3B Turbo Kits... Can we settle this? (1 Viewer)

[Diesel42]

Thanks for the great comments. When i started my research I read countless threads regarding turbos/setups which lead to ever confusion(more of a shotgun approach) with varying results. I wanted some math and science behind a system. Price was a factor but saving half the money(as Crushers points out) was worthless if the end result was a under performing setup that I would have to rebuild to my likings anyway. Therefore I enlisted the help of Dougal(our resident engineer) who digested the 3B's specs and mapped out the characteristics. It just so happened at the time that Garrett had designed a turbo that very closely matched. Then i got a Garrett engineer to do the same without sharing Dougals findings. They were identical and both chose the GT series 2052. Next, rather than flipping the manifolds or home making my own i chose the Toyota 13bt turbo manifold(why not). As i own a machine shop and we specialize in R&D, I designed a matching adapter to mate the two with flow characteristics in mind. Next was the oiling issue. Even the kits mentioned above pull oil from and direct it back through the alternator. Yet there were many complaints from the members about burning up there turbos or altenaters afterwards. Infact I recall Crushers mentioning this in a turbo thread. So i went to the garage and looked to see how Dodge did it on a Turbo'd Cummins. Full pressure from the block, unobstructed drain to the pan. So it was solved. Now should i go the the hardware store and buy a dozen fittings and elbows with pipe dope and teflon or do i go straight to a professional supplier that makes them(which in this case is a Nascar racing team). I have also sourced the special fittings metric/NPT/British that solve the crossthreading and leaking problems that others experienced. So i too had the same delimas as i spoke to all of the above makers, but i wasn't satisfied with any of them(as a complete bolt-on kit), especially for the money. It took alot of research and help from members(thanks Breckenridge) but i finally got what i felt was the highest quality system with some math and engineering behind it. Results have been overwhelming. Just like a few years back when Toyota discontinued the DIESEL badges, i designed and reproduced them for the members for half the price they were from Toyota(higher quality/half the price). I offered the turbo kit so that people didn't have to go through what i did. At $2,200.00, i'm WELL below the others for a much better system( my opinion only for the above listed reasons). It pays for the shop time, not a great deal of profit. Many guys have told me i should at least charge what the others do, truthfully i have gotten so much free help from people on this forum and still see so many go out of there way for others that i'm happy to contribute something. Good folks from around the globe. Steve at EBI crusiers is going to carry my system for his clients that want a complete turbo kit installed. I won't mention any names but i have been courted by two of the big names that want the system to offer. However, they both require my company to be an exclusive supplier. Which means i could no longer offer it. Obviously there price would be much higher. Nothing wrong with that, they're in business to my money and offer great products to their customers. There just isn't that many to be sold so why screw the few that are wanting them. Hey if Toyota wanted my kits and were buying 1000 at a time. then i would retire. We sell one kit per month average. Big deal so if i charged an extra $500.00 per kit(which some couldn't afford) i would still have to wake up and run my business anyway. So, there's my speech. I get dozens and dozens of emails so i should have done this long ago. Here's what it includes:
I offer the kit for $2,200.00. This includes a brand new Garrett GT series turbo, new Toyota 13bt turbo manifold, CNC machined matching adapter,hi-temp reinforced gasket set, custom drain flange w/gasket, stainless steel braided teflon lined oil lines all prepared to length w/ correct fittings, all necessary hardware for installation, and silicon intake hoses w/ SS t-bolts. Your welcome to call me for more info. We've provided over 30+ kits so far for 40's,42's,60's,70,setc.
Keith 530-547-4151PST

 

[crushers]

Keith,
i commend you for your efforts and forsight.
i will be contacting you in the future for a kit for my BJ70 ragtop to give it a test. i have no doubt that it will perform as expected.
I also applaud you for resisting the urge to sell out to the "man".

cheers

BTW, your post would be SOOO MUCH easier to read if you could break it up a bit.

 

[Capitalguy]

What people should consider as well is delivery time, and shipping costs. Before I found out about Keith's product, I was shopping around for a turbo for my truck and contacted the two in Australia, delivery time was in months unless I wanted to air freight it, which if I remember correctly would have been an additional $600, I received Keith's kit in about 3 weeks, and that time frame included the Christmas holidays.

