2FE Build Suggestions (1 Viewer)

[BDSeff1fitty]

I'll go ahead and say, this is my first engine build, I have been reading a lot on here trying to learn as much as I can but still have questions.

Just found a machine shop to do my work on the engine and before I go to drop it off I would like a critique/suggestions on what I should have done and what I should not have done before I walk in there.

My 40 is mainly a trail rig so I'm planning on focusing this build around that.
It will stay below 3k rpm 99% of the time
Want high torque at low rpm
93 octane is fine, doesn't get driven enough for it to be a problem

For the Block:
.040 or .060 pistons? .060 is max from what i've read, but is it worth it? or just stick with .02 or .04 (assuming it can machined to those 2 sizes)
Crank needs to be cleaned up
Lifters resurfaced
Balance Piston, Rods, and Crank.
Camshaft: delta 262 degree cam

For the Head:
SBC valves or stock toyota's? Seems the SBC bump compression and flow better

SEV-3091 and SEV-2809+100 valves from here: http://www.rpmrons.com/SIvalvesclaimer.html

Pull .1 off the head.
Port and Polish, it's crossed my mind, but is it beneficial on a tractor motor?

Anything suggestions/recommendations are greatly appreciated.

 

[RockDoc]

Are you wanting to do all the work you can yourself and just send the machining to the shop, or to pay a shop to do everything? A basic "clean it up only as much as needed" or "build it as strong as you can"? I put a lot of work into mine myself - "port and polish", coatings, balancing.... and am now helping with one that is going together as bolt up of stock parts.

I would wait on deciding on overbore till the tear down tells you what shape the block is in. When I built mine I just broke the glaze with a cheap hone and re-ringed the original pistons since the cylinders were in pretty good shape and I was cheap. What size of pistons are available may dictate your overbore (although I think this is more an issue with the earlier domed pistons than the FJ60 era flat-tops you need to work with the 3FE head).

I would think higher than 3K for your useful rev range. The 3FE (and 2FE) in my experience really come on @ 2500 and are strong well past 3500 (I've taken both to redline @ 4500 now I believe, hard to keep an eye on the tach on icy hill climbs). The 262 duration Delta cam is popular, that's what I have in my 2FE. It is strong at all revs seen with an auto behind it, but you should get the opinion of someone who runs one with a manual on whether it pulls strong at low rpm. It lopes a bit at idle.... You should decide on your cam and compression ratio as a pair since they play off of each other. I bumped my compression along with the cam and run fine on regular (details are in the turd polishing thread linked in my sig. line). You need to run 2F lifters, either matched to the lobes of the cam they were paired with, or resurfaced to match a reground cam. You can use the 3FE cam with 2F lifter if reground, but 3FE lifters won't work in the 2F block.

Balancing the rods and crank make for a nice smooth engine that pulls rpm with ease. I balanced my rods myself, and had a shop do the crank when they installed the valves in my head. Pistons and pins were very close already so they didn't get any attention. I used the SBC valves per JimC's recommendation, they let you clean up the valve guide and seat without the need to put in new ones. Make sure you get the valves that match length taken out of the head. The 3FE has a longer exhaust valve... the 2F doesn't.

Porting work - if you want to use the upper revs, and are willing to do it yourself go for it. Not sure how much benefit it would bring at lower revs and would cost an arm and a leg to pay someone else to do. When I built mine I thought the stock match ups were pretty good. I've heard 0.100" as the max shave for a F-family engine, but a bit of digging should get you the value from a more experienced source.

HTH

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

Thanks for replying, I was going to shoot you a PM with this thread later any ways if it didn't get your attention.

Answers are in red

Are you wanting to do all the work you can yourself and just send the machining to the shop, or to pay a shop to do everything? A basic "clean it up only as much as needed" or "build it as strong as you can"?
Farming out machine work, putting together myself. I'm wanting to pick up low end torque mainly

I would wait on deciding on overbore till the tear down tells you what shape the block is in. When I built mine I just broke the glaze with a cheap hone and re-ringed the original pistons since the cylinders were in pretty good shape and I was cheap. What size of pistons are available may dictate your overbore (although I think this is more an issue with the earlier domed pistons than the FJ60 era flat-tops you need to work with the 3FE head).
Blocks torn down and cylinder walls look good, but either way i'm having to change pistons. Of course I won't know for sure until a machine shop has it, just curious to what I should choose should I have the option

You should decide on your cam and compression ratio as a pair since they play off of each other. I bumped my compression along with the cam and run fine on regular (details are in the turd polishing thread linked in my sig. line). You need to run 2F lifters, either matched to the lobes of the cam they were paired with, or resurfaced to match a reground cam. You can use the 3FE cam with 2F lifter if reground, but 3FE lifters won't work in the 2F block.
Could you explain a little more what you mean by matching the cam with the lifters

I used the SBC valves per JimC's recommendation, they let you clean up the valve guide and seat without the need to put in new ones. Make sure you get the valves that match length taken out of the head. The 3FE has a longer exhaust valve... the 2F doesn't.
You don't have part numbers for the valves, springs, etc I need for the SBC parts do you?

