the SharkNet (a product build thread) (1 Viewer)

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Thx., @cruzerDave. I'm in! Just made it official on the group buy post. Can't wait to rip out that sore-thumb of a billet grill.
 
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Late night but worth it - I finally got the new cutfiles done and the RFP off to my (hopeful) vendor. There were a lot of changes to the sheet metal (new profile in pink) so basically starting from scratch:

Screen Shot 2018-02-01 at 7.08.51 PM.png


Note - the final product's border is 3/8" down from 1/2" and all the lines above were just the work-in-progress snapshot

The moment I have a proto in hand at the price I'm expecting I close the group buy, I'll let you know what the vendor says for an eta.
 
I promised to keep everyone updated with how this product development goes, and this is not one of those posts I wanted to make, but hey, full transparency...

I am really loaded with so many things going on and this being a side gig, so I was really hoping that this vendor I found would be my answer for how to offer the grill as a long term product with minimal effort on my end, even if it meant not making too much on each sale. They would take care of everything from ordering materials to packaging, and all I would have to do is give them shipping labels. Unfortunately, all of that service apparently costs more than I ever suspected:

Screen Shot 2018-02-17 at 5.14.17 PM.png


Those of you following along will recall I was going to sell the group buy at $99. Yeah, the math is broke on this now.

Now this was my plan A, not my only plan. When you set out to do this sort of thing hopefully you always are thinking 'what is my backup plan' because folks, you're going to need it more times than you expect. Hell, I would say have 2 backup plans for every plan, what is the saying, 2 is 1 and 1 is none? So 3 is enough. Probably.

My backup plan was me running around from vendor to vendor to buddy to vendor, and at the end of the day if my time is free I can still clear a couple bucks on the group buy. But that is not necessarily the best use of my time, when I have 200 series owners wanting drawers, 60 series yipping, Land Rovers & Subies saying what about us, Remora deserving of some love, and 11 other R&D projects I desperately want for my rig on hold for time.

Hmph.

Where does that leave things? Well the group buy is going forward (I am a man of my word) but the price is going up and the next iterations will need to fight for my time with other projects. If someone with another year/model send me their grill it will encourage me to build theirs next, but my bandwidth to hunt them down is unlikely near term.
 
Thanks for being as upfront as possible Dave. Its refreshing to have an actual idea of whats going on with a project in this day and age. Is there a projected timeline and total cost for the group buy?
 
I promised to keep everyone updated with how this product development goes, and this is not one of those posts I wanted to make, but hey, full transparency...

I am really loaded with so many things going on and this being a side gig, so I was really hoping that this vendor I found would be my answer for how to offer the grill as a long term product with minimal effort on my end, even if it meant not making too much on each sale. They would take care of everything from ordering materials to packaging, and all I would have to do is give them shipping labels. Unfortunately, all of that service apparently costs more than I ever suspected:

View attachment 1635691

Those of you following along will recall I was going to sell the group buy at $99. Yeah, the math is broke on this now.

Now this was my plan A, not my only plan. When you set out to do this sort of thing hopefully you always are thinking 'what is my backup plan' because folks, you're going to need it more times than you expect. Hell, I would say have 2 backup plans for every plan, what is the saying, 2 is 1 and 1 is none? So 3 is enough. Probably.

My backup plan was me running around from vendor to vendor to buddy to vendor, and at the end of the day if my time is free I can still clear a couple bucks on the group buy. But that is not necessarily the best use of my time, when I have 200 series owners wanting drawers, 60 series yipping, Land Rovers & Subies saying what about us, Remora deserving of some love, and 11 other R&D projects I desperately want for my rig on hold for time.

Hmph.

Where does that leave things? Well the group buy is going forward (I am a man of my word) but the price is going up and the next iterations will need to fight for my time with other projects. If someone with another year/model send me their grill it will encourage me to build theirs next, but my bandwidth to hunt them down is unlikely near term.
Good job Dave! Keep charging.
 
The latest challenge are finding the screws to hold it in. Why is that a challenge? Because I want them to be
a) rust-resistant
b) black for aesthetics
c) self-tapping for convenience

I've googled my way into automotive supplier sites that provide screws that match OEM requirements from Toyota, Ford, GM, etc, but it's not that simple to know where those screws were originally intended to be installed, inside vs outside big difference) and I know from experience with the drawers some black materials like black oxide are crap.