 

[Dougal]

Anyone got a dyno plot for one of Keiths kits yet? Since I'm half a world away it's the only way I can really get a feel for how well they're working.

 

[ChrisB]

What people should consider as well is delivery time, and shipping costs. Before I found out about Keith's product, I was shopping around for a turbo for my truck and contacted the two in Australia, delivery time was in months unless I wanted to air freight it, which if I remember correctly would have been an additional $600, I received Keith's kit in about 3 weeks, and that time frame included the Christmas holidays.

You are correct. The prices I quoted at the start of this thread were including the 3-6month snail freight of appox $360 AUD. Seems like such a waste of money to me. I can get my rad rebuilt for less than that!

Anyone got a dyno plot for one of Keiths kits yet? Since I'm half a world away it's the only way I can really get a feel for how well they're working.

I would like to do a dyno on mine before and after. I will look into it and keep you posted.

 

[peteinjp]

Keith- we were in contact about a kit in the recent past as you may remember. I'm wondering what diameter exhaust is required/recommended for your kit to work well. I have a new stock system and if I were to use that would I be able to see some gains? Or would I be wasting my $$$ without upgrading the exhaust as well?

Pete

 

[Diesel42]

peteinjp
I don't recall anyone leaving the stock exhaust. Everyone, whether this kit or others, seem to use 2-1/2" with or without a muffler. Most probably don't use the muffler as the turbo actually quiets it down. Some guys are capable of doing there own exhaust for material only. Reports from the guys tell me their exhaust shops have charged between $150.00-$300.00 do do it. I went with 2-1/2" straight out the back w/no muffler. Quick spool, low egt's.

Dougal
Several guys have told me they intended on doing a before and after dyno but i have never heard back.I always was curious.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

Pete,

With the position of your turbo and your RHD components, you will need to at least build a new drop pipe to make sure the exhaust does not interfere or overheat your clutch MC , firewall, or brake booster/MC.

I can show you pictures of my setup for reference, though I am planning on modifying my turbo position a little bit when I rebuild my engine this winter. I am going to investigate flipping the 13BT manifold to position the turbo below. This is in conjunction with a change of air cleaner (therefore more room), but mostly to get the turbo and exhaust away from my MCs and to allow for a better exhaust dump pipe angle.

P.S. I have a 2.5" exhaust system with no muffler. It spools super fast. I intent to go to 2.75" or 3" when I rebuild to allow for better heat dissipation. I am not sure over 2.5" really adds power or changes the spool that much on this small a turbo, but it does help with spilling exhaust gas heat, which is very important here at hilly altitude.

HTH

 

[peteinjp]

Well my issues are altitude related. When I get to even 1000m(3300') even a slight, long grade will almost push me back down into 3rd with my 32" tires and lightly loaded truck.

The only thing holding me back is that unlike the U.S. I can't just go around the corner and find a place that can bend up an exhaust for me. I've never even seen an exhaust shop here. If I could find one I'd already have this going!

Pete

 

[mainlander]

Forget the exhaust shop, can you get straight pipe and elbows from some steel manufacturer? If you can than you can also have them fit and weld them up for you. Look at my signature line for a few pictures to get the idea of my exhaust. Mine is 2.5" SS and I just got short radius elbows for the turns, worked out great.

 

[FF LC FREAK]

Awesome info in this thread. When I save up enough $$$ for a turbo, I know which way I'm going.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

The Denco kit is not priced at $3092.53.

It is priced at $2513.79 CAD if I bring them in by pallet freight, and somewhat more if I bring them in via air freight.

The air freight price that we tend to quote is $2967.40, but it depends on how it gets shipped - the delivery time is about a week if it's coming in via air.

I keep a certain number of turbos in stock, but it's hard to keep very many as they are heavy to ship and expensive to have sitting in inventory as a relatively slow turn-over item. With fluctuations in the economy still producing some pretty strong up and down cycles in the business world, I tend to stock parts that turn over more frequently and order in the slower movers as I need them.