Porting work - if you want to use the upper revs, and are willing to do it yourself go for it. Not sure how much benefit it would bring at lower revs and would cost an arm and a leg to pay someone else to do. When I built mine I thought the stock match ups were pretty good. I've heard 0.100" as the max shave for a F-family engine, but a bit of digging should get you the value from a more experienced source.
.1 is what I have found as well for a 2F, haven't run across what the max for a 3FE is yet. I'll keep digging

HTH

 

[RockDoc]

The cam and lifters break in to each other. So if you move the lifters from one lobe to another, they will need to break in again (and may lead to ongoing wear?). The 3FE lifters are shorter and a different shape than the 2F lifters, so you need to re-use the 2F ones anyway. Options would be to re-use 2F cam and lifters as is (keeping lifters in proper order) or have the 2F lifters resurfaced along with regrinding either camshaft.

I believe you want SEV-3091 and SEV-2809+100 valves from here: http://www.rpmrons.com/SIvalvesclaimer.html (or equivalent from another source). I neglected to notice that the 3FE exhaust valves were longer and got the SEV-2809 valves..... but they work with the 2F rocker assembly, so that's what I went with. For springs and such I just let the shop figure it out. It was all common chevy stuff. There are common ford seals that match the diameter of these valve stems and the outside diameter of the valve guides.

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

Bumped, altered up the first post slightly for changes or decisions made.

 

[RockDoc]

The 0.100" maximum shave for the head is what you can safely do without compromising the structure of the head. The actual amount you shave will be less to meet your desired compression ratio. If you stick with a stock cam and want to run regular you may not be shaving at all, as the longer stroke of the 2F already bumps compression some.....

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

I don't mind 93 octane, I drive this thing maybe 1250 miles a year so the extra spike in gas isn't going to kill me.

 

[tat2matt]

.40 over is as big as you can go. There is NO .60 even though there were pistons that size at one time there are no more. I went thru this same thing with my build and ended up taking my original block that had been bored out to .40 previously and sleeved it and went back to stock. Before you have the machine shop bore it make absolutely sure that you can get the pistons you want. just my.02 and avoid felpro if you can although good for some applications in my experience OEM isn't that much more and they make better gaskets for what you are doing. Good Luck

 

[RockDoc]

As a point of reference I just checked on what I had done as far as shaving the head. I asked the shop to give me a chamber volume of 75cc. I run fine on regular gas, with 2 occasions when a bad tank of gas has given me some rattle. I have a slightly longer duration cam (262 vs. 250 for stock), which means a stock cam would be slightly more prone to detonation on regular. But if you are good with running higher octane.....

 

[Mark W]

I have had nothing but good experience with Felpro gaskets for the last 30+ years.

I would rethink your expectation of not taking the engine over 3000 rpm. Even factory stock, peak hp is at 3400-3600 and it will pull happily to 4000 The only way to keep it under 3000 will be to drive it very gingerly, not even using full throttle. And there is really no point in doing any performance enhancements if you will be using the rig in such a way as to keep the rpm that low. You are attempting to add power when you are deciding to not use what you already have.


You might as well put a 22r under the hood.


Mark...

 

[willflow]

Rock auto sales felpro gaskets cheap!

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

I have had nothing but good experience with Felpro gaskets for the last 30+ years.

I would rethink your expectation of not taking the engine over 3000 rpm. Even factory stock, peak hp is at 3400-3600 and it will pull happily to 4000 The only way to keep it under 3000 will be to drive it very gingerly, not even using full throttle. And there is really no point in doing any performance enhancements if you will be using the rig in such a way as to keep the rpm that low. You are attempting to add power when you are deciding to not use what you already have.


You might as well put a 22r under the hood.


Mark...

When I say under 3000, it's mainly a wheeling rig where I rarely get on it hard to climb over things. I want to focus on putting as much torque down low as possible to match my driving style.

 

[Mark W]

If you want power, rather than trying to build it artificially low, let the engine spin where it wants to to make the best power and gear accordingly to suit your uses.


Mark...

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

If you want power, rather than trying to build it artificially low, let the engine spin where it wants to to make the best power and gear accordingly to suit your uses.


Mark...

I guess I didn't think of that, I was planning on swapping a SM420 in at the same time as this motor so my gearing should be ~116:1 in 1st and 56:1 in 2nd so I should keep my current low in 2nd gear and have my max low doubled so my RPM's should be jumping up a bit

So if I build more towards 3k RPM what do you recommend?

 

[Mark W]

The 'tried and true" approach with the 2F would be to move to a cam in the 260* range, bump the compression, open up the exhaust flow and increase the intake as well. In your case, the EFI will handle that last bit just fine with no questions about compromising the low end.

This will basically be the motor that Rockdoc is running so he can give you another opinion what he thinks of the results.

This will give you a motor that pulls strong right from idle, and just gets stronger all the way to 4500 or so. it really does not fall off the power until a good bit higher.

If you really really never expect to turn the rpms up, then maybe stick with one of the 255* cams. It will not gain you much lower down, but a little. It will sacrifice some powerband higher up, but if that is not important to you then, no big deal.