So even after I narrow down to a short list like this:
Screen Shot 2018-02-24 at 10.41.18 AM.png

you cant know what might be a good black zinc or what might be a cheap black phosphate (some are fine, some not).

Does anyone have experience testing materials for corrosion? I'm not paying $$$ to have these pro tested, so am thinking about buying some of each and doing DIY salt-testing by spraying with 5% NaOH, putting in low toaster oven (chemical reactions double in rate every 10 degrees), and repeating, with periods of sitting out. Might take days, unsure if it will yield results or just annoy my wife cluttering up the kitchen... Will also attach some under the truck somewhere for a long term test, but we don't have salt on the roads here so questionable applicability.

For the first batch I'll likely include zinc-plated options as well and allow the customer to decide which suits their environment, but long term need a single solution.

Any suggestions?
 
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I have been using 316 stainless with a black oxide button heads from McMaster Carr. They are on many of my grilles now so I guess they are being put to the test. I wasn’t sure if the black oxide would last or not, but the stainless grade is good. So far mine look good but no salt here. I was thinking about having the heads powder coated but it would probably be too thick and the Allen wrench then wouldn’t fit. I might try it sometime if I’m going for a specific look.
 
I have been using 316 stainless with a black oxide button heads from McMaster Carr. They are on many of my grilles now so I guess they are being put to the test. I wasn’t sure if the black oxide would last or not, but the stainless grade is good. So far mine look good but no salt here. I was thinking about having the heads powder coated but it would probably be too thick and the Allen wrench then wouldn’t fit. I might try it sometime if I’m going for a specific look.
Thanks Kelly - headsup though that I started KISS Drawers with black oxide screws because I loved the look. About 6 months later a customer sends me a pic of his drawers and the bolts are rusting, inside his truck. Yes it was a salty NE location, but I went and looked at some of mine (which had been in service an additional 4 months) and was seeing slight signs of rust as well. THAT cost me a pretty penny as I bought and mailed out to all customers SS replacements - ouch. I now use zinc-plated inside as Ben (Dissent) advised me against stainless (can still get rusting) and he used zinc-plated. I trusted his advice figuring if it was good for bumpers it would do for drawers, and have since read several other sources saying the same thing. If I didn't sweat the potential visibility of a shiny bolt head breaking the aesthetic of a kick-a$$ all-black (inside) grill, I wouldn't hesitate and go with the plated. (edited my above post where I mistakenly wrote SS!)

I haven't seen your bolts to understand how they are putting a black oxide on stainless (does not match my understanding of the process), but felt you and others might benefit from hearing of my bad experience with black oxide...
 
Thanks Kelly - headsup though that I started KISS Drawers with black oxide screws because I loved the look. About 6 months later a customer sends me a pic of his drawers and the bolts are rusting, inside his truck. Yes it was a salty NE location, but I went and looked at some of mine (which had been in service an additional 4 months) and was seeing slight signs of rust as well. THAT cost me a pretty penny as I bought and mailed out to all customers SS replacements - ouch. I now use zinc-plated inside as Ben (Dissent) advised me against stainless (can still get rusting) and he used zinc-plated. I trusted his advice figuring if it was good for bumpers it would do for drawers, and have since read several other sources saying the same thing. If I didn't sweat the potential visibility of a shiny bolt head breaking the aesthetic of a kick-a$$ all-black (inside) grill, I wouldn't hesitate and go with the plated. (edited my above post where I mistakenly wrote SS!)

I haven't seen your bolts to understand how they are putting a black oxide on stainless (does not match my understanding of the process), but felt you and others might benefit from hearing of my bad experience with black oxide...
I use a combination of stainless and zinc, black zinc is nice but hard to come by for some reason. stainless is fine for non structural situations where extreme corrosion resistance is needed but for most situations black, gold or silver zinc will work just fine. The biggest thing to watch out for on stainless to stainless hardware is galling, antiseize must be used to prevent this on stainless.
My main reason for not using stainless on the main bolts on the rear bumpers is cost and strength, all small hardware I use 18-8 grade stainless which has seemed to work well. I have a few customers that have used the black oxide stainless but I have not personally had any experience with them.
 
