80 series guy needs advice on 200 series vs. LX 570 (1 Viewer)

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I might get some flack for this, and I haven't mentioned this because as most you know, I don't want to be the guy who is always talking things down, even though it seem to happen most of the time.

Long travel. My FJ had a true long traveled from end, 7" wider in the front, 13" of travel long travel.
My rear was my own concoction of cuting and welding to make 29" of rear end travel.
Not a sway bar to be found and damn could I fly over the desert.

Now hear is the kicker, a 200 series in completely stock form goes higher up an RTI ramp than my FJ. Wow right! I was blown away when I first sway it.

Now back to long travel, I know some of us have it, and yes it can be the right way to go for tire clearance reason. But some that I learned from not just having long travel, but running weeks on end in a cross country/overland type wheeling is that having your tire stick out past your body gets old, real damn quick. Also take into account that the wheel can't be still flush with the body, on the slightest turn, you will still through mud/clay all on the side of the truck.

Just imagine when you are living out in the trail for weeks, and having everything from the door handles to sliders and windows covered, or windows are down and you get hit with a big hunk of crap.

So I take the cost, the unnecessary mud Moab clay/east cost mud flinging, and look at the fact that a normal track width 200 already has a better articulation setup than a 15k suspension in a FJ/Tacoma/4Runner. And say why are people wasting their money?

I'm sorry, but having the front of a 200 the width of a tundra with a high quality shock isn't going to give any real differences over a stock track width with high quality shock 200. I can hit bumps off road just as fast as the tundra arm guy and stay just as smooth and controlled.

If you need to fit a bigger tire, okay, it's a better idea than wheel spacers.

But when did anyone look at a Tundra and say, "man their front end flexes so good."

Now if you want to remove KDSS (don't cause it's awesome) and put in a tundra 3" long travel, making a total of 9" wider front, and cutting the fenders to nothing to make it fit, then yea, now we are talking.

Sorry, old desert and rock buggy guy rant complete.

This is exactly why I'm happy with my OME suspension and Rock Warriors without spacers.
 
As someone with an '08 LC and a '13 LX I can make a few observations.
I don't do much rock crawling but I have tested the LC crawl a few times. I have never found the articulation in the LC to be lacking but neither has the LX. Honestly, I haven't tested the LX as well as the LC but I don't see any difference where I go. One drawback to the LX is the expense of adding sliders, which are pretty much a necessity, because you have to buy LC rocker panels to replace the OEM. Pita. The auto height is a bonus, imo, especially if you pull a trailer. Or if you have a wife, it drops down when shut off to where a normal person can get in and out without a ladder. I was really surprised going from a 4Runner to the LC when I found out there was no auto height. The LC needs air bags if towing which starts to reduce the slider expense, evening it out a bit. Even with all the chrome and bling I would buy a LX before a LC because the comforts and ride are just way nicer. But I drive on gravel more than rock so a hard core rock crawler may be better suited to an LC. And I did put over 200,000 miles on the LC.
 
I'm curious how the LX does at high speed on dirt/sand. One of the places where the BP-51's truly shine is at speed over rough stuff, and especially when cornering at speed on rough. It just soaks the hits up and just keeps you tracking unimpeded.
 
Here's my question on the LXs ACH.

When the vehicle height raises, how much shock extension is left at the top ride height?
 
Here's my question on the LXs ACH.

When the vehicle height raises, how much shock extension is left at the top ride height?

Ya, the video explanation of KDSS also included an explanation of AHC & it says the springs compress 110 millimeters when at speed...so high speed means you are losing a full 110mm of travel...which might be interesting if you ever hit a major bump on the outside while cornering at speed in the dirt. Maybe you can turn lowering off?

It also says the suspension has 630mm of articulation when wheeling, but no mention about speedier travel.

It's at about 3:20 for the AHC graphics:
 
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The LX are great trucks and it's not as if they're incapable off-road or anything like that. Re: towing, the adjustable height is certainly convenient.

Another factor to consider though is that with AHC their towing rating is only 7,000 lbs, whereas the LC is 8,500 lbs. Firestone airbags for the LC are all of $99 on Amazon Prime so aside from installation (which could easily happen at the same time you're thinking about a lift on the LC) there isn't much incremental cost and you have a lot more tow capacity - if you need it.

If our truck was going to stay on pavement all the time we likely would have got an LX. We had a Cayenne Turbo, Mercedes GL550, and an X5M before the LC and the wife definitely liked the upscale nature of those trucks. With that said I didn't trust any of them re: long-term reliability, and while 2 of the three had the potential to leave the pavement - especially in the Cayenne's case (our Turbo S had a real low range!) - it wasn't the right place for any of them. The LX is certainly a cut above any of those trucks in this regard but I was trying to eliminate capability compromises.

