Blown motor help Atlanta (1 Viewer)

[skhochay]

Dealer would just swap in a new OEM long block and scarp the engine. They'd also swap radiator and many other rubber and plastic parts out for new. Ton of labor involved. So pricy rout to take.

I would agree that timing belt rarely if ever takes out a 2UZ-fe maybe not even the VVT-i. But coolant system is the achilles heal of or 100 series. Tees being the biggest concern but proper maintenance of coolant system and inspecting level frequently is very very import. It is more import than oil changes IMHO.


It was report to me; "as soon as something was wrong (Dash lights and running very bad) it was shut down and towed".

Indication are it was run hot for some time, possibly hundreds or thousand of miles. I say this because of color of some part and radiator neck cracked. It's possible coolant was low for a year ~20K miles, that was last flush. I've seen my share of low coolant systems, with gauge reading low falsely. Clue something is wrong is when cabin heat is turn on and it blows warm or cool, as it should always blow very hot when turned to hot. But I can imagine cabin heat is not used much in the South, and goes unnoticed..

Or could be Tee just started leaking, and once level low enough systems cascaded.

Stay tuned I'll start a thread on The Unicorn soon.

First from what I've learned, cost to have a Toyota Dealer do this job is in the $12 to $14K range. JDM for the 2UZ-fe VVTi Land Cruiser are not available from any sources I've found. If someone has a source I'd be interested in hearing about it?

IMHO this was not neglected by PO. He's not a mechanic or DIYer, he relied on Toyota Dealer to maintain. The Toyota History on this one was good, better than most I look at. I'd would not have been concerned with a 10 year old with 127K having a heater Tee failure either.

Other than the blown engine this Unicorn is very clean and was well taken care of. I suppose because it is a Unicorn, PO's respected that. It's not only a Unicorn but and 2007 Unicorn. It is one of the rarest 100 series in the lower 48 of the USA. It so cool it just ended up in my garage.

Funny thing is, I didn't realise it was a Unicorn, and The Unicorn I'd been pining for until after I made the deal, and had here a month. I was just in for the Challenge present by blown engine.

By looking at the pictures on a T-connector hose . I can tell ya 100% that car was overheating not just once but many and many times I do not think T are the root problem - I do not know the maintenance history , but my gut is telling me that this car had some "Easter egg" - a defect in the head gasket or a block. cuz it looks like exhaust gas start melting T's plastic. Anyway it is too good to dispose this car . I am sure you can find a donor engine.

 

[2001LC]

The melting takes place very fast, as exhaust gasses are very hot from moment it's fired-up. I can smell rubber burning just a few seconds after firing-up. So what you see could have happen very fast once exhuast hit the tee. Some of which was when the Toyota Dealer ran to drive in and out of the shop, which I've first hand testimony they did. I also fired it up and drove short distances, which is getting hard with each start.

The 10 year old engine had a 127K miles on it. If it did have a "Easter egg" it would have shown long before this IMHO. With the head gasket I've seen and heard about leaking it's visible from side of engine, I've not seen that hear either. I'm going to be looking at that much closer when I get the engine out.

Here is picture of different heater tees at 58K miles and 11 year on a super maintain 2UZ-fe VVT-i. They looked just fine setting in the hoses. But it was clear when removed they were passed due replacing.

 

[abuck99]

The melting takes place very fast, as exhaust gasses are very hot from moment it's fired up. I can smell rubber burning just a few seconds after firing. So what you see could have happen very fast once exhuast hit the tee. Some of which was when the Toyota Dealer ran to drive in and out of the shop, which I've first hand testimony they did. I also fired it up and drove short distances, which is getting hard with each start.

The 10 year old engine had a 127K miles on it. If it did have a "Easter egg" it would have shown long before this IMHO.

Here is picture of different heater tees at 58K miles and 11 year on a super maintain 2UZ-fe VVT-i. They looked just fine setting in the hoses. But it was clear when removed they were passed due replacing.
View attachment 1590713

Suggested changing T's @ every 5yrs or 50k miles interval then? $20 for plastic tees and a quart of coolant seems like cheap insurance.

If there were a perfect fit match available in a non corrosive metal I'd say one & done. All I have seen is home depot plumbing brass T's and some stainless options but not the perfect fit for OEM hoses.

 

[2001LC]

Suggested changing T's @ every 5yrs or 50k miles interval then? $20 for plastic tees and a quart of coolant seems like cheap insurance.

If there were a perfect fit match available in a non corrosive metal I'd say one & done. All I have seen is home depot plumbing brass T's and some stainless options but not the perfect fit for OEM hoses.

I agree with both timing and stick with OEM.