The Schwizer turbo is a very high quality unit that is considered a "first line" product. The housings are made custom by Denco for the application so that the AR is matched properly to the engine, boost levels, and rpm range. The 3B turbo is capable of making far more boost then the engine should have... but that is all about how you choose to tune it.

The differences in cost between the various suppliers has a lot to do with what's being offered in the kit as far as the small parts goes. Then the choice of the actual turbo is the next thing, then the margin and stocking fees charged by the seller. Denco is a major supplier and turbo dealer in Australia, and as such they do not need up-charge their turbos as much as other companies - generally saving the kit buyer a fair bit of money.

The AXT uses a water-cooled turbo which is an unnecessary expense as there is just not that much trouble with heat in diesel turbos. The only guys that will tell you that you need a water-cooled turbo are the ones that are using them for gasoline applications where the heat generated is much higher, and the boost levels are much higher. All the turbo diesel engineers and designers I have spoken to about these applications will insist that there is no need at all for a water cooled turbo on these applications.

In response about not returning your calls - I did not get the message, and I have followed up on that. I am the one and only information source here for these kinds of questions and I often have to field dozens of tech calls a day (from all over the world) as well as get my work in the shop (pulling wrenches) done as well.

As far as exhaust goes - the experts will tell you that a 2-1/8" is fine, but I feel that a 2.5" is more than enough and 3" is total overkill (as well as more difficult to plumb in).

~John

 

[ChrisB]

The Denco kit is not priced at $3092.53.

It is priced at $2513.79 CAD if I bring them in by pallet freight, and somewhat more if I bring them in via air freight.

The air freight price that we tend to quote is $2967.40, but it depends on how it gets shipped - the delivery time is about a week if it's coming in via air.

I keep a certain number of turbos in stock, but it's hard to keep very many as they are heavy to ship and expensive to have sitting in inventory as a relatively slow turn-over item. With fluctuations in the economy still producing some pretty strong up and down cycles in the business world, I tend to stock parts that turn over more frequently and order in the slower movers as I need them.

The Schwizer turbo is a very high quality unit that is considered a "first line" product. The housings are made custom by Denco for the application so that the AR is matched properly to the engine, boost levels, and rpm range. The 3B turbo is capable of making far more boost then the engine should have... but that is all about how you choose to tune it.

The differences in cost between the various suppliers has a lot to do with what's being offered in the kit as far as the small parts goes. Then the choice of the actual turbo is the next thing, then the margin and stocking fees charged by the seller. Denco is a major supplier and turbo dealer in Australia, and as such they do not need up-charge their turbos as much as other companies - generally saving the kit buyer a fair bit of money.

The AXT uses a water-cooled turbo which is an unnecessary expense as there is just not that much trouble with heat in diesel turbos. The only guys that will tell you that you need a water-cooled turbo are the ones that are using them for gasoline applications where the heat generated is much higher, and the boost levels are much higher. All the turbo diesel engineers and designers I have spoken to about these applications will insist that there is no need at all for a water cooled turbo on these applications.

In response about not returning your calls - I did not get the message, and I have followed up on that. I am the one and only information source here for these kinds of questions and I often have to field dozens of tech calls a day (from all over the world) as well as get my work in the shop (pulling wrenches) done as well.

As far as exhaust goes - the experts will tell you that a 2-1/8" is fine, but I feel that a 2.5" is more than enough and 3" is total overkill (as well as more difficult to plumb in).

~John

John,
This wasn't supposed to be a thread slandering you in any way. We have spoke on the phone before and you have been very helpful and knowledgeable. Your receptionist warned me that you were very busy and that is no surprise to me. She tried to help but told me no more than I already knew and mentioned to me that your price on the Denco kit was most likely out of date and thus did not disclose one. The price I have for the Denco is the price I was given from them directly not through you. That was one of the reasons I was calling. This and your opinion on the others out there (which you have now stated).
Thanks for your input. (Worth much more than 2c!)
We will be in touch.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

@Pete. I was living at 10,000 when I installed my turbo. HUGE difference. hills I would end in second gear to finish are now easily climbed in 3rd with power to spare if my cooling system was up to the task.