There are a lot of pros for the LX; there are a lot more of them out there to shop, pound for pound they're frequently slightly less expensive versus the LC on the used market, the Lexus dealer experience is a huge improvement over Toyota, the truck is nicer to live with inside - definitely some benefits.

But if you think you might go over substantial rocks at any point I think your long-term capability options are far more open on a LC.
 
LX stock suspension is only going to take you so far before you have to replace that too. And you may be able to "trick" your suspension to get another inch but that can't be good on the components. Plus, after 20mph the truck auto lowers? That would be bad news for a lot of people, 20mph is not fast.

You're not really "tricking" the AHC, it's sill in its factory allowed range with roughly 1.25" of lift. It does auto lower over 20mph from "high" unless you're in 4L. I honestly never have had an issue with this offload in my LX. The trails where I live, you're not going over 20mph off-road and if you are you have plenty of clearance in "normal". The lowering it mentions at the end of the video is at 65mph for highway use.

Seems like a lot of people speculating in this thread about the AHC, while they don't have AHC or have used it off-road.
 
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You're not really "tricking" the AHC, it's sill in its factory allowed range with roughly 1.25" of lift. It does auto lower over 20mph from "high" unless you're in 4L. I honestly never have had an issue with this offload in my LX. The trails where I live, you're not going over 20mph off-road and if you are you have plenty of clearance in "normal". The lowering it mentions at the end of the video is at 65mph for highway use.

Seems like a lot of people speculating in this thread about the AHC, while they don't have AHC or have used it off-road.

I was speculating for sure...but I routinely hit speedier stretches in the sand or dirt at above 20mph. I mentioned it because being lowered in that terrain would no t be preferable to me, and I was wondering if there was a way to override the lowering.
 
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The air suspension our our CTTS behaved almost identically to the LX. I had it down some fire roads a few times and I was not a fan of the auto lowering. I also drove a '13 LX before we got the LC and played with the suspension; did you read anything I wrote as speculation @DeckerT4R?
 
Ya, the video explanation of KDSS also included an explanation of AHC & it says the springs compress 110 millimeters when at speed...so high speed means you are losing a full 110mm of travel...which might be interesting if you ever hit a major bump on the outside while cornering at speed in the dirt. Maybe you can turn lowering off?

It also says the suspension has 630mm of articulation when wheeling, but no mention about speedier travel.

It's at about 3:20 for the AHC graphics:

I guess what I'm wondering is that every adjustable airbag suspension I've seen has been the same, but I don't have experience with the LX570 so the reason I'm wondering about shock length is this:

Shock are supposed to be tailored to their neighboring ride height. If you put a taller coil in and can ensure that you can get more down travel, you make sure your shock can extend enough for the ride height.

Think if you put in a taller coil, your truck ride higher now, but you keep the stock shock, with its shock compression and extension lengths.

Here my complain with these systems. When they lift themselves into the higherest ride higher position, the shock only has a couple more inches of travel before reaching it extension limit.

Now here is my problem, when at full height, off road, you hit little bumps and things, and the shock doesn't have the extension travel to go much further. So with small bounces up and down, the bounce up is followed by an unruly and annoying shock slamming its limit.

It makes it to where the highest setting is unable to be used at higher off road speed. Probably why it lowers itself at 29 mph.

One of my friends '14 grand Cherokee has the air suspension, and the highest height was unbearable to actually drive off road because of constant slamming of a limited shock.

Is the LX like that? I don't know, I've never drive one off-road, this is just a concern I have, and haven't been able to find out yet.
 
The air suspension our our CTTS behaved almost identically to the LX. I had it down some fire roads a few times and I was not a fan of the auto lowering. I also drove a '13 LX before we got the LC and played with the suspension; did you read anything I wrote as speculation @DeckerT4R?

I was more mentioning the thread as a whole, nothing personal.
 
Long arm suspension, 33" tires, winch bar, rear steel bumper, sliders and possible a RTT and or offroad trailer..

@silverhorse - reflecting on the weight of your proposed setup, I became curious and went and looked up GVWR for these trucks:

2016 LX570:
- GVWR: 7,385 lbs
- Curb Weight: ~6,000 lbs per Lexus, but in practice Car and Driver weighed their '16 at 6206 lbs.

2016 Land Cruiser:
- GVWR: 7,385 lbs (identical to LX)
- Curb Weight: As tested by C&D, the '16 LC was only 5926 lbs, 280 lbs lighter!