With your knowledge of plastic's, do you think we're seeing earlier failures in newer 100 series due to a change in plastic of the tee's?

I'm thinking it may (80% chance) have to do with the change in coolant to Toyota SLL pink!

We've a few reports here in mud of older, higher mileage with Tees holding. Those systems call for Toyota LL red. I've know of one guy down the street from me, with a 1998 250K on the clock that never did coolant flush, time belt or tee replacement and he bought new in 98.

 

[abuck99]

I agree with both timing and stick with OEM.

With your knowledge of plastic's, do you think we're seeing earlier failures in newer 100 series due to a change in plastic of the tee's?

I'm thinking it may (80% chance) have to do with the change in coolant to Toyota SLL pink!

We've a few reports here in mud of older, higher mileage with Tees holding. Those systems call for Toyota LL red. I've know of one guy down the street from me, with a 1998 250K on the clock that never did coolant flush, time belt or tee replacement and he bought new in 98.

Often times updated parts are superseded a new part number and Toyota will show the older parts behind the current part number, so I checked the part number for the T's and sure enough there are (4) Part Numbers listed, 3 behind the current part number for our 100 series: 87248-60460 (87207-37780 status NLA; 87207-37800 Status NLA; 87248-28040 Status NLA) We could loosely conclude that the T's have changed somehow over the years to warrant new part number. But are the failures due to change in plastic material or some cooling system functionality issues? Its possible Toyota changed the: supplier, the mold, the material thickness, or the material composition. It would be really hard to know material change with out more science involved or an engineering spec and a TDS on the required plastic that is used for the part.

What I find interesting though is these heater T's fit 75 different model variants from 1993 to 2007 (Sienna minivans, Tundras, 80 series cruiser and 100 series cruisers). The key question is: Are there other Toyota models that have reported heater T failures and or run SLL that also have heater T failures or is our 100 series an anomaly and if it is why?? Trying to stitch together some conclusions about the product, environmental conditions (maintenance behaviors), or failures across multiple vehicle platforms might be tough. There is certainly enough model years here to identify a trend. If I had more time on my hands I would research it.

Coolant: SLL first change interval 100k, then every 50k. My understanding is that SLL is OAT (organic acid technology). I am not sure of the LL type but its either IAT (inorganic acid technology) or Hybrid OAT( combination of IAT & OAT technology). I am learning that not all OAT is the same composition: DEX-COOL (GM), Chrysler all have slight different formulas of their OAT with slightly different additive concentrations. The idea of mixing different brands of OAT (pink/red) should probably be avoided. In theory OAT is designed to form a protective oxide coating on the inside of the cooling system to inhibit corrosion, the chemical additives are not designed to be chemically consumed(slower chemical breakdown for longer life) anti cavitation properties, anti foaming properties. FWIW I think Toyota started switching to SLL in 2002, and for our LC platforms beginning in 2004.

Coolant flush or drain & fill intervals are important milestones to pay attention to. IMO more frequent is better(3-5yrs LL or SLL). As the coolant ages, it looses it chemical properties and actually becomes more corrosive, increased acidity and electrolysis. What makes things worse is if you run the system LOW on coolant, introduce air to the system for extended periods, or have an incorrect dilution ratio (or mix in the wrong type) which will lead to some serious cooling system problems.

This is a good resource for explaining all of the differences between conventional IAT and OAT antifreeze. Antifreeze FAQ

And another good reference from SAE International
SAE International -- mobility engineering


EDIT: 12/14 added information link from SAE

 

[2001LC]

BTW; hear is a picture of a head gasket leak. This one was between cylinders #2 & #4 on a 98 w 300K miles on it. History was unknown, but sign were Heeter Tees blew at some point and were replaced.

I've heard of headgasket leaks that were believed not associated with overheating. These were reported to me between cylinders #1 & #3. This is rare and can't be confirmed overheater wasn't the cause.

Fortunity blown engines are rare in any case so availability of used is good.

 

[2001LC]

Often times updated parts are superseded a new part number and Toyota will show the older parts behind the current part number, so I checked the part number for the T's and sure enough there are (4) Part Numbers listed, 3 behind the current part number for our 100 series: 87248-60460 (87207-37780 status NLA; 87207-37800 Status NLA; 87248-28040 Status NLA) We could loosely conclude that the T's have changed somehow over the years to warrant new part number. But are the failures due to change in plastic material or some cooling system functionality issues? Its possible Toyota changed the: supplier, the mold, the material thickness, or the material composition. It would be really hard to know material change with out more science involved or an engineering spec and a TDS on the required plastic that is used for the part.