It's basically the same build that you are looking at except for maybe the cam choice, but instead of setting an artificially low target for your power band, it's just letting the engine make its power where it CAN make it and gearing to use the power where you want to use it.


No matter what motor and how it is set up, for real low speed crawling it is all about gears anyway. 116;is is far from stupid low, but it should be a great match for a 2F set up this way.

I have one '60 here with this motor (4bbl and offy instead of EFI) and 156;1 on 36s. It has handled most of the trails at moab without breaking a sweat. I ran a similar motor with 139:1 in a '40 and more power at lower speed was never a concern.


Mark...

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

If you really really never expect to turn the rpms up, then maybe stick with one of the 255* cams. It will not gain you much lower down, but a little. It will sacrifice some powerband higher up, but if that is not important to you then, no big deal.

It's basically the same build that you are looking at except for maybe the cam choice, but instead of setting an artificially low target for your power band, it's just letting the engine make its power where it CAN make it and gearing to use the power where you want to use it.


No matter what motor and how it is set up, for real low speed crawling it is all about gears anyway. 116;is is far from stupid low, but it should be a great match for a 2F set up this way.

I have one '60 here with this motor (4bbl and offy instead of EFI) and 156;1 on 36s. It has handled most of the trails at moab without breaking a sweat. I ran a similar motor with 139:1 in a '40 and more power at lower speed was never a concern.


Mark...

What you are saying is making a lot more sense, It hadn't crossed my mind about where my RPM's will be once I go lower in my gearing.


What are your thoughts on porting and polishing the heads and having the throttle body improved? Is it beneficial enough to do it, or should it just be skipped over?

 

[RockDoc]

Were I to do it again (and I might), I wouldn't bother with the TB overbore. It may help at high revs, but when first installed I found that the throttle lost finesse at low speed, a bit more on-and-off. I'd do the air flow work again, at least some of it, but I enjoyed the play value of that part of the build..... At a minimum I would recommend cleaning up the transition between the cast and machined portions of the valve pockets and the transition into the seat insert. (see posts 65-67 in the turd polish thread for an idea of what mine were like stock).

 

[Mark W]

I'm with Curtis on this one. the most I would worry about would be the transition areas. At the rpm ranges you are wanting to work in, and with the inherent limitations of these heads anyway, you will not see any noticeable gains from a lot of work on the ports. If you were wanting to take the engine to it's outerlitmis, then certainly do as much as you can for improvements here... every bit helps and it all adds up. But for a mild build, I would not spend the time/effort/money unless, like Curtis alluded to, you just want to see what can be accomplished and enjoy the new adventure aspect of it.

The slightly larger Chevy valves would be the most improvement you could do to the head that would be likely to provide any real increase for this type of build. But unless your head is in need of major rehabilitation anyway, I don't know that I would even do this. If it does in fact need a number of valves replace then this is the perfect time to jump into that too.


Mark...

 

[RockDoc]

Mark, I'm curious if you still have any plans to put together a 2FE? I recall you mentioned some time ago it was a project you were giving thought to. With your experience with hopped up carbed 2Fs (and V8s) I'd be interested to see how you think one compares.

 

[Mark W]

Plans? Absolutely! Hopes that it will happen soon? Not so much. Too many other things on my plate.

Right now when I look at my personal stuff that is waiting for the customers stuff to be taken care of, I have 4 '80s that need to be turned into trail rigs, and three '40s wondering when the 6.2s will be ready to go in. At least one of those is a turbodiesel approach too... axles to build, tow rig to rehab... the list is stupid long.

I want to have a tweaked 2FE in my blue '62 and *maybe* even to a mild turbo system on it. But it is way down the list these days.


This story just came to mind as I think of the '62 and we talk about modifications... The '62 has a 3f with a shaved head and a 262* cam and 2.5 inch exhaust. No emissions gear. stock except for that. 36 inch swampers and stock 4.11s still (4.8s on the shelf waiting to go in...)

Anyway, I was remembering an few minutes of the drive on the way to Ruby-con in 2010. I don't remember where exactly, but we were out on straight empty highway, late at night following one of the local guys in his stock FJ60 with 33x9.50s on it... the tires might have been even smaller than that.

For whatever reason we got to fooling around and the next thing you know we were side by side foot on the floor ... from about a 50-55mph rolling start, the tweaked 3F completely spanked the '60 and kept pulling strong up to some speeds i will not admit to here.

(Okay.... I will be the first to admit that a pair of lumbering 4x4 wagons was not exactly an adrenalin dumping drag race, but still it was fun.

I was at a big weight disadvantage (loaded for two weeks on the road, from AK, two people and two big dogs, roof rack, bumper, gear and tools and he was solo, out for a weekend. I had gearing disadvantage too. Rolling resistance and aerodynamic disadvantages on top of that.

All in all it is an apples to oranges comparison, but the deck was stacked against me except for the motor mods. I have always like the performance gains you can get out of the F series engines with some cam and compression improvements, but that was one of the most obvious demonstrations I had the chance to do. And one that has real world relevance when you consider passing, merging, any towing you might do climbing grades and other places that '60 series don't exactly shine at.


Mark...