Before all else you're only looking at ~1100 lbs of cargo capacity on the LX versus ~1450 on the Toyota. Also remember 7k towing vs 8500 lbs.

Assuming you're looking at adding a conservative +50 lbs for 33" tires versus stock, ~100+ for a front bumper, +50 for a winch, +250 for a rear bumper, +100 for sliders - even before a RTT you have already soaked up 50% of your remaining GVWR, and that's without the driver!

I know a lot of folks regularly run around in these trucks with weights far beyond the GVWR, but being able to modify the shocks and springs would greatly ease your ability to carry that much weight + passengers - safely - and allow you to manage it responsibly versus overloading OEM components you can't modify as-of yet. My $0.02!
 
I guess what I'm wondering is that every adjustable airbag suspension I've seen has been the same, but I don't have experience with the LX570 so the reason I'm wondering about shock length is this:

Shock are supposed to be tailored to their neighboring ride height. If you put a taller coil in and can ensure that you can get more down travel, you make sure your shock can extend enough for the ride height.

Think if you put in a taller coil, your truck ride higher now, but you keep the stock shock, with its shock compression and extension lengths.

Here my complain with these systems. When they lift themselves into the higherest ride higher position, the shock only has a couple more inches of travel before reaching it extension limit.

Now here is my problem, when at full height, off road, you hit little bumps and things, and the shock doesn't have the extension travel to go much further. So with small bounces up and down, the bounce up is followed by an unruly and annoying shock slamming its limit.

It makes it to where the highest setting is unable to be used at higher off road speed. Probably why it lowers itself at 29 mph.

One of my friends '14 grand Cherokee has the air suspension, and the highest height was unbearable to actually drive off road because of constant slamming of a limited shock.

Is the LX like that? I don't know, I've never drive one off-road, this is just a concern I have, and haven't been able to find out yet.

Other LX guys are welcome to jump in here but I do think it's that way as far as ride at all. It feels exactly the same in my opinions honestly.

I come from a Tacoma with an ome suspension, this suspension seems every bit as capable as that one to me. If I were rock crawling obviously this is not the system for that. Trail riding here in GA, seems to work just fine to me.
 
I have been haunted by this debate LX vs LC. I personally have wanted to buy an LX and live with it for 6 months to settle this. When I first started looking at 200s I wanted an LX, all my neighbors have them - I even find them to be more attractive than the LC which is too discreet. I wanted soo badly to love the LX but the AHC suspension felt too bumpy with 18, 20, 21 wheels (I test drove more than 6 LX's trying to decide). I even took my LC to the Lexus dealer before purchasing it and parked them next to each other. I think that was the moment I came to my final conclusion that it was harder for me to park the LX over the LC due to AHC. It felt soo much more of a chore to reverse out of tight spots. Everything else about the LX was better: leather, tech, options, colors but I didn't think I could live with AHC again (had it on my 100 before upgrading to Slee OME). It wasn't as sharp handling as the LC, maybe at high speeds it can be with how it handles weight distribution but not at regular or low speeds (KDSS is a big improvement from 100). I love the concept of a hydraulic suspension and fully believe it lasts 200k miles on the 200. It just wasn't as comfortable, I am still debating whether with bigger tires if it would solve the annoying bump of the suspension going up and down constantly.
 
This has been a good discussion all around for understanding and awareness between the two platforms. Having been on the boards for a long time, since the 100-series days, there's general misconception and mistrust about AHC, especially those that have not used the capability. It's been the same progression for the LX470 and it's taken work in the earlier years from my part and others to bring that community around. Now you see tons of LX470 owners who eagerly modify and augment their AHC suspension for various applications, not unlike one would do with the LC. Then there's those that ripped out their AHC, only to then finally understand what they gave up!

I'll be the first to acknowledge that AHC is not for everyone. But at the same time, that's usually the exception for the extreme users. Plenty of hardcore users now take advantage of AHC for the LX470.

The biggest benefit of AHC is its dynamic adaptability for a multitude of scenarios. Static suspensions are generally optimized for specific use cases. Sure you can adjust coilovers, but not on the fly. If ICON, for example, offered a dynamically adjustable (height, spring rate, and damping), remote reservoir coilover, that went 200k+ miles between rebuilds, I think that surely would catch peoples attention. Not only does it exist, but Toyota has engineered it right into the LX570. Because no aftermarket vendor has the technical chops (not overstating this) to build something as sophisticated.
 