Heat seems to be my limiting factor. It will be interesting to see how that changes with the rebuild, 4core and intercooler I have planned.

IMHO an exhaust will need to be done for you as you will have to find a way to get the exhaust from your turbo to the existing flange, which will sit very close to the bottom of the 13BT manifold. It will be a exercise to get the pipes bent to get to the stock exhaust anyway. I am planning on running mine until the end of the summer. If you were interested in me sending my drop pipe and flex pipe to you, I could do so along with the turbo kit from D42.

Either way, you will have to have something custom, so you might as well get rid of the stock setup. I got the added advantage of keeping the exhaust outlet on the same side of the car as the manifold so I recouped a large amount of space where the old muffler used to be behind the rear axle. Now I have room for a spare tank, storage compartment, or something else!

PM me if you have any other Q's or want pictures.

 

[fj-rankenstein]

sorry if this has been mentioned but what are you doing for the downpipe directly off the turbo?? i searched and didnt see anything where this is included in the kit.. is this a piece that can be sourced or bought or even made?? i am quite interested in this kit and hopefully will have a little cash closer to october....

 

[ChrisB]

Well I finally decided on Keith's kit. After speaking to him on the phone at length about the kit, it is exactly what I am looking for.
I ordered the yesterday and will keep everyone in the loop about the progress.

sorry if this has been mentioned but what are you doing for the downpipe directly off the turbo?? i searched and didnt see anything where this is included in the kit.. is this a piece that can be sourced or bought or even made?? i am quite interested in this kit and hopefully will have a little cash closer to october....

I think you may be talking about the exhaust flange. I asked the same question to Keith just the other day and he told me that they are something that your local exhaust shop will have in stock. he said they usually have a peg board of all different kinds and just pick the one that fits. they will grab a piece of pipe, bend it to fit between the turbo and the existing pipe, then flare the end of it to match the flange. It then, just gets bolted and welded up.. finished. He figured it will cost 50bux or so.
The really important part here is that you ask the guy if you can have a piece of his scrap straight pipe that is about 9.5-10" long. This will be needed to run across the valve cover to go in between the silicone intake hoses he supplies.

HTH
chris

 

[jzilla]

Chris when you get this kit I would love to see how it goes! We could always meet up beforehand sometime as well if we are in each others neighbourhoods.

 

[Capitalguy]

Well I finally decided on Keith's kit. After speaking to him on the phone at length about the kit, it is exactly what I am looking for.
I ordered the yesterday and will keep everyone in the loop about the progress.



I think you may be talking about the exhaust flange. I asked the same question to Keith just the other day and he told me that they are something that your local exhaust shop will have in stock. he said they usually have a peg board of all different kinds and just pick the one that fits. they will grab a piece of pipe, bend it to fit between the turbo and the existing pipe, then flare the end of it to match the flange. It then, just gets bolted and welded up.. finished. He figured it will cost 50bux or so.
The really important part here is that you ask the guy if you can have a piece of his scrap straight pipe that is about 9.5-10" long. This will be needed to run across the valve cover to go in between the silicone intake hoses he supplies.

HTH
chris

You may want to consider a piece of 2" polished aluminum tubing between the silicone hoses instead of exhaust pipe, not that expensive, I got mine at a place that deals with tuners, seems to fit the inside diameter of the silicone hoses just right. Cut to length, deburr, good to go. Looks better too.

 

[ChrisB]

Good idea. There's a metal superstore not far away from me. And they have tons of waste bits lying around and aluminum is less than $3 /lb great idea.
Thanks

 

[Brew83]

Hello everyone I'm new to the forum and found this post on turbos very helpful. I have a 1983 FJ60 which the PO swapped out the 2F and 4sd and put a 3B with a H55f in. He told me he used the 2F motor mounts so my engine sits back about 1.25" from the original 3B placement. My question is does anyone have the measurement from the turbo exhaust elbow to the firewall in a stock 3b motor mount placement. I'm wondering with my motor back the 1.25" if I can still fit the turbo mounted onto the 13bt manifold on my 3b block.

Thanks any info would help