What I find interesting though is these heater T's fit 75 different model variants from 1993 to 2007 (Sienna minivans, Tundras, 80 series cruiser and 100 series cruisers). The key question is: Are there other Toyota models that have reported heater T failures and or run SLL that also have heater T failures or is our 100 series an anomaly and if it is why?? Trying to stitch together some conclusions about the product, environmental conditions (maintenance behaviors), or failures across multiple vehicle platforms might be tough. There is certainly enough model years here to identify a trend. If I had more time on my hands I would research it.

My understanding is that SLL is in other terms DEX-COOL extended life type antifreeze. It is OAT (organic acid technology) It is designed to form a protective coating on the inside of the cooling system to inhibit corrosion and the chemical additives are not designed to be chemically consumed. But run the system LOW on coolant, introduce air to the system, add incorrect dilution ratio, or mix in the wrong type and this can lead to some serious cooling system problems. I am not sure of the SL type but its either IAT (inorganic acid technology) or Hybrid OAT( combination of IAT & OAT technology). We could study the MSDS for the SL & SLL for fun right?

This is a good resource for explaining all of the differences between conventional IAT and OAT antifreeze. Antifreeze FAQ

Good job on the research.

IIRC LL red is IAT, I just look and bottle doesn't say anylonger. SLL states Sabacic acid.

I recently happen to make mention of finding heater tees on new models in worst condition than older, while at a wholesale Toyota parts counter. First comment I heard was "plastic". But they didn't really know either, just speculating.

Frankly I'm a little more comfortable using Toyota LL 100% (red) and distilled water, for plastic and other reasons. One is I've a process for flushing using distilled water that has serviced me well, for more than 10 years. SLL pink states do not add water, that concerns me. Assumption is they say that because it is premix. I do use distilled water to flush with SLL pink systems, then spend extra time blowing out system. But it is not possible to get it all out. I'm 98% that's ok, but 100% sure it's ok with LL red.

Problem is, in switching a rig to red LL that calls for pink SLL, it then no longer conforms to Totoya PM schedule or fluid recommendation.

 

[abuck99]

Good job on the research.

IIRC LL red is IAT, I just look and bottle doesn't say anylonger. SLL states Sabacic acid.

I recently happen to make mention of finding heater tees on new models in worst condition than older, while at a wholesale Toyota parts counter. First comment I heard was "plastic". But they didn't really know either, just speculating.

Frankly I'm a little more comfortable using Toyota LL 100% (red) and distilled water, for plastic and other reasons. One is I've a process for flushing using distilled water that has serviced me well, for more than 10 years. SLL pink states do not add water, that concerns me. Assumption is they say that because it is premix. I do use distilled water to flush with SLL pink systems, then spend extra time blowing out system. But it is not possible to get it all out. I'm 98% that's ok, but 100% sure it's ok with LL red.

Problem is, in switch a rig to red that calls for pink, it no longer conforms to Totoya PM schedule or fluid recomendation.

Safe bet is if the OM/FSM calls for SLL- stick with Toyota SLL. LC/LX Models prior to 2004(?) can use LL. I would not use LL in model years 2004+.

 

[2001LC]

Toyota states the two are compatible.
That said; Caution dictates we must flush according to Toyota red LL more restrictive flush schedule of 30K mile or 2yr, if the two mixed.

IMHO Toyota pink SLL coolant replaced red LL primarily to compete with "cost of ownership" in the automotive industry.

I've seen more than one older 2UZ-ef converted to SLL. It's done primarily for two reason.
1) Belief latest greats is best.
2) To reduces flush interval.

IMHO this is wrong thinking.
1) I've concerns SLL may not be best for our systems. Possibly, it's just too long an interval between flushes.
2) Switching we still must flush 30K or 2yr, for at least three full flushes to be safe. As it not possible to get out every drop of old.

I know many will say "just throw any cheap off the shelf coolant in, it doesn't matter." I could not disagree more, coolant is just if not more important than lubes.

Here is where Toyota states we can mix. This is been on their web pages for years.
Genuine OEM Toyota Motor Oil & Transmission Fluid for Your Toyota
Super Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant
This special pink formula provides maximum protection without the use of harmful silicates. It’s extremely durable and was developed specifically to meet the requirements of your Toyota’s engine.

• Compatibility with non-metallic materials helps it extend the life of water pump seals.
• Won’t corrode aluminum surfaces like coolants that contain borate.
• Won’t clog radiators due to silicone "gelling."
• Pre-diluted 50/50.
• Compatible with Toyota red Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant.

