Sleuths Needed: The Intermittent Start Devil is on me again! (1 Viewer)

[roncruiser]

Is it possible to change the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW) on the A442 tranny? I know where' it's located. I just don't see the connector at the switch. There are a bunch of wires running into the switch, but no connector to disconnect.

I'm getting the dreaded intermittent start again. I've replaced just about everything along the ignition switch electrical path except for the wiring in the harness itself. I'm either going to use my own wiring to bypass the internal wiring in the wiring harness, or replace the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW) on the tranny, or both. (note: I am not going to bypass the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW)).

I few weeks ago, I replaced the starter contacts on a two years old reman. starter. That wasn't it. This past weekend, I replaced the reman. starter with another reman starter. That didn't fix it. A few years ago, I replaced ignition switch with a new one. I shouldn't have to replace that again. I checked and cleaned and retorqued all my grounds again and again and again. I even replaced the heavy gauge ground cable from the batt. to the engine block. I replaced the fusible links again and again. The only thing I can think of is some splice in the wiring harness is going KAPUT! OR the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW) is going bad. The intermittent start is at an all time high! Yes, I hear the click from the starter as I turn the key. A nice strong click!

Back to my original question... can I replace the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW) on the A442, or is it too much of a hassle?

 

[JollyGreen]

If you hear a click from the starter when you turn the key, it is the starter, or your main power wire going to your starter.

If the click is coming from a relay under the dash, not the starter, it might have......
1. a neutral safety switch that is going bad
2. an alarm you don't know about
3. keyless entry that has a starter kill that is going bad

You need to put a test light on the starter and see if it is getting power when the problem occurs.
I'm sure someone here could show you the proper terminals, but there will be one very large wire "that has constant 12v" going to the solenoid, and one small wire that only goes to 12v when the key is in the start position.

Ground the test light to the battery ground directly, then Test power to the small wire while the car isn't starting by having someone else turn the key to the start position, if it lights up, then there is no problem in the wiring from the key through the neutral safetey switch, to the starter.

then check power at the starter from the big wire and make sure it has power the entire time, even when trying to start it, if you loose power there, then you have a main power issue. a simple fix of the large wire that goes from the battery to the starter.

Then ground the test light to the motor, and check the large power wire again while trying to start. "this will test the engine ground"

The real question is does the starters bendix click "you felt it with your hand" or are you hearing a relay under the dash when you turn the key to start?

 

[Jonny Wagner]

my '62 did the same thing. I put in a new starter and it got worse. Pulled the new (reman) starter off & bench tested it & it would barely spin. Got another reman starter & hasn't happened since. That's the 3rd bad reman starter I have had through the years.

 

[bhmmapping]

I'm having the exact same problem.

I replaced contacts in the starter, battery, and fusible links last year and the problem was better with an occasional no start on the first key turn, but it always started.

Last weekend it would not start at all. I swapped in a RMFD starter I had on the shelf waiting, and it starts a little better, but still intermittent with lots of tries when it is hot.

I noticed that the ground wire from the bottom starter bolt was missing, so I added that and it didn't help(although it did mess up my idle??).

I think JollyGreen is correct and will be replacing the main power cable to the starter.

 

[roncruiser]

If you hear a click from the starter when you turn the key, it is the starter, or your main power wire going to your starter.

If the click is coming from a relay under the dash, not the starter, it might have......
1. a neutral safety switch that is going bad
2. an alarm you don't know about
3. keyless entry that has a starter kill that is going bad

You need to put a test light on the starter and see if it is getting power when the problem occurs.
I'm sure someone here could show you the proper terminals, but there will be one very large wire "that has constant 12v" going to the solenoid, and one small wire that only goes to 12v when the key is in the start position.

Ground the test light to the battery ground directly, then Test power to the small wire while the car isn't starting by having someone else turn the key to the start position, if it lights up, then there is no problem in the wiring from the key through the neutral safetey switch, to the starter.

then check power at the starter from the big wire and make sure it has power the entire time, even when trying to start it, if you loose power there, then you have a main power issue. a simple fix of the large wire that goes from the battery to the starter.

