Put 100 octane (low lead) Aviation fuel in my 80 (1 Viewer)

[FJP971]

Annnnyway... Here is why I despise Corn Gas

E85 (15% corn juice) has roughly 30% less energy content as a gallon of pure gas.

Also ethanol blends deteriorate rubber, plastics and fiberglass. While there’s not much fiberglass in the fuel system there are tons of rubber hoses, o-rings and plastic pump parts and injectors..

Apparently auto parts stores are now selling rubber that is specifically designed to resist this deterioration but from what I’ve read it just prolongs the inevitable.

I would be fine running the 91 no Ethanol gas, I’d probably even bump the timing to 8-10 degrees advanced. The higher octane and increased timing will pair well and certainly give the old girl some more pep.

Personally I go out of my way to fill up with ethanol free gas, luckily there is a Murphy Express down the street from my office that sells corn free 87 octane. And yes I’ve averaged about 1mpg better when using the corn free go juice.


For everyone interested in finding ethanol free gas, there is an app called Pure Gas which list the stations around you which carry straight gas. It's not perfect as many of them are av gas / airport stations or race gas. But its crowd sourced so you can add notes to the stations which helps ID the ones that sell 85-91 pure gas.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

View attachment 1590198

This conversation sparked my interest so I started doing some reading. Looks like E10 (10% ethanol) fuel has roughly 96% of the energy of regular unleaded gas. Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia

E15 would likely contain about 94% of the energy of unleaded fuel.

E85 can contain up to 85% ethanol but I'd guess that it's never as low as 15%.

 

[Malleus]

And all the extra alcohol you don't need.

 

[SmokingRocks]

I like you smoking rocks. Haha. You gotta be from the boulder area with all that knowledge.

Haha No I couldnt stand or afford the taxes involved with living in the Republic of Boulder. I live in the kinda sorta more free state of Northern Colorado

This conversation sparked my interest so I started doing some reading. Looks like E10 (10% ethanol) fuel has roughly 96% of the energy of regular unleaded gas. Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia

E15 would likely contain about 94% of the energy of unleaded fuel.

E85 can contain up to 85% ethanol but I'd guess that it's never as low as 15%.

Thanks for digging up those numbers.

Calculating the % loss of power using BTU's

this is just crunching the numbers

E-100 = 34% less energy than Pure gas
E-85 = 29% Less Energy than Pure gas
E-10 = 2% Less Energy than Pure Gas

 

[inkpot]

Haha No I couldnt stand or afford the taxes involved with living in the Republic of Boulder. I live in the state of Northern Colorado



Thanks for digging up those numbers.

Sounds like Ft Longmont to me!

 

[ZackR]

For the original poster... Do yourself a favor and dilute the AV gas with regular automotive fuel and use it up and quick as you can. If you were in an old muscle car it wouldn't be an issue however the leaded fuel won't do any favors for your catalytic converter.

 

[skhochay]

I do not get this concept that higher octane will make car faster better - it is BS the higher octane the less combustible it is under the pressure - that is all folks , no need for that BS power.

 

[lastresort576]

I Hear ya! I’m certainly not a big fan of boulder myself.

 

[ironbinder]

Your increases are likely more a result of the 100% gas. Ethanol is pure bull**** that shouldn’t be in our gas, it’s the result of government meddling with s*** they shouldn’t be meddling with. Just like how we have these f’n amazing ‘spill proof’ gas cans that don't work with a sh!t...

Thank you government for trying to unf#ck a problem that never existed... How about you reallocate the time spent ****ing up something as simple as gas and gas cans to.. I don't know maybe getting us out of wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Nigeria and Yemen... How about we do that... F^ck am I the only american left with common sense?!

-rant over-

Annnnyway... Here is why I despise Corn Gas

E85 (15% corn juice) has roughly 30% less energy content as a gallon of pure gas.

Also ethanol blends deteriorate rubber, plastics and fiberglass. While there’s not much fiberglass in the fuel system there are tons of rubber hoses, o-rings and plastic pump parts and injectors..

Apparently auto parts stores are now selling rubber that is specifically designed to resist this deterioration but from what I’ve read it just prolongs the inevitable.

I would be fine running the 91 no Ethanol gas, I’d probably even bump the timing to 8-10 degrees advanced. The higher octane and increased timing will pair well and certainly give the old girl some more pep.

Personally I go out of my way to fill up with ethanol free gas, luckily there is a Murphy Express down the street from my office that sells corn free 87 octane. And yes I’ve averaged about 1mpg better when using the corn free go juice.


