A little Helicoil help (1 Viewer)

[toadshade]

I am about to helicoil a new stud for my water pump. Since it is so far in there, the tool provided will not work. I was just going to thread the coil on the stud, dab a dot of blue thread locker on it, and just thread it in. Tighten it to the recommended 15 psi that the nut is supposed to be tightened to with a double nut and that's it. Good idea? Better ideas?

And I know this should be a new thread, but any brand names of a good torque wrench? Just go with something well known like Snap-on? I am in this mess because I used a cheap one that broke when I was trying to install the pump. I definitely don't want that to happen again. I need something sensitive enough that I can trust at as little as 15 psi.

 

[tacoma2002]

You really need to use the tool to seat the coil. The coil spreads a touch when the bolt is threaded into it so there's a chance the coil wont seat all the way. Weld/epoxy a piece of stock to the tool to extend it. Better to do it once correctly. Good luck!

 

[Dave 2000]

If you cannot extend the tool, can you jump up a size on thread an use a tap and create a new thread for a one size larger bolt or stud?

I appreciate the water bolt hole also may need to be enlarged but we are talking a very small amount here.

Regards

Dave

 

[sbman]

I've never seen a heli coil hold long term. I would either tap it for a larger stud/bolt or go with a Time-sert (which may be even more difficult to get in there).

Any standard 'beam' style torque wrench is good for 15 lbs/ft.

Such as this:

Performance Tool M195 0-80 in/lb & 0-7 Newton-meter Beam Style Torque Wrench - - Amazon.com

Probably more accurate than a clicker at the low range, or you can go with an inch pound clicker and tighten to 180 in/lb which is equivalent to 15 ft/lbs

 

[samiam09]

time-serts work best

 

[gbeltran]

I'm wondering how the install tool isn't long enough, if the tap was long enough the tool should be also, unless you have an older set with the plastic installer. Personally I've never had a heli-coil fail, although I do like the time-serts better.
Which stud stripped? The upper one or the lower one? If it's the lower cant you just get a bolt long enough to go thru and put a nut on the other side? Upper stud, not so much.

 

[bajaphile]

Hmm interesting to hear about the Helicoil failure @sbman. I've personally never used them before, but was planning on to fix the threads on my lower panhard mount on the axle side. I was worried since its a large m16x1.5 thread.

Threaded inserts like Timesert are great and only a little more than a genuine Helicoil kit. Since you need to countersink the hole prior to installing the timesert, that might pose more issues for tight areas though?

I have noticed that we have been straying away from Helicoil repair and even in new design at my company. We often use key'ed inserts like Keensert. I think they are $$$ though.

 

[sbman]

When I've used helicoils, they are often OK when you first assemble the joint. Then next time you need to take it apart, it all falls apart. Initially they seem to hold OK, but if they have to ever be taken apart again, then you're facing another repair. I'd rather just do it once. Time-serts are reasonably priced and solve the problem even with joints that have to be taken apart. I have had to fix a stripped spark plug hole in an aluminum head, and Time-serts provide a permanent solution even in such a demanding application. I haven't used Keensert, but possibly the concept is the same.

 

[toadshade]

Ok great. I will have to check out the timeserts. I am not familiar with them. I did not know that the helicoils are prone to fail. I have only used them a couple times. But would the possible failure be lessened for a thread at such a low preassure? (Upper stud by the way) But I am still looking into the timesert. And as for the tool being too short, yes, I am only familiar with I guess the older short tool. But I guess it would be easy enough to weld it on to an extension. Going up in size is a good idea too. I might make my ultimate decision after I get the nut off and stud out. Right now it is just spinning both ways and I see a PITA about to start. Thanks everyone. This really helped.

 

[maxamillion2345]

I have timeserts in my alloy beadlocks for the beadlock ring bolts. They're excellent. Been in and out of em a few times with blue loctite on the theads.

 

[ReformedJeeper]

I've never seen a heli coil hold long term. I would either tap it for a larger stud/bolt or go with a Time-sert (which may be even more difficult to get in there).

Any standard 'beam' style torque wrench is good for 15 lbs/ft.

Such as this:

Performance Tool M195 0-80 in/lb & 0-7 Newton-meter Beam Style Torque Wrench - - Amazon.com

Probably more accurate than a clicker at the low range, or you can go with an inch pound clicker and tighten to 180 in/lb which is equivalent to 15 ft/lbs

I think that's poor installation causing the helicoil failures you have seen. I have one in my passenger side knuckle for the brake caliper bolt (and it's properly torqued to 91 ft lbs) for 3 years. I've had to remove the brake caliper several times and the helicoil has held fine. I've used them multiple times in my old xj , once for the transmission pan, another for the transmission crossmember bolt. I've never had one fail.