Then ground the test light to the motor, and check the large power wire again while trying to start. "this will test the engine ground"

The real question is does the starters bendix click "you felt it with your hand" or are you hearing a relay under the dash when you turn the key to start?

The click is definitely coming from the starter. I'm pretty sure there isn't a relay under the dash within this circuit. In a North American 1994 there isn't. The problem is the the intermittant starts are "intermittant". Random.

I've replaced the large cable running directly from the battery to the starter a couple years ago. I've rechecked continuity
of that supply cable and it's still in very good condition. No corrosion at all, as I live in a relatively dry climate.
The ground connection cable from the battery to the engine block is in good condition as well. I've inspected that cable
many times as well. That cable was replaced a couple years ago too.

I have an alarm that I'll check AGAIN, but that seems to be working well too.

Back to my original question. Can the, as some call it, Neutural Safety Switch be replaced on the A442 as it seems there is no direct connector at the
switch??? (The Electrical Wiring Diagram calls it the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW).)

Hmmm.....

 

[bhmmapping]

If there was a problem with the NSS you wouldn't get a click at the starter, correct? Mine had a little trouble this morning and a lot of trouble on the way home for lunch. I noticed that the voltage meter was a little lower than normal, just barely above the half mark when I went to start both times. I have not suspected my battery since I bought a new one last year(cheapo at oreilly b/c I was in a pinch), but I am starting to strongly suspect it is the culprit. How old and what type of battery do you have?

 

[96r50]

... Yes, I hear the click from the starter as I turn the key. A nice strong click!

Back to my original question... can I replace the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW (NEUTRAL START SW) on the A442, or is it too much of a hassle?

Two things here that I can think of.

First off, the "nice strong click from the starter" is actually a "lame, weak click-that-should-be-the-starter-engaging". I would think that you are not getting enough current to the starter solenoid to trigger the starter.

The other point: you can replace the PNP/NSS if you want to. It's a couple hundred $$ and a hassle, so don't start there. Have you tried starting it in neutral when you are having the trouble?

I had a very similar problem a few years ago (I posted in one of your threads about it). Totally random no-starts, still had 12V at the starter trigger wire, new contacts/plunger, checked the ignition switch etc. I had checked the NSS connector too at some point but obviously not well enough since it turned out to be the culprit.

From my experience (as well as that of TOY350, Romer and possibly a couple other folks) I think your trouble lies within the two large gauge connectors on the NSS that bring current in from the ignition switch and out to the starter. On mine, one was completely torn through, and the other was 50% finished. They were also both gunked up with corrosion. I realize the NSS is different on the A442F with it's little pigtail, but it works the same way as the A343F NSS, so I would start there. These broken/corroded connectors would pass enough current to trigger the starter most of the time, but then they would randomly not pass enough current and the truck wouldn't start. I was all set to replace the wire from the NSS to the starter (I thought it had a short somewhere - I was an electrical noob!), and when I pulled the wire splice out of the NSS connector it came out in two nasty pieces. I checked the other one (coming from the ignition switch into the NSS) and it was nearly the same. I replaced the two wire splices and NSS plastic connector with new ones and I haven't had any trouble since (2 yrs ago).

Start by undoing the connection between the NSS and the main engine wire harness and checking the condition of the splices. The best way would be to remove them (all four in your case) from the plastic connector to make sure they are sound (if I hadn't have taken mine out of the connector I would never have found the problem)

I'll dig up the older threads and link them back here in a minute.

 

[96r50]

I noticed that you posted in a couple of the threads I mentioned, but I'll link them all here for the sake of completeness.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/172212-intermittant-starter.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/233993-starter-neutral-safety-switch.html
Similar, could also be your trouble: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/246435-no-start.html

 

[roncruiser]

If there was a problem with the NSS you wouldn't get a click at the starter, correct? Mine had a little trouble this morning and a lot of trouble on the way home for lunch. I noticed that the voltage meter was a little lower than normal, just barely above the half mark when I went to start both times. I have not suspected my battery since I bought a new one last year(cheapo at oreilly b/c I was in a pinch), but I am starting to strongly suspect it is the culprit. How old and what type of battery do you have?

The battery is new. Just replaced it. Diehard Platinum. 2 weeks old.