 

[abuck99]

Agree with you on most every point. My understanding is that 04+ Cooling sustem internals- seals etc are spec’d for SLL. While compatible with LL I dont think the two have the same additives or corrosion inhibiting properties defintely not the same boil and freeze points. I pulled the SDS for LL and SLL from Worldpac website and noticed the key differences were boiling point and freeze point. SLL has a higher boiling point by nearly 100degrees, but the freeze point is significantly less (by 40 degrees+) than LL.

As you said, change interval is key. My plan is every 3 yrs with SLL regardless of miles(I wont hit more than 10k per year).

 

[2001LC]

I think 3 year is a good plan.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Is a tear down and rebuild of the existing, blown head gasket, motor not an option? New gasket kit, all new rubber, machine heads flat, reassemble and done?

 

[2001LC]

Is a tear down and rebuild of the existing, blown head gasket, motor not an option? New gasket kit, all new rubber, machine heads flat, reassemble and done?

I was weighing my option when I came upon a local VVt-i engine with about same milage. It looked clean and was in garage when I looked at it. Guy with engine is a body man, that had picked up a broadside 08 4runner for the body parts. He delivered it with transmission to my door, cheap. I figured just the VVt actuators and controls alone made it worth the price. A machine shop said I'd at least actuators if I had milkshake in the crankcase, so if nothing else the 4Runner engine have those.

No way to tell if blown engine rebuildable until I pull apart and haul down to machine shop. It got hot and machine shop time wood be high as lower end needs done as well! I'm thinking cost will be around $2k (crank, block & heads for machine) shop and $1.2K for parts.

I'm now just thinking I'll rebuild the 08 4R engine and swap in. No sign of overheating. The rebuild cost may drop a bit on it and it. I'd do a complete blueprint and have a zero mile engine.

I could just swap long blocks, with parts ~$700 to $900. But it's a lot of labor to roll the dice.

Have you done a rebuild of a 2UF VVT?

 

[suprarx7nut]

No, I haven't gone very far into a 2UZ. Most my experience is pretty narrowly surrounding the 7M (inline 6), though I've done a head gasket swap on a handful of other engines. My typical recipe, which has served me well for BHGs (blown head gasket), has been:

1. Machine heads flat at machine shop with a thorough clean and inspection.
2. Basic valve job
3. Hand clean block surfaces (no hand lapping)
4. If badly milkshaked, pull oil pan and replace all bearings, have crank polished
5. Reassemble and flush coolant and oil systems thoroughly. Usually 5 full oil changes with increasing change intervals starting with about 10-30 seconds of idle run time before the first change and coolant system flush with a hose.

If you've got a good second hand engine though, yeah I'd just toss that in. That blown 2UZ could make a great project motor for someone. I suspect with minimal prep work they could take some serious boost.

 

[2001LC]

Thanks for the outline.

Do you have a machine shop you like?
One guy recommended All Pro but online reviews not so hot.
Another recommended RidgeRemamer in Arvada, but they're know for Mopar.

My plan was just that, but I've now become uncomfortable with the second hand engine i have. Labor to install and roll the dice has me scratching my head. I really need a second pair of eye on it

 

[white_lx]

I recently happen to make mention of finding heater tees on new models in worst condition than older, while at a wholesale Toyota parts counter. First comment I heard was "plastic". But they didn't really know either, just speculating.

They look like phenolic to me. Known for its high temperature capability and chemical resistance. Probably injection molded fiberglass/phenolic or some other filler and phenolic. Think of Bakelite.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Thanks for the outline.

Do you have a machine shop you like?
One guy recommended All Pro but online reviews not so hot.
Another recommended RidgeRemamer in Arvada, but they're know for Mopar.

My plan was just that, but I've now become uncomfortable with the second hand engine i have. Labor to install and roll the dice has me scratching my head. I really need a second pair of eye on it

Eric @ Peak Performance in Longmont has done excellent work for me in the past. One of my heads he had completely cleaned up (to a level I'd never seen before) and then found a crack in an exhaust valve seat area. He didn't double-charge for any of the cleaning labor and hooked me up with a super cheap replacement head he had on hand. Excellent work and more than fair pricing. That head lasted until I sold the car. I abused it regularly and those 7M motors don't tolerate any flaws so his work was on point. He was a one man shop it seemed. He'd have his wife or family tending the phone and counter for him while he ran errands. Far as I know he's still around. Most his work seemed to be domestic, but he handled my stuff just fine. I always felt great supporting such a small and humble operation.

Where are you in Colorado? (PM if needed)

 

[2001LC]

Thanks Andy, PM was helpful.

If anyone else has a machine shop in Denver area, or experience to share about rebuilding or swapping engines I'd sure like to hear about it.