For everyone interested in finding ethanol free gas, there is an app called Pure Gas which list the stations around you which carry straight gas. It's not perfect as many of them are av gas / airport stations or race gas. But its crowd sourced so you can add notes to the stations which helps ID the ones that sell 85-91 pure gas.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

View attachment 1590198

I agree with your rant 100%.
Anyone that believes the mainstream media news coverage of global and domestic events is extremely ignorant.

 

[White Stripe]

You can add water injection and advance the timing a little more, but it will only give you marginal power increase. However the water is very good at keeping the intake and combustion chamber clean which should prolong engine life by keeping the rings clean.

 

[ironbinder]

super confused
did you do this on purpose?

if not:
were there other nozzles there as well (reg, mid, premium) car gas next to the aviation fuel?
The nozzles are the same size?
How did you pay? Didn't notice the price difference? attendant didn't stop you or at least question you? no signage?
Why would one assume that car gas would be readily available at an airstrip near the plane refueling area?
Were there other cars there fueling up?
on your phone the entire time and not paying attention to the world around you? I'm seeing this more and more.

No, I’ve just always wanted to try putting aviation fuel deliberately, premeditatedly in to one of my vehicles. I know that you are supposed to only do it with old big block engine type cars but I just wanted to try it in my Land Cruiser. After I was done I started thinking maybe this wasn’t a good idea, that’s why I made this post to see what kind of responses I would get

 

[Desert Dino]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you @Desert Dino

Your statements about the benifits of corn used as fuel are widely disproved by many many scientific studies. Yes growing corn or anything for that matter is done so through the process of photosynthesis; absorption of CO2 by the plant converted to simple sugar glucose atp and what not by utilizing light energy. That's great and if the story ended there then sweet we can all sing kumbaya and ride our unicorns home.

BUT studies have shown that converting corn to ethanol in a government subsidized market has lead to increased clearing of rain-forest. Just fyi the CO2 absorption of 1 acre of living rain-forest greatly exceeds that of 1 acre of corn. One such study was preformed by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences again confirmed the above statement and concluded that the combined climate change and health cost are:

• $469m for Gas
• $472-$952m for Corn Ethanol
• $123-$208m for Cellulosic Ethanol

Cellulosic Ethanol could help reduce green house emissions by as much as 90% when compared to pure gas. It is much cleaner fuel and research has shown it has far less of an impact on deforestation rates. But cellulose ethanol is not feasible to produce on a massive scale.

I understand that the initial theory was that CO2 emissions due to the production of ethanol would be canceled out by the next crop but that has proved to be short sighted. Study's have shown that it is not as neutral as many had thought, CO2 released from the processing of the corn into ethanol for example is not counterbalanced. Another study shows that burning 1 liter of ethanol vs 1 liter of pure gas netted only a 20% reduction in greenhouse gasses.

When you factor in the cost:

• Deforestation
• CO2 resulting from production not being canceled out
• 34% less energy per unit than gasoline

for the benifit:

• 20% reduction in greenhouse gasses (if running e-100)
• renewability

it doesn't equate. All things equal you are reducing the energy potential of a unit of fuel by blending which reduces the range that the vehicle can travel on that one unit. Potentially by 30%. So instead of going 100 miles you only go 70 miles on that fuel unit, and realistically you aren't seeing the full 20% reduction in greenhouse gasses with a blend. So is it worth it to burn more fuel to go less distance?

So yes the theory is amazing, but it doesn't capture the whole picture. I'm happy to share the studies if you are interested.

My name is Dr. Avi meshulam I work in the petrochemical sector all my life and I am not young

@SmokingRocks Defrosting for corn ETOH? Not happening the only place in the world that subsidence this is USA not so much rain forests there

The only other country subsidizing sugar (sugar cane) for chemistry is Brasil and this is nothing to do with ETOH

The ecological impact on greenhouse gases of corn and Cellulosic Ethanol is almost identical the same "New Carbon" the economics different

The reason for the development of Cellulosic Ethanol by reforming of horse grass and agricultural left overs is not to compete with edible and food growing

 

[Red Merle]

My name is Dr. Avi meshulam I work in the petrochemical sector all my life and I am not young

@SmokingRocks Defrosting for corn ETOH? Not happening the only place in the world that subsidence this is USA not so much rain forests there

The only other country subsidizing sugar (sugar cane) for chemistry is Brasil and this is nothing to do with ETOH

The ecological impact on greenhouse gases of corn and Cellulosic Ethanol is almost identical the same "New Carbon" the economics different

The reason for the development of Cellulosic Ethanol by reforming of horse grass and agricultural left overs is not to compete with edible and food growing

What is your take on this study then?

As ethanol cropland grew, carbon releases undercut climate goal, study says

 

[SmokingRocks]

The only other country subsidizing sugar (sugar cane) for chemistry is Brasil and this is nothing to do with ETOH

Well Good Doctor, are you sure you want to say that to someone who has lived in Brasil for years? I'll let you think on that.

Remember presence or lack thereof a title before or after ones name does not make them a sole authority on subjects being discussed.

A major pet peeve of mine is when someone attempts to shut down opposing views because they 'are educated' 'have a title' etc. That is great but it doesn't mean that anyone with an inquisitive smart brain can't learn everything and more than those standing on their soap boxes. said the lowly engineer.


I'm not claiming to know more about how the valance bond of whatever molecule affects x,y or z than you. And I don't doubt that you know your subject mater. But what are you trying to prove? That ethanol is net neutral in terms of Greenhouse gas emissions? Based on some very basic research it clearly isn't. For you to claim that it is net neutral is the same as claiming an absolute which 9.99 times out of 10 is false. Even undergraduate freshman's know better than to stand behind an absolute when the issue involves as many variables as this one does..

 

[SmokingRocks]

THis is the second time you have come across as condescending towards me in a thread.

Once is an mistake, twice is a pattern, thrice is a habit.

You sir are quickly moving toward the ‘ignore this user’ list.

 

[Cass007]

... just gonna sit back and watch this train derail m-kay.

 

[White Stripe]

This thread is kinda getting off track.

 

[Marine7]

Sounds like a good plan!

There was a time when the governments influence in the economy was around 3-5%... today that number is north of 45%... Which is terrifying and gives us crap like corn gas and gas cans that cost billions to engineer yet don't accomplish their intended purpose.

-End-

Don’t even get me started on what that corn juice mixed garbage does to my boats!!! I had my 2 454 Crusaders rebuilt because of that garbage! (Only cost me $8500!!!), and now they say it’s ok for marine engines....... BS!!! Anyone that believes a word of what big gov says is living with blinder on!!!

 

[SmokingRocks]

This thread is kinda getting off track.

Well o think we came to the end of the OP’s track relatively quick... it was a pretty basic question and answer. Then you see the result of some loose time and intrigue.

 

[Cass007]

Coming from what little I know about this in the tuner car world. Several guys swapped over to E85 in order to run more boost and make more power. That being said, you have to push a ton of fuel to make it run well, so full fuel return systems and usually 1000-1200cc injectors. In addition to that, it's caustic and will eat away at metal surfaces over time, especially if you let your car sit over the winter without purging the fuel lines first.

On the other side, IMO and my actual experience, running a tank of 100 octane won't have any effect. Almost everyone with a Mustang, Corvette, Camaro or modified import is running 100 oct or higher on track or dyno days. Many without any piggy-back or stand-alone cpu to change the timing, injector cycle or air/fuel ratio. One tank shouldn't do anything.

Lastly, if you can find a small local gas station that still carries fuel without ethanol ... use it. It will cost more per gallon, but your truck will likely run a bit smoother. I know for a fact that ethanol will clog the fuel filters on lawnmowers, chain saws and weed trimmers. I've had it happen to me personally and the repair is as simple as changing the filter and not using ethanol gas anymore. This seems especially important on the older mower and saw I own that were made around the same time as my 97 trucks.

I am not a scientist (and I don't play one on TV and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night either), but I believe most of what Proven has said to be accurate. I will add one note to his thoughts here:

The price of beef and dairy has increased year over year as a result (Ethanol Helps Boost Meat Prices) because we are using corn that would have been surplus to be used for feed. Instead that excess is going to make fuel additives. So now corn farmers are selling less for feed stock and more for fuel stocks. When the price of feed goes up, so does the price of food.

In the restaurant industry, we saw a huge spike in the cost of flour just after ethanol became a gas additive. Our vendors explained to us that there was massive flooding in Russia and China that year and they were paying premium prices to import grains. In years past it would have had little effect because the US always ran a surplus, but now much of that land had been converted from wheat to corn to produce ethanol. I'm sure there is a political component to this as well, but what do I know? I'm just a hillbilly that makes bagels and likes to play with cars and trucks.

 

[Rifleman]

No, I’ve just always wanted to try putting aviation fuel deliberately, premeditatedly in to one of my vehicles. I know that you are supposed to only do it with old big block engine type cars but I just wanted to try it in my Land Cruiser. After I was done I started thinking maybe this wasn’t a good idea, that’s why I made this post to see what kind of responses I would get

Just as an FYI it is against the law to put Av gas into any vehicle driven on public roads, so don't let the PTB catch you. The reason for this, no road use tax is collected on AV gas. This is kind of like getting caught using "red" diesel in your truck during a road side inspection, they don't collect road tax on it at the pump either.