Two things here that I can think of.

First off, the "nice strong click from the starter" is actually a "lame, weak click-that-should-be-the-starter-engaging". I would think that you are not getting enough current to the starter solenoid to trigger the starter.

The other point: you can replace the PNP/NSS if you want to. It's a couple hundred $$ and a hassle, so don't start there. Have you tried starting it in neutral when you are having the trouble?

I had a very similar problem a few years ago (I posted in one of your threads about it). Totally random no-starts, still had 12V at the starter trigger wire, new contacts/plunger, checked the ignition switch etc. I had checked the NSS connector too at some point but obviously not well enough since it turned out to be the culprit.

From my experience (as well as that of TOY350, Romer and possibly a couple other folks) I think your trouble lies within the two large gauge connectors on the NSS that bring current in from the ignition switch and out to the starter. On mine, one was completely torn through, and the other was 50% finished. They were also both gunked up with corrosion. I realize the NSS is different on the A442F with it's little pigtail, but it works the same way as the A343F NSS, so I would start there. These broken/corroded connectors would pass enough current to trigger the starter most of the time, but then they would randomly not pass enough current and the truck wouldn't start. I was all set to replace the wire from the NSS to the starter (I thought it had a short somewhere - I was an electrical noob!), and when I pulled the wire splice out of the NSS connector it came out in two nasty pieces. I checked the other one (coming from the ignition switch into the NSS) and it was nearly the same. I replaced the two wire splices and NSS plastic connector with new ones and I haven't had any trouble since (2 yrs ago).

Start by undoing the connection between the NSS and the main engine wire harness and checking the condition of the splices. The best way would be to remove them (all four in your case) from the plastic connector to make sure they are sound (if I hadn't have taken mine out of the connector I would never have found the problem)

I'll dig up the older threads and link them back here in a minute.

Yeah, I'm thinking the starter solenoid is not getting enough juice too. I'll check the wires leading to the NSS/PSS. Though, what I've been stressing is that there's no plastic connector at the NFS/PSS to disconnect. Apparently the wires lead directly into the NsS/PSS. I'll have to get under there again and check. For the A442, the NSS/PSS is on the drivers side of the tranny and there is no obvious connector at the NSS/PSS. Can anyone shed more light on this connectorless NSS/PSS???????

I noticed that you posted in a couple of the threads I mentioned, but I'll link them all here for the sake of completeness.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/172212-intermittant-starter.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/233993-starter-neutral-safety-switch.html
Similar, could also be your trouble: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/246435-no-start.html

Thanks.

 

[96r50]

Yeah, I'm thinking the starter solenoid is not getting enough juice too. I'll check the wires leading to the NSS/PSS. Though, what I've been stressing is that there's no plastic connector at the NFS/PSS to disconnect. Apparently the wires lead directly into the NsS/PSS. I'll have to get under there again and check. For the A442, the NSS/PSS is on the drivers side of the tranny and there is no obvious connector at the NSS/PSS. Can anyone shed more light on this connectorless NSS/PSS???????

The wires lead out of the NSS to a connector, guaranteed.

 

[roncruiser]

The wires lead out of the NSS to a connector, guaranteed.

I'll check again. Thanks, man!

 

[medtro]

There is no connector at the NSS side, the closest connector is by the PHH and starter.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/246598-nss-connector.html#post3765049

Yeah, I'm thinking the starter solenoid is not getting enough juice too. I'll check the wires leading to the NSS/PSS. Though, what I've been stressing is that there's no plastic connector at the NFS/PSS to disconnect. Apparently the wires lead directly into the NsS/PSS. I'll have to get under there again and check. For the A442, the NSS/PSS is on the drivers side of the tranny and there is no obvious connector at the NSS/PSS. Can anyone shed more light on this connectorless NSS/PSS???????



Thanks.

 

[96r50]

Wowzers, fixing my NSS connector seems easy now!

 

[roncruiser]

There is no connector at the NSS side, the closest connector is by the PHH and starter.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/246598-nss-connector.html#post3765049

Arghhh! I knew the connector was up stream somewhere. Thanks.

 

[bhmmapping]

I think I have finally fixed my intermittent start problem