Igniter Repair for Cheapskates (1 Viewer)

[Lugal]

Help. Me.

I'm away from my truck this week, but will try and take a look at it on Sunday or Monday so we can compare notes. Sorry that I'm no more help than that, but I'm pretty new to this particular problem, myself, and don't yet fully understand how it all works together.

Didn't use one when I did the conversion on my old Plymouth, but the modules kept dying within days of installing. So after troubleshooting and doing some digging around, I found out that they do not like anything less than 12VDC in continuous use. Added a relay to the circuit and the one I added the relay to never went out on me.

This has me a little worried about the longevity of my new igniter. Where did you install that relay?

 

[Spook50]

This has me a little worried about the longevity of my new igniter. Where did you install that relay?

Honestly, for our rigs I wouldn't worry. Putting one in (just used the IGN+ lead that would normally go to the module & coil to trigger a fused direct connection to the battery from the module/coil) certainly isn't going to hurt anything, but may be a waste of time. My Plymouth had nearly 40 year-old 16awg (might've actually been 18. Can't remember for sure) with a ton of resistance in it and poor connections that resulted in low voltage and probably only a fraction of the needed current getting to the coil and module. You can always use a multimeter to check the voltage at the IGN+ connections of the igniter and coil, and if it's below what's indicated at the battery when the engine is running, you've got reason to install a relay.

 

[freepowder]

I'm away from my truck this week, but will try and take a look at it on Sunday or Monday so we can compare notes. Sorry that I'm no more help than that, but I'm pretty new to this particular problem, myself, and don't yet fully understand how it all works together.

I gave up. Went to the junkyard today to find they had 3 FJ60s. None of them now have any coil/ignitors as I bought the lot for $240.The frist one I tried truck tried to fire, adjusted the timing a bit (I'd replaced the dizzy with a JimC) and it fired right up. I'm going to check the other two and if they work, toss one in the spares bag and speculate with the other--it ain't gonna lose value.

Meanwhile, I've stilll got the GM conversion and I'd really like to know why that didn't work.

Thanks

 

[Spook50]

Years ago MISF & I did a dwell angle test on a OE GM module (in his mom's Hurst-Olds) and an aftermarket performance module ("Dynamod" or similar name; in his '69 Gran Prix). Both had 45° dwell at idle. By about 3500 RPM or so the OE module's dwell had fallen off to around 36° while the perf. module still had 45°. For an SBC that might matter. Doubt that it does for any of the F engines.

Any idea what the 60/62 igniter is set for? I'm just curious as to what exactly is different between the OEM igniter, the D.U.I. igniter, and a GM 4-pin module. I was under the impression that the only thing different about the D.U.I. igniter was what the dwell angle was set to.

I gave up. Went to the junkyard today to find they had 3 FJ60s. None of them now have any coil/ignitors as I bought the lot for $240.The frist one I tried truck tried to fire, adjusted the timing a bit (I'd replaced the dizzy with a JimC) and it fired right up. I'm going to check the other two and if they work, toss one in the spares bag and speculate with the other--it ain't gonna lose value.

Meanwhile, I've stilll got the GM conversion and I'd really like to know why that didn't work.

Thanks

Did you try messing with the tach wire? I assume all your connection locations were correct, and it looks like all the necessary voltages were good. There is a chance you could've gotten a bum module. Depending on where you got it, it's a consideration.

 

[Lugal]

Honestly, for our rigs I wouldn't worry. Putting one in (just used the IGN+ lead that would normally go to the module & coil to trigger a fused direct connection to the battery from the module/coil) certainly isn't going to hurt anything, but may be a waste of time. My Plymouth had nearly 40 year-old 16awg (might've actually been 18. Can't remember for sure) with a ton of resistance in it and poor connections that resulted in low voltage and probably only a fraction of the needed current getting to the coil and module. You can always use a multimeter to check the voltage at the IGN+ connections of the igniter and coil, and if it's below what's indicated at the battery when the engine is running, you've got reason to install a relay.

That makes sense. Thanks for the info. Mine gets battery voltage at the ignition wire, so I guess I'll go back to not worrying.

 

[freepowder]

I messed with all the wires. Not sure which one the tach wire is but I think it's the yellow one? Disconnected it and still no joy.
I tried two GM modules, no joy and not likely both them are bad. Any idea how to test one to see if it's bad other than it doesn't uh, ignite?
I'm going to hang on to the GM module/Toy coil assembly and try a Vulcan mind-meld with it in hopes of finding out its secrets.

 

[Spook50]

I messed with all the wires. Not sure which one the tach wire is but I think it's the yellow one? Disconnected it and still no joy.
I tried two GM modules, no joy and not likely both them are bad. Any idea how to test one to see if it's bad other than it doesn't uh, ignite?
I'm going to hang on to the GM module/Toy coil assembly and try a Vulcan mind-meld with it in hopes of finding out its secrets.