I continue to wait, after a week, to even HEAR if my final proto sheet metal piece is done or imminent. I swear, anyone looking to start building products, FIGURE OUT YOUR SUPPLY CHAIN and have redundancies in there. It costs more to set up 2 suppliers than 1 yes, but good grief this is painful too. My only other option at the moment is to go from laser to plasma (not desirable for finish quality), go out of town (not desirable for shipping cost), or wait. Sigh. Well, 1 more guy have a source for me I am following, but since this is a build and lesson thread, however much grief you think you're going to get from sourcing: double it. Then double it if you live in a smaller town and have fewer options.
 
I use a combination of stainless and zinc, black zinc is nice but hard to come by for some reason. stainless is fine for non structural situations where extreme corrosion resistance is needed but for most situations black, gold or silver zinc will work just fine. The biggest thing to watch out for on stainless to stainless hardware is galling, antiseize must be used to prevent this on stainless.
My main reason for not using stainless on the main bolts on the rear bumpers is cost and strength, all small hardware I use 18-8 grade stainless which has seemed to work well. I have a few customers that have used the black oxide stainless but I have not personally had any experience with them.
Thanks @benc - I can attest to the power of zinc-plating, on my bumper from you I replaced the 8 bolts that hold down the small bull bar with socket button heads because I liked the more flush look. They were stainless from Ace but guys there didn't know what grade (no way 316 though, wrong color) and the only bolts with any rust on or near them after a year are those - all the zinc-plated you sent me look great, thank you ;)
 
I continue to wait, after a week, to even HEAR if my final proto sheet metal piece is done or imminent. I swear, anyone looking to start building products, FIGURE OUT YOUR SUPPLY CHAIN and have redundancies in there. It costs more to set up 2 suppliers than 1 yes, but good grief this is painful too. My only other option at the moment is to go from laser to plasma (not desirable for finish quality), go out of town (not desirable for shipping cost), or wait. Sigh. Well, 1 more guy have a source for me I am following, but since this is a build and lesson thread, however much grief you think you're going to get from sourcing: double it. Then double it if you live in a smaller town and have fewer options.

I think the Bend OR trade off is a good one.

I have 5 laser cutters, and 2 water jet cutters near me that I powder coat for. Unfortunately I am a little bit of a ways away from you.

I'm not worried. In our little community of Cruiser people I wont fault a guy for working so hard but getting held up by suppliers.

I'm excited about the grill, but it will get there when it gets there.

Stress is a mess, throw it away!
 
Thanks @benc - I can attest to the power of zinc-plating, on my bumper from you I replaced the 8 bolts that hold down the small bull bar with socket button heads because I liked the more flush look. They were stainless from Ace but guys there didn't know what grade (no way 316 though, wrong color) and the only bolts with any rust on or near them after a year are those - all the zinc-plated you sent me look great, thank you ;)
All the small bolts I supply with the fronts are 18-8 grade stainless, the only zinc coated bolts for the fronts are the frame bolts. Sounds like they likely didn't give you stainless from ace.
That being said, good hardware is hard to come by! I have had pretty good luck with my local fastenal. There normal prices are outrageous but if you start up a business account you can typically get a pretty good price. I'm now paying about a 1/4 of their sticker price, they also have always price matched for me as well.
 
I dropped the new sheet metal off at my welder and he'll be putting it together on Tuesday or Wednesday. Still waiting on an ETA for the mesh and the black bolts. Still moving forward, albeit slowly!
 
It's a bit late coming but a build thread needs to document the whole process so here we go.

Sheet metal rev 2 was much, much better, having pulled forward in the housing about 3/4". It needed some final tweaks though, as you can see (black was old, silver is new):

Screen Shot 2018-03-16 at 9.20.43 PM.png


I made those updates to the design, printed out to scale, cut and overlaid on the grill, made one or two tiny, tiny, final tweaks, and sent the file off to be cut at qty 15. (the first batch size).

To those waiting for me to reopen sales on the website, thank you for your patience! I want to have the manufacturing proven out before building even MORE of a backlog, and it shouldn't be much longer!

Mesh is still the critical path item - suppliers are few and far between (at least as far as I can find) and the quality of the product I have now is so good I have felt it not worth the gamble finding another one, which is why we are still waiting to get to manufacturing. We ARE in their queue, but no ship date yet (which happens once it enters production). I'm reaching out for updates and will let you know once I hear anything. Once it SHIPS, it gets delivered straight to my plasma guy. He will need couple days, depends on workload. Then my welder picks it up and the sheet metal bits (they all work in the same industrial park) and welds everything together - another 2-5 days depending on his schedule, right now plenty of time but he does on-site work and could get pulled for a big job at any time so I never know. Then he drops it all off at powdercoat which should only be 2-3 days as they usually turn pretty quick. I then pick up and package, which will be pretty quick at 1-2 days (already have the shipping cardboard, separate post later on packaging). So add all that up and you can see it's still a couple weeks at least. My apologies this first run is taking so long but they ARE coming!
 
