Double Cardan Drive Shaft Solutions (3 Viewers)

[nukegoat]

It’s just experience. anecdote.

Fixed it for you

I have spent over $10K on a project getting to happy driveline angles with proper geometry. 80’s are exceptional in this regard, because it’s the single biggest impediment to bigger lifts.

Really? I would say proper suspension geometry is. Are you talking like 18" brodozer lifts?

The Spicer joints have shown almost no tolerance for being out of phase or even running nicely once you get past a pretty low degree of operating angle. The simple fact that u-joints operating at an angle travel in an elliptical path suggests that tolerances are going to matter, pseudosciency or not.

The Spicer joint's supposed "lack of tolerance for being out of phase" could only come from much tighter operating tolerances. Put another way, a loose and sloppy u joint will pack with grease and tolerate misalignment by hydraulically cushioning the oscillations. I doubt you're admitting that Toyota u-joints are better because they're sloppier, so this is just a weird contradiction.

That’s also why size isn’t everything - if it was, none of us would be running an 8” front R&P. Toyota carrier tolerances are vastly superior to Dana, and it’s flex that blows stuff more than straight shearing. I’d rather have the clearance that comes from better engineering than having to compensate with Dana 60’s.

I'm not running a front 8" R&P. But nor am I running a stock Dana carrier either. At any rate, this appears to be Toyota fanboyism. Hold an open Dana super 60 carrier in your hands and tell me it's inferior to an open 2-pinion toyota carrier. Now I'm not even sure what you're arguing.

Anyway, whatever. It doesn't really matter. Toyota DC joints are cool. I think they're well built (except a nightmare to service). I run one in the front. But don't delude yourself into thinking that somehow due to anecdotes on Pirate4x4 that the Toyota joints are going to be beefier than a 1410.

 

[Nay]

@Nay- you lucked out finding a Toyota DC that has such low miles. Most out there have high miles and the joint itself isn’t all that wears.

As I’m sure you know, the Toyota drive shafts are not designed to be torn apart like you plan. They are schwaged together. Yes, I know people have done it.

Well, the parts yard didn’t have it after an inventory check. So I bought another one for $65 out of an ‘02 4Runner and didn’t pay attention that it’s laser welded or whatever and not usable to be torn apart as you said.

So I decided to stop being so f’ing creative and had a local shop swap in the Spicer 1310 double cardan with zerks on the bearing cap on my OEM driveshaft. I now have the Toyota stuff on the axle end and Spicer at the t-case. It’s not like I’m going to blow up a double cardan joint since I’m a wuss.

Can’t say I love how bowed my new coils are back there now, can say I love a smooth rear driveshaft for the first time in forever.

And since I have a 3rd gen 4Runner in the stable that sees good trail time, I just have a spare driveshaft for it now for $65.

@nukegoat no fanboyism here. I just like to throw this stuff out there and see who bites. Hell, I just put Johnny Joints on my rig. Stuff is gonna implode now that it has Jeep parts.

 

[baldilocks]

Well, the parts yard didn’t have it after an inventory check. So I bought another one for $65 out of an ‘02 4Runner and didn’t pay attention that it’s laser welded or whatever and not usable to be torn apart as you said.

So I decided to stop being so f’ing creative and had a local shop swap in the Spicer 1310 double cardan with zerks on the bearing cap on my OEM driveshaft. I now have the Toyota stuff on the axle end and Spicer at the t-case. It’s not like I’m going to blow up a double cardan joint since I’m a wuss.

Can’t say I love how bowed my new coils are back there now, can say I love a smooth rear driveshaft for the first time in forever.

And since I have a 3rd gen 4Runner in the stable that sees good trail time, I just have a spare driveshaft for it now for $65.

@nukegoat no fanboyism here. I just like to throw this stuff out there and see who bites. Hell, I just put Johnny Joints on my rig. Stuff is gonna implode now that it has Jeep parts.

I prefer the Soicer Life Series joints. 1310 possess’s enough ultimate strength for what I, and most 80 owners do. It propbabky won’t last 250k likes like the over sized stock joints but that’s ok with me as it will take me a decade to drive my 80 50k anyway.

Remember, the driveline doesn’t see the torque loading that the axle does.

My springs are bowed as well but that bears no noicabke affect on drivability or wheelabilty. I think I just made up a word.

 

[-Spike-]

I think I just made up a word.

I think you made up a couple.

 

[baldilocks]

I think you made up a couple.

Sometimes my thumbs trip over each other too.

