GROUP BUY - MMP Ceramic Ball Bearing Turbo (1 Viewer)

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So I'm not a turbo wizard but I don't alter compressor maps. If you extrapolate higher rpms you will be getting into overspeed and g forces that are byond the design capabilities. That's my take on it. If it is indeed a gen 2 71mm I'd still recommend a gen 2 or 3 76mm as it just has a better map overall. Regardless....Moving away from an 11 blade, with surge concerns and high boost inefficiencies, and over to a 7+7 would be much better suited to what you want. It makes the surge line more verticle and moves it to the left which much safer and improves high boost effeciency.

So now all this being said....longevity with this kind of boost really calls into question its ability to handle thrust load. Your asking for dragster performance with road train strength. It's one thing to compare compressors and how pretty they are, but I'm personally more concerned with keeping it alive longer than the set of tires your running. Be nice to get hard data on the bearing size and how overbuilt it is. I wouldn't be taking "can handle this load", but more like that it's twice or three times as strong as it needs to be.
 
I'm no turbo wizard either @gerg. I have stated that I don't really know the answer and that I can ask a question if need be. I have then stated the assumptions and methods I used to get the answer I gave.
Luke told me the issue with going over that shaft speed was baring wear related, not the compressor itself. I have no knowledge of the compressor design other than what I have stated.
I don't believe it is an actual gen2 GTX 71 wheel, but the design was based off of it.

I will ask why he went with the 71 over the 76. I'm guessing its the extra mass and low drive energy response but I will ask.

I understand you are not a fan of the ball bearings, but as I'm sure your aware, ball bearings can be very good at dealing with thrust loadings. As I understand it even a journal turbo (with thrust bushes) will wear with excessive thrust loads.
What I want IS dragster performance (every now and then) with road train strength. Isn't that what we would all want?
Can you recommend another turbo that can deliver these qualities? or at least compare?

While I would love this turbo to last for 1 million kilometers, I'm sure it wont. I do expect it to last longer than a set of tires.
To put this into perspective, the super reliable journal turbo that Toyota supplied on my vehicle is known to fail some time after 300k kms. Sooner or later they seem to wear out. This is 300k at max 10.5psi boost that only really comes in at 1600-1800rpm. My desires for this turbo are much different. If that means the bearings will be worn out by 200k klms (I'm not saying they will be) then I can (potentially) rebuild it and away I go again.
I do hear your concerns and thank you for voicing them. I guess its a measured risk that at this stage I'm willing to take.
 
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We all make our own decisions and his dyno looks impressive. However, Compressor maps are independent of the turbine or bearings or the seat you sit on or any other superlative data. They are specific to that compressor. The larger your exducer the lower your Max rpms as a guide. You can put that compressor on any turbo you want as long as it can be machined and made to work so in short his answer is, at best, incorrect. You heat up a metal and exert incredible forces on it byond it's design and it will deform and It will fail. I guess you can argue a better turbo all day long but you have one in front of you made just for your truck, but it is expensive. I don't like Borg Warner much, but it's what I'd be looking at.
 
Cheers @gerg.
To assume you know his answer is 'at best, incorrect' is assuming you know all the details involved. I don't assume that and I have been communicating with him a lot over the past couple of weeks. I feel this is a very pompous reply.
I'm not saying that there is no issues with the compressor at overspeed conditions. I have not asked Luke about it either, so his answer cannot be incorrect when he hasn't given one. What I"m saying is when I asked him (because I was asked this question) about how the turbo would perform with the gate wired shut. The response was more concerned on bearing wear rates more than compressor wheel integrity. No mater how you look at it, shaft overspeed it detrimental to any turbo.

Now to the chosen compressor wheel. Yes you can theoretically bolt any compressor wheel onto a shaft and expect it to spin. How fast it spins and how much energy it takes to spin it relies on how much energy it transferred to it via the turbine shaft. I'm sure you are aware of that and the fact that compressor wheels and turbine wheels are generally matched to perform with each others strength in mind. A larger compressor wheel can deliver more boost once it is spinning fat enough but getting it spinning takes more energy. This will translate to potentially higher rpms required before any boost.
I have to go for now, I will have a look at the wheel you posted and get back to you. Thanks for the recommendation. What turbine would you recommend to run this with?
 
Hi Guys,

I'm Luke the owner of MMP Turbos, just to give a little clarity regarding the compressor wheel and shaft speed questions. The compressor wheel is based on a GTX 71 mm wheel, but there are many changes that we do to them to improve in area's that are usually un-noticeable to the untrained eye. The 71mm wheel is a better fit for this application as the rotational mass increase with a 76mm wheel adds a lagg dependency. Yes the bigger wheel will make more power but the spool rate is more important. If people want to make more power then there is a sacrifice and is spool speed.

If you want @gerg I can built you a compound setup that will achieve all of your requirements

As with all turbos shaft speed is a killer, to over spin any turbo you cause excessive wear and this leads to a reduced life expectancy of the assembly.
 
@MMPTurbos
welcome to mud Luke.
There are lots of guys here genuinely keen for an alternative turbo upgrade.
At the moment, the viable options are
GTurbo
UFI
Mambatek/ Kinugawa
Or build your own

There's quite a few guys with some really solid knowledge on this stuff, and genuinely interested in understanding your offering.

It would be great to have some technical discussion for all involved


Damn auto edit!
 
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@mudgudgeon

Thanks for the warm welcome. I am happy to give a general information regarding any of our products but please be aware I will not devouge any intellectual property as this is where all our magic and edge is.
 