When you hear myself or another vendor talk about frustrations with suppliers, trust me they are only sharing a tenth of their frustrations with you or online. The amount of headaches and PITA issues can not be understated. It is the single worst part of this "job". For anyone considering making something for our community I don't want to discourage you, but I DO want you to be mentally prepared for a never-ending battle. Of course, I'm in a particularly lousy mood today because my CNC'er forgot to switch bits while cutting KISS plywood and now the tiny nail holes for the trim pieces are actually huge holes that the nails will fall right through, and I need to get him to recut those bits, and my customers will be stuck waiting another week. Grrrr.

For SharkNet (the point of this thread) this means the mesh is... *somewhere*. Last time I shipped freight from LA it was about 4 days, and that is what was promised this time as well. Pull up tracking, however, and you can see that it kinda looks as though it came to Bend, then left, and then the warehouse crew has been playing hot potato with the pallet:

Screen Shot 2018-04-08 at 3.09.56 PM.png


DON'T THOSE TRUCKERS KNOW PEOPLE ARE WAITING ON THEIR AWESOME CUSTOM GRILLS?!?!?!!!!

I have no idea what's happening with that mesh but my (3) suppliers who are next in the process are all on standby (as best they can be, it's not like they don't have other customers and projects to do), but any of them could also have a problem, get sick, make mistakes, or run off to Hawaii to catch an epic storm surge or something.

The point is (for those taking notes in anticipation of starting up their own side business) control as much of the supply chain yourself as you can, and if you are still designing your product design it around materials and vendors that are a) close, b) you can trust, and c) don't surf.
 
When you hear myself or another vendor talk about frustrations with suppliers, trust me they are only sharing a tenth of their frustrations with you or online. The amount of headaches and PITA issues can not be understated. It is the single worst part of this "job". For anyone considering making something for our community I don't want to discourage you, but I DO want you to be mentally prepared for a never-ending battle. Of course, I'm in a particularly lousy mood today because my CNC'er forgot to switch bits while cutting KISS plywood and now the tiny nail holes for the trim pieces are actually huge holes that the nails will fall right through, and I need to get him to recut those bits, and my customers will be stuck waiting another week. Grrrr.

For SharkNet (the point of this thread) this means the mesh is... *somewhere*. Last time I shipped freight from LA it was about 4 days, and that is what was promised this time as well. Pull up tracking, however, and you can see that it kinda looks as though it came to Bend, then left, and then the warehouse crew has been playing hot potato with the pallet:

View attachment 1672959

DON'T THOSE TRUCKERS KNOW PEOPLE ARE WAITING ON THEIR AWESOME CUSTOM GRILLS?!?!?!!!!

I have no idea what's happening with that mesh but my (3) suppliers who are next in the process are all on standby (as best they can be, it's not like they don't have other customers and projects to do), but any of them could also have a problem, get sick, make mistakes, or run off to Hawaii to catch an epic storm surge or something.

The point is (for those taking notes in anticipation of starting up their own side business) control as much of the supply chain yourself as you can, and if you are still designing your product design it around materials and vendors that are a) close, b) you can trust, and c) don't surf.

Totally with you on all points (except maybe the surf part). I have been in powder coating for 25 years and with limited supply dependence, it is tough enough. Now with trying to manufacture items with lots of steps, it really is a fight to kick off stress. If it weren't for the awesome MUD community, I would have quit already!

Excited for my grille, but not in the least bit concerned about timeframe. Carry on and NO WORRIES!

Cheers
 
Totally with you on all points (except maybe the surf part). I have been in powder coating for 25 years and with limited supply dependence, it is tough enough. Now with trying to manufacture items with lots of steps, it really is a fight to kick off stress. If it weren't for the awesome MUD community, I would have quit already!

Excited for my grille, but not in the least bit concerned about timeframe. Carry on and NO WORRIES!

Cheers
LOL, gotta say thanks for the quotes, "stress is a mess, throw it away" was great, but "go on a living spree" is epic. I think I will make that my saying of the month in June or July and just shut everything down and go do just that ;)
 

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