Probably a redundant question, but did you make sure you have a good ground connection to the "W" terminal (screw hole) and the back plate? Here's a pic showing how it's supposed to be wired. The "B" terminal is where the IGN switched lead needs to connect (connects to both this and the coil's positive lead).

If you're using an aftermarket coil, it's possible your wiring isn't delivering enough current to power both the module and coil. Just a shot in the dark there.

 

[freepowder]

Probably a redundant question, but did you make sure you have a good ground connection to the "W" terminal and the back plate? Here's a pic showing how it's supposed to be wired. The "B" terminal is where the IGN switched lead needs to connect (connects to both this and the coil's positive lead).

View attachment 888984

If you're using an aftermarket coil, it's possible your wiring isn't delivering enough current to power both the module and coil. Just a shot in the dark there.

Yes.
Grounded via the mounting screw to the old igniter case with an additional wire to a bolt through the body. All grounds showed 0 ohms.

 

[Benjaman]

Have you check the primary resistance on the coil? It should be .5 ohms for a GM ignitor.

I messed with all the wires. Not sure which one the tach wire is but I think it's the yellow one? Disconnected it and still no joy.
I tried two GM modules, no joy and not likely both them are bad. Any idea how to test one to see if it's bad other than it doesn't uh, ignite?
I'm going to hang on to the GM module/Toy coil assembly and try a Vulcan mind-meld with it in hopes of finding out its secrets.

 

[freepowder]

Have you check the primary resistance on the coil? It should be .5 ohms for a GM ignitor.

Yep. On all three of the coils I tried.

 

[Spook50]

If you're feeling gutsy you could build your own ignition box

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/digital.htm

 

[freepowder]

Yep. On all three of the coils I tried.

Pass.

I might if the guy was still supporting it.
I've already spent two weeks trying to get a non-stock mod to work without positive results and at an expense of near $100.
I'm just not gutsy enough. Or I'm cheap. Maybe both.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

nice link. may have to try this...

 

[Spook50]

I'm honestly very curious to. Lots of projects to finish before I can play around with something like this though.

Correction on my posts concerning the relay for HEI modules: It isn't low voltage that makes them die prematurely; it's lack of sufficient current. I really wish I had put an ammeter on my Plymouth's to find out for sure, but most references I've seen they pull about 4A when running and can pull up to 20A during starting. That said, it might still be worth using a relay if you use an HEI module in your Cruiser. Our old wiring can be the source of a lot of resistance in the circuit. Case in point: the power windows and door locks in our 62s.

 

[onemanarmy]

I'll pop this back up, as I've been debating going this route.

However, I'm having issues with my 1977 2F, which has points and an external resistor.

Anyone done this mod to a points 2F?

Thanks

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

I THINK the semi electronic dizzy won't work with the gm module mod...but I could be wrong. the 77 dizzy is a vacuum retard/vacuum advance dizzy with a semi-electronic points driven ignition. that diz can run via points and the addition of a condenser w/o the ignitor in place. The points have to be good, tho, and gapped right. A non US vac advance diz in either points or electronic is a better diz, but the ability to bypass the module with the semi elec diz is pretty cool...HTH

 

[onemanarmy]

That's what I was leaning towards. I've been told that it will run without the igniter, but that has not been what I've seen. Tried to run without the ignitor and resistor with the stock coil and with a new aftermarket coil with no luck. It runs great with a borrowed working setup from another rig. Distributor and points work fine.

 

[Lugal]

Late update on my cheapo igniter repair.

My truck had begun running rough after about an hour of driving--misfiring, backfiring, barely staying alive, etc. Every time it did this, though, it would be fine again after cooling back down for a bit. After ruling out vacuum leaks, I figured that the igniter was overheating. In testing this, I managed to kill my igniter. That's fine, I figured, I'll just have to get another $15 GM HEI four pin igniter and put a regular heat sink on it. Clearly the aluminum case from the OE igniter wasn't enough, and a better heat sink should solve the problem.

In looking for a good heat sink, I came across the following:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012P2EQU

I had to drill out the mounting holes so that the igniter would sit on it flush, without hitting the innermost cooling fin, but that was pretty easy.

Installed in the truck, the new igniter with the new heat sink now looks like this:

I haven't had the chance to drive it long enough to see if it gives me the same problem with overheating, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Output Shaft]

Please keep us posted with its long term function. That's great news. Thanks much for the update.

 

[Spook50]

Well that's a pretty interesting find. Has it run well otherwise, with the GM module? I'm very curious to find out if there are any differences (performance, economy, smoothness when running, etc) between any of the performance (or even OEM spec) GM HEI modules and an OEM Toyota igniter.