Welcome to mud Luke. Nice to see another vendor on the scene. Thanks for the offer on the compounds, but I'm good. It's not the matching up that's the problem, but just fitting it in the engine bay that's the challenge for me. Bearing wear would be the least of my concerns with overspeeding a compressor at such high pressure ratios but that's just me. Pompous I am not. Cautious I am. Do as you wish with your turbo. I'd would be interested in what the maximum shaft speed of a BB assembly is if wear accellerates so dramatically from 150k to 165k rpm. How much to replace the bearing assembly? If the 76 slows you down enough to run dirty on accelleration then it makes sence that what looks good on paper doesn't work well in real life.
Cheers
g
 
I didn't mean to insult you @gerg but that's how I read such a broad comment. After lurking on this forum for many years I am aware of (at least some of) your knowledge and experience on turbos, and I thank you for sharing some of it with us all.

Edit - I would like to thank everyone for sharing, It can only improve everyone's knowledge base and understanding. Both on this thread and others. I have personally learned a heap off of this forum alone!

Looking at the compressor map you have provided it does seem similar apart from the surge line being pushed to the left and an increase in PR ability. From what I understand this is also a 7+7 wheel. Is this the difference you would expect to see?
I wonder how similar the new wheel would look.

Do you have a recommendation for turbine design and size that would work with the above wheel?
Also what makes you say you don't like Borg Warner?
 
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No worries. It's tuff to communicate without body language. BW have experienced turbine failures and didn't back their warrenty. They say they corrected the turbine issue yet didn't warrenty a turbine failure from an issue? It was a new generation super ceramic combo turbine that has awsome performance characteristics but catistrophicaly failed. So bad warrenty is one thing. Turbines exploding is a whole other deal. Without really knowing how to build a BW turbo I'd go for the 63mm OD turbine with the s200 super core but I'm not sure if they are compatable. It would take many emails to confirm it otherwise you could go for the 71mm off the shelf which I think is too big. There always is buying lots of parts and seeing what fits and wasting money. That's lots of fun. I have an affinity for twin scrolls so I'd be going .8ar divided. I've thought for quite a while about building a turbo for the 1hdt guys but have no time to do it. So that is a lot of talk with nothing to back it so don't quote me.
 
diby 2000 said:
Edit - I would like to thank everyone for sharing, It can only improve everyone's knowledge base and understanding. Both on this thread and others. I have personally learned a heap off of this forum alone!
Click to expand...

totally agree.

I think guys like Luke can potentially add a lot to technical discussions on here which not only benefits their potentially customers through better understanding of the products available, it also potentially improves the products available in the market place.

GTurbo is a good example of this. Graeme was previously very active in discussion and, and the GTurbo product is I believe born directly from technical discussion here on mud. XXI is another example of this.

5years ago, there was virtually no performance products available for these engines, and even finding info on tuning was difficult.

Graeme was previously very responsive and informative in discussions about his product which I believe contributed to how quickly his product was accepted.
On the other hand XXI was rude and arrogant on forums and turned people off.


@MMPTurbos I think guys like yourself can potentially add to a general understanding of the technology used in your product, and the logic and reasoning behind what you've put together without giving up your IP. I for one enjoy reading the discussion a thread like this one generates.

For me, I think I have a reasonable understanding of what makes a turbo diesel perform, and I like to understand it more. but bring compressor maps into it, and you're talking black magic and clay voodoo dolls! :confused:
:(
 
Yeah I remember reading that. A bit of a double standard from them. From what I have heard the turbine separation was actually due to overspeed in most cases. This is just what I heard, don't quote me either lol.

Thanks for the feedback. Like you have said this can be a long and costly process. It seems from my initial looking that the S200 core only comes with the larger turbine. Maybe more custom mix and match is possible, I have no idea.

I also like the idea of twin scroll, and ball bearings with no drawbacks. These are all improvements over what is currently on offer as far as I can see.

Now that I have said all that, I am in the market for a turbo now. I would like to have the time and money to test lots of different things, not just turbo configuration, the fact is I'm time and money poor, just like most people. This MMP unit fits my requirements and is already tested on proven for my application.
I can't wait to get it on and begin enjoying it!
 
Having a unit that has a dyno attached to it and is plug and play is no small thing. I certainly understand that. The BW turbine failure is a bad deal even if the guys did overspeed it. I mean how common is it that you see 100$ Chinese turbines structurally fail. Cheap turbos fail, don't get me wrong, bad bearings and such, but to have all the blades separate off of the turbine shaft is not a normal deal.
 
SubaruBoy said:
Will this turbo run with out surge with on a 1hz with 1hdt exhaust and standard intake. ( 100 Series intake set up)
with out intercooler to start the ball rolling.
Cheers Tim
Click to expand...
I believe it will work just as well on a 1HZ as it does on a 1HD-T. I will clarify with Luke.
I have been told that surge is not a concern with this turbo, even at altitude.
 
There u go it's not exactly a standard gtx 71 compressor . Mmp turbos has obviously tested both the standard 71 and 76mm wheel and gone with his own to get the desired result.

To be fair to any vendor, remember rnd takes lots of time and lots of money so you can't expect them to "tell all" .

I myself have had better luck using the 76mm wheel over the 71mm but my tested combo was totally different to the Mmp turbo and was aimed at higher top end power, as it turned out I always had better mid range too .

Sometimes you just have to make the decision for yourself and go for it . Gturbo were once unknown too .
 
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