 

[Nay]

I prefer the Soicer Life Series joints. 1310 possess’s enough ultimate strength for what I, and most 80 owners do. It propbabky won’t last 250k likes like the over sized stock joints but that’s ok with me as it will take me a decade to drive my 80 50k anyway.

Remember, the driveline doesn’t see the torque loading that the axle does.

My springs are bowed as well but that bears no noicabke affect on drivability or wheelabilty. I think I just made up a word.

I don’t notice anything from the coil bow, although it does bug me aesthetically.

My 80 is retired from primary family duty, so miles are way down, probably also in the 5K-7K per year range.

I also carry a spare shaft since some of my trips are pretty remote and far away, and I am never going to shake a ‘be prepared’ mentality.

Anyway, my contribution here is probably not overly helpful except to note the problem with an ‘01-2 4Runner driveshaft.

 

[2RUNNERTOM]

Does anyone have a link for new joints for a taco driveshaft? Im not really sure what I need to replace before brining it to a shop to be shortened and if anyone has links or part numbers that would be great!

 

[BayArea80]

I picked up a DC driveshaft from Tom Woods recently, utilizing 1310 style u-joints. After installing, I still get a significant amount of noise from the driveshaft. Frankly, I do not think that it improved anything. It has been pre-greased before shipping and the joints feel tight. Two things that I am questioning:

1. Since this is a new driveshaft, I do not have a match mark that I can line it up to like the FSM says. Should I try rotating the shaft 90* on the front pinion and see if that helps? According to the last post in this thread, it can make a difference: Does driveshaft yoke-to-flange orientation matter?
2. The angle of the front pinion and the driveshaft differs by around 4.5 degrees, meaning the pinion is closer to level with the ground and the driveshaft carries 4.5 degrees of upward slope. Is that enough to cause all this noise?

 

[jcardona1]

I picked up a DC driveshaft from Tom Woods recently, utilizing 1310 style u-joints. After installing, I still get a significant amount of noise from the driveshaft. Frankly, I do not think that it improved anything. It has been pre-greased before shipping and the joints feel tight. Two things that I am questioning:

1. Since this is a new driveshaft, I do not have a match mark that I can line it up to like the FSM says. Should I try rotating the shaft 90* on the front pinion and see if that helps? According to the last post in this thread, it can make a difference: Does driveshaft yoke-to-flange orientation matter?
2. The angle of the front pinion and the driveshaft differs by around 4.5 degrees, meaning the pinion is closer to level with the ground and the driveshaft carries 4.5 degrees of upward slope. Is that enough to cause all this noise?

My guess would be pinion angle. Pinion angle is important to avoid vibrations. For a DC shaft, pinion should be pointed at the tcase so operating angle is 0º +/- a degree. For what it's worth, I recently installed a Tatton DC shaft in the rear with 1310 joints but spent lots of time setting the pinion angle right by adjusting upper and lower links. I have zero vibrations/noise from the driveshaft.

This article is important to read regarding driveshaft/pinion angles: Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive

 

[BayArea80]

My guess would be pinion angle. Pinion angle is important to avoid vibrations. For a DC shaft, pinion should be pointed at the tcase so operating angle is 0º +/- a degree. For what it's worth, I recently installed a Tatton DC shaft in the rear with 1310 joints but spent lots of time setting the pinion angle right by adjusting upper and lower links. I have zero vibrations/noise from the driveshaft.

This article is important to read regarding driveshaft/pinion angles: Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive

I think you are right. Even assuming 1-2* rotation of the axle under acceleration/cruise, that would still leave me about 2-2.5* off. Without the ability to adjust the front pinion angle since I am on the stock radius arms, it seems my only option would be to low the truck back down a bit. Fortunately, I have a 1" spacer installed so if I absolutely have to remove it, I can. Guess it's time to go bust out the tape measure and brush up on my trigonometry.

 

[BayArea80]

I just spoke Tom of Tom Woods Driveshafts and he mentioned that he would not expect any noise at a 4-5* operating angle. I'll go drive it around more the next couple weeks and if it doesn't get better they will take it back and run it through QC again to see if they can figure out the issue. Glad at least that they stand behind their product, even if it's a PITA for me...

 

[Stumpalama]

I think you are right. Even assuming 1-2* rotation of the axle under acceleration/cruise, that would still leave me about 2-2.5* off. Without the ability to adjust the front pinion angle since I am on the stock radius arms, it seems my only option would be to low the truck back down a bit. Fortunately, I have a 1" spacer installed so if I absolutely have to remove it, I can. Guess it's time to go bust out the tape measure and brush up on my trigonometry.