They are used extensively in aluminum aircraft applications to prevent wearing of the aluminum base metal. If you've flown in a plane I'm highly confident you have relied on a helicoil.

Also, timeserts are good but they are expensive if you're going to use them for a one time application. The tools are much more expensive than a helicoil.

 

[gbeltran]

Not sure a timesert will work unless you plan on removing the timing cover or enlarging the hole the stud goes through so you can get that lipped end to pass through. I'm about 100 percent positive you don't need superman style holding power here, we are talking about 15 foot pounds and 5 other bolts also holding the pump on.

From one of your posts you say "when I get the nut off and the stud out," does that mean you haven't pulled it yet? If so, you may get lucky and it's just the nut that stripped, they are pretty soft metal and I find that more likely than pulling the thread out of an iron block via the stud. I would think if it spun freely and both ways you would be able to just grab it with some pliers and pull the whole thing out.

 

[toadshade]

You know you have a good point. I have not taken a good look to see if the nut is stripped. I am going out right now. I assumed it was the aluminum part of the housing that was stripped. But if it is iron, then there is no way I stripped that. I did not put enough pressure on it to do that. I sure hope to hell you are right.

 

[toadshade]

Holy crap that was it! I had just used a ratchet and never looked at it just figuring it was definitely the aluminum! Well, this has been a learning experience. Now if we could just change the topic from helicoil to how the hell do I get this nut off??? I cannot believe that stud was that soft. After I get the nut off, will this stud turn out so I can replace it? Will I just use pliers? No way to double nut the thing now that it is stripped. Or I could just weld the nut to the stud. Would that be the best way to back it out?

 

[sbman]

I think that's poor installation causing the helicoil failures you have seen. I have one in my passenger side knuckle for the brake caliper bolt (and it's properly torqued to 91 ft lbs) for 3 years. I've had to remove the brake caliper several times and the helicoil has held fine. I've used them multiple times in my old xj , once for the transmission pan, another for the transmission crossmember bolt. I've never had one fail.

They are used extensively in aluminum aircraft applications to prevent wearing of the aluminum base metal. If you've flown in a plane I'm highly confident you have relied on a helicoil.

Also, timeserts are good but they are expensive if you're going to use them for a one time application. The tools are much more expensive than a helicoil.

Probably is poor installations I've seen. I think a steel helicoil on aluminum would work better than steel on iron in any case.

 

[bloc]

Hmm interesting to hear about the Helicoil failure @sbman. I've personally never used them before, but was planning on to fix the threads on my lower panhard mount on the axle side. I was worried since its a large m16x1.5 thread.

Threaded inserts like Timesert are great and only a little more than a genuine Helicoil kit. Since you need to countersink the hole prior to installing the timesert, that might pose more issues for tight areas though?

Personally I wouldn't be using any thread repair scheme for a panhard bolt.. I'd be cutting the mount apart to weld in a new appropriate grade nut.

Or I could just weld the nut to the stud. Would that be the best way to back it out?

That is what I would do. The only advantage to cutting the nut off first is you can get the pump out of the way to try heating the stud base before you attempt to turn it out of whatever it is threaded into.

 

[gbeltran]

I'm still of the opinion it's the nut and not the stud, although stripping the threads off the stud is possible. See if you can maybe try prying the nut with a narrow screwdriver while turning it. Or get some vise grips on the nut and pry on the pliers while turning the nut. Else you can get a nut splitter, although not sure if they're readily available at a parts house anymore.

 

[toadshade]

Ok great. Thanks again. This has saved a lot of time and made my day a lot easier. I will get back when I twist the stud and break it off after welding.

 

[toadshade]

I'm still of the opinion it's the nut and not the stud, although stripping the threads off the stud is possible. See if you can maybe try prying the nut with a narrow screwdriver while turning it. Or get some vise grips on the nut and pry on the pliers while turning the nut. Else you can get a nut splitter, although not sure if they're readily available at a parts house anymore.

/QUOTE] no you were right. It.was the nut. Thanks so much for bringing that up.

 

[Dave 2000]

I did production runs with helicoils into aluminium for MOD work, never heard of any failures, preparation is the key here.

Regards

Dave