Both are incredibly capable in stock form. Amazingly so.
This discussion could give the impression it's a huge problem...but I don't think it is--especially for those keeping their rigs mostly stock.

For modding though...

I feel like there are "Three Basics" that truly launch the platform beyond stock form:
Sliders, suspension and tires the "Three Basics"
For me, the fact that 2 of the 3 "basics" are difficult on the LX (sliders) to impossible (suspension...at least no one has done it that I know of)...it's an LX deal killer. Again...for ME. Others absolutely LOVE the LX, and Ouray was a walk in the park for Slee's LX/35's.

Both are amazing.
 
I know a lot of folks regularly run around in these trucks with weights far beyond the GVWR, but being able to modify the shocks and springs would greatly ease your ability to carry that much weight + passengers - safely - and allow you to manage it responsibly versus overloading OEM components you can't modify as-of yet. My $0.02!

Absolutely and cannot agree more.

Carrying capacity is generally the GVWR - curb weight. And in the case of stock, the LC200, with a lighter curb weight, certainly has the advantage.

With full armor (let alone loaded for vacation), both platforms would be beyond their factory capacities. An LC owner would be ill advised not to modify their suspension, for capacity, but also as they'll be slammed at least 2" below stock ride height losing whatever ground clearance they thought they had. Versus stock AHC, that at least would maintain factory ground clearance. AHC absolutely can and should be augmented for more carrying capacity too, and has been done for a long time on the LX470. With AHC specific higher rate springs or preload spacers. And the dampening automatically increases to compensate for the additional load.
 
I feel like there are "Three Basics" that truly launch the platform beyond stock form:
Sliders, suspension and tires the "Three Basics"
For me, the fact that 2 of the 3 "basics" are difficult on the LX (sliders) to impossible (suspension...at least no one has done it that I know of)...it's an LX deal killer. Again...for ME. Others absolutely LOVE the LX, and Ouray was a walk in the park for Slee's LX/35's.

In no way knocking what's good for you, and I think you are perfectly served by the LC.

But just want to be clear, AHC absolutely can be modified, and has been done so. Not by ripping it out, but modify by augmenting to handle more load and/or lift. It's already been done, and the strategies are clear, cheap, and rather easy.
 
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In no way knocking what's good for you, and I think you are perfectly served by the LC.

But just want to be clear, AHC absolutely can be modified, and has been done so. Not by ripping it out, but modify by augmenting to handle more load and/or lift. It's already been done, and the strategies are clear, cheap, and rather easy.

Maybe you can point to some of those builds. It would be helpful and interesting to see what you're referring to, and what their goals were. I'd imagine some LX owners would also be interested.
 
I guess what I'm wondering is that every adjustable airbag suspension I've seen has been the same, but I don't have experience with the LX570 so the reason I'm wondering about shock length is this:

Shock are supposed to be tailored to their neighboring ride height. If you put a taller coil in and can ensure that you can get more down travel, you make sure your shock can extend enough for the ride height.

Think if you put in a taller coil, your truck ride higher now, but you keep the stock shock, with its shock compression and extension lengths.

Here my complain with these systems. When they lift themselves into the higherest ride higher position, the shock only has a couple more inches of travel before reaching it extension limit.

Now here is my problem, when at full height, off road, you hit little bumps and things, and the shock doesn't have the extension travel to go much further. So with small bounces up and down, the bounce up is followed by an unruly and annoying shock slamming its limit.

It makes it to where the highest setting is unable to be used at higher off road speed. Probably why it lowers itself at 29 mph.

One of my friends '14 grand Cherokee has the air suspension, and the highest height was unbearable to actually drive off road because of constant slamming of a limited shock.

Is the LX like that? I don't know, I've never drive one off-road, this is just a concern I have, and haven't been able to find out yet.

It's useful to understand that AHC architecturally is not an airbag suspension system, but a hydraulic based system with remote dampening and spring (suspension) globes. With the front having multiple globes to implement multiple spring rates, to handle aggressive cornering or braking. Each wheel is also intertwined and linked in a fashion that allows for body control (aka posture control), in a way that no independent damper based system will mimic.

In regards to compression and extension lengths - it's the same travel as the LC, with the same droop and compression capacities depending on ride height. If an LC is modified with extended length shocks and long travel control arms, it can have the advantage for things like baja running where travel is king. To your point about lacking droop or compression travel, the great things about AHC is that you don't have to choose a compromise. Dynamic height selection allows one to choose max height for traversing obstacles, or a height that allows for good handling. Also, a high static lift is NOT a good height for high speed handling as suspension geometries in that range are... sloppy.
 

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