You can still adjust the angle with stock radius arms, using the Landtank style plates or offset bushings.
Pictures would help.
And how are you so confident it is the driveshaft and not the differential or T-case output? Seems you are making a big assumption without sufficient data.

 

[BayArea80]

You can still adjust the angle with stock radius arms, using the Landtank style plates or offset bushings.
Pictures would help.
And how are you so confident it is the driveshaft and not the differential or T-case output? Seems you are making a big assumption without sufficient data.

Fair points. I do not think it is the front diff because it was not making any noise before the lift and there was only minimal groaning after the lift was done, which I attributed to the DS and u-joint angles. It could be the transfer case, although I hope to hell it is not as I just replaced it. I'm not sure of how to diagnose the t-case output or diff, mind sharing some pointers?

I've already installed 5* caster plates.

 

[Stumpalama]

The DS from TW should have come balanced and in phase. Have you driven it without the front driveshaft installed? That is some serious angle at 5*. What size lift are you running? Again, some pictures of the diff and pinion flange would be helpful so we can see what you are dealing with.

 

[bryson]

I picked up a DC driveshaft from Tom Woods recently, utilizing 1310 style u-joints. After installing, I still get a significant amount of noise from the driveshaft. Frankly, I do not think that it improved anything. It has been pre-greased before shipping and the joints feel tight. Two things that I am questioning:

1. Since this is a new driveshaft, I do not have a match mark that I can line it up to like the FSM says. Should I try rotating the shaft 90* on the front pinion and see if that helps? According to the last post in this thread, it can make a difference: Does driveshaft yoke-to-flange orientation matter?
2. The angle of the front pinion and the driveshaft differs by around 4.5 degrees, meaning the pinion is closer to level with the ground and the driveshaft carries 4.5 degrees of upward slope. Is that enough to cause all this noise?

Your pinion/driveshaft angle difference of 4.5* is a big deal. As mentioned, your pinion and driveshaft need to be in line for a DC shaft to run smooth. If your angles aren't right for a DC, you can't blame the driveshaft. Also, unlike single-joint shafts, u-joint phase doesn't matter on a properly set up DC driveshaft.

In my experience, you'll have a hard time getting your pinion low enough to run a DC without having tie-rod/radius arm clearance issues.

 

[goranvolvo]

Your pinion/driveshaft angle difference of 4.5* is a big deal. As mentioned, your pinion and driveshaft need to be in line for a DC shaft to run smooth. If your angles aren't right for a DC, you can't blame the driveshaft. Also, unlike single-joint shafts, u-joint phase doesn't matter on a properly set up DC driveshaft.

In my experience, you'll have a hard time getting your pinion low enough to run a DC without having tie-rod/radius arm clearance issues.

do you know what is the tolerance +.- in alignment between pinion flange and drive shaft angle

 

[bryson]

do you know what is the tolerance +.- in alignment between pinion flange and drive shaft angle

There is no exact "this will work, that won't work" tolerance, but I'd say that if you can get it less than 2* difference you'd probably be OK.

 

[Dindu Nuffin]

Potentially dumb question here, but has anyone looked into using CV joints in their drive shafts? I don't mean double cardans, but rzeppa constant velocity joints like a ton of Jeeps use. TeraFlex makes a joint that can operate at something like 30°, if I'm remembering correctly, and with one on each end of the drive shaft, joint angles wouldn't ever be an issue.

 

[BayArea80]

Your pinion/driveshaft angle difference of 4.5* is a big deal. As mentioned, your pinion and driveshaft need to be in line for a DC shaft to run smooth. If your angles aren't right for a DC, you can't blame the driveshaft. Also, unlike single-joint shafts, u-joint phase doesn't matter on a properly set up DC driveshaft.

In my experience, you'll have a hard time getting your pinion low enough to run a DC without having tie-rod/radius arm clearance issues.

See below for the photos. I verified the angles with my iphones level app as well. Speaking to Tom Woods he mentioned that difference is typically not enough to be problematic. That being said, the noise disappeared the other day, and had only come back sporadically. Clearly I have more diagnosing to do but I'm starting to suspect the noise is coming from elsewhere.

 

[jcardona1]

See below for the photos. I verified the angles with my iphones level app as well. Speaking to Tom Woods he mentioned that difference is typically not enough to be problematic. That being said, the noise disappeared the other day, and had only come back sporadically. Clearly I have more diagnosing to do but I'm starting to suspect the noise is coming from elsewhere.

Measure the pinion angle at the flange like in the pic below to give a more accurate reading (just to be sure).