have issues with getting mated to whatever the rear is powering.
Also, I bought this off rickd 15 years ago at least... maybe more. He’d rebuilt it and converted it to a forward reverse setup. My memory isn’t the greatest. He might have used parts from an earlier gearbox to accomplish this.
When I test fit this and saw the clearance issue, I removed the shaft from my forward only PTO gearbox and swapped it in place. I took measurements and it’s feasible to machine the output shaft to be identical to a forward only shaft. I didn’t need to go that route since I had the spare gearbox.
Also, I bought this off rickd 15 years ago at least... maybe more. He’d rebuilt it and converted it to a forward reverse setup. My memory isn’t the greatest. He might have used parts from an earlier gearbox to accomplish this.
When I test fit this and saw the clearance issue, I removed the shaft from my forward only PTO gearbox and swapped it in place. I took measurements and it’s feasible to machine the output shaft to be identical to a forward only shaft. I didn’t need to go that route since I had the spare gearbox.
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