1FZ Head Porting and CNC (2 Viewers)

[hazard]

W

Closest I came to machining my head was Extrude Honing but the cost was ridiculous. So I sat with a carbide bit, plexiglass, mineral oil, food color and an eye dropper. BUT...because I was in between film shoots at the time I didn't have time to finish it the way I wanted to. Its a lot of time. Far easier to balance the pistons and rods.

hat was the cost for extruded? Not that I believe that is a good way to go, but it might be a start, especially for the high rpm guys.

 

[Qball]

Would it be more economical to cast a new one at this point?

 

[NLXTACY]

W

hat was the cost for extruded? Not that I believe that is a good way to go, but it might be a start, especially for the high rpm guys.

IIRC it was north of $1500

 

[Qball]

Like this?
View attachment 1558341

Wow!!!!! That's thing is pure sex!!!

 

[hazard]

Th

And just to give you an idea, MS75's head was an all out effort. It was done on a bad head and cut back to the point the thickness was only .060" and built back up with devcon to find the limits. But the flow was very good considering it is a forklift motor.

1FZ vs 2JZ ported head flows.

Intake
lift - 1FZ CFM - Greg's 2JZ CFM
.1" - 110 - 108.8
.2" - 218 - 160.6
.3" - 302 - 227.3
.4" - 341 - 282.4
.5" - 361 - 299.9
.6" - 410 - 303

Exhaust:
lift - 1FZ CFM - Greg's 2JZ CFM
.1" - 95 - 99
.2" - 168 - 179.2
.3" - 223.8 - 211.8
.4" - 247.2 - 222.4
.5" - 255.6 - 230.4
.6" - 261 - 233.7

Thats good info. Exactly what I need to plug into simulator, although Port velocities would be just as important.
I will use these and see what happens.
The problem I have, is that hand porting could never make each Port identical, and that is not “ blueprinting “ that’s why I was researching cnc

 

[hazard]

As someone learning code & pursuing this for a career, the I6 head just is too long to fit most of the turntables for the 4th & 5th axis. Not without buying time on a serious machine with a company who isn't concerned with car parts (think the intake fan on jet engines) - so the budget thing just would have to be tossed unless a guy like me gets a big enough cradle & codes it as a labor of love, since if you charge more than ~$500 I seriously doubt how many would pay for the labor.

Techtonics is a VW tuner who had a flowbench & hand ported the various VW induction side parts & head. They had a tech zone on their site long ago, describes their methods & mentality.

I agree w/ Onur, you can get some gain with just the kit from Eastwood & the Dremel with the cable wand for the lower intake.

Yup.
It’s all about the $. So much possibility. Not enough dough

 

[hazard]

Like this?
View attachment 1558341

Exactly. I have seen this. Totally doable, just needs the interest and $$$$

 

[hazard]

I don't know that I would go too far beyond some light port "clean up" on anything that's going to see anything close to daily usage. Sure, there are alot of gains to be had but on a full report that has a large change on port volume those gains would be found well out of the rpm range that 99% of us use our engine in. Great for a sand drag project but would likely be a net loss for a off road/camping/driver rig, stick with a carbide burr and focus on cleaning up casting flash and irregularities close to the valve seat.

That’s not really correct. Power can be found down low also. We drive around 2,000 and boot it to much higher when passing or playing. For true rock crawlers not much is needed as the super low gears do it all, but for daily drivers some more power from 1800 up would be good. With enough you could even lower gearing and shoot for more mileage.

 

[hazard]

Yup. I believe Robbie charges 11hrs labor for a port and polish. Though don’t quote me. Best to talk with Robbie.

Pretty reasonable for sure!

 

[hazard]

The problem i see with a project like this is limited demand for the CNC shop. Since there aren't many owners of 1FZ engines who want to have this level of work done, i just don't see this as being cost effective. YMMV

You are so right.
Too bad for us all!

 

[SmokingRocks]

Everyone is talking about making more power and I'm sitting her scratching my head looking at the a442f or a343 that has 30-40% parasitic loss....

A true 5 speed manual behind a stock 1fz-fe will give far more grins per mile than a port n polish. The cost variance likely isn't that much.

 

[hazard]

Th

IIRC it was north of $1500

ats not too bad, considering had Port might take 20 hrs or more. Only issue is the results. Doesn’t it just enlarge the ports? If so that is not ideal, they need tapering and finishing as flow is only part of the equation

 

[scottryana]

That is 30-40% loss in the entire drivetrain not just the transmission. I think there is a lot of loss in the full-time 4wd. I would like to try a back to back dyno test with the center diff locked and unlocked.

Everyone is talking about making more power and I'm sitting her scratching my head looking at the a442f or a343 that has 30-40% parasitic loss....

A true 5 speed manual behind a stock 1fz-fe will give far more grins per mile than a port n polish. The cost variance likely isn't that much.

 

[hazard]

Would it be more economical to cast a new one at this point?

Casting is so 80 s. A whole head can be cnc digitized and machined now, with whatever mods you want. Just need the moola!

 

[hazard]

Everyone is talking about making more power and I'm sitting her scratching my head looking at the a442f or a343 that has 30-40% parasitic loss....

A true 5 speed manual behind a stock 1fz-fe will give far more grins per mile than a port n polish. The cost variance likely isn't that much.

Agreed, however an auto is nice for most. That’s my next project, modding the auto for better response and drivability, or perhaps adapt a different auto.

 

[hazard]

That is 30-40% loss in the entire drivetrain not just the transmission. I think there is a lot of loss in the full-time 4wd. I would like to try a back to back dyno test with the center diff locked and unlocked.

I think everyone should install the hub and part time kit. Why turn all that gear when you don’t need it. I have done on one cruiser and love it.

 

[hazard]

OK, a bit off track to the thread, but we are here for a reason.
Quick poll, no long answers:
What would you like the ngine in your Cruiser to do what it doesn’t now. I know we don’t all want 1/4 mile times below 10 and 10,000 rpm. So what is it? Let’s build it!

 

[LINUS]

Would it be more economical to cast a new one at this point?

Quite possibly, this would take either a dedicated 5-axis (no 3-axis with a trunion, there's so few ways to make a I6 head fit). And around here & in the few shops I know with them, it's budgeted for the maximization of profit/hr runtime. Aerospace, not auto parts.

Casting is so 80 s. A whole head can be cnc digitized and machined now, with whatever mods you want. Just need the moola!

Oh sure. While I like the attitude I have priced blocks of billet (pet project would be buying 18" billet rounds for 17" wheels exactly like our 5 spoke, I'm big on understatement) - so let's for giggles price 10x8 billet in 25' sticks (most economical, would yield still <10 heads/stick) - and then since it would take easily a Mazak based mill since last time I went through the Haas lineup I never saw a 5-axis with a table our head fit - so the cost would get real heady real quick.

FWIW, you buy an Edelbrock head, they cast it, then mill it.

Cast with a cleanup CNC is really the norm, I'm sure somebody does real billet heads but those $2000+/pr V8 heads from Edelbrock are cast.

Above & beyond that, the ROI/hp gain I doubt will make it worth it compared to even paying Robbie ~$100/hr @ 11hr quote.

Labor of love, sure - and when I get to a point I can code for this, I bet I'll look into it. But really there's like 2 guys who wouldn't balk at whatever the final price.

But hey, I like the idea - and with access to the right size machine that isn't booked 24/7 might make it happen.
Right about when that doubler comes out & is on the market

Really my final projects for my final grading are already slated (and they are both 12-16mo out anyhow) - but I could look at this as a pet project for nothing but pure "fun-sies".

Maybe when that turbo kit materializes (no clue on who/where that's at) - but without a 4.6 or forced induction this just seems an albatross, even if it was a P&P on core exchange. IDK yet. I'm still new enough to know there's far more for me to learn yet than how far along I am to be guessing on $$$/unit.

 

[gummycarbs]

What would you like the ngine in your Cruiser to do what it doesn’t now. I know we don’t all want 1/4 mile times below 10 and 10,000 rpm. So what is it? Let’s build it!

Get 10% better fuel mileage, while producing more peak power, without negatively impacting daily drivability. And a pony.

 

[hazard]

I think that should be easy with a good build. That is basically what I am after. The stroker takes care of most of that. Problem is that it’s probably cheaper to do a swap or mild turbo.
Oh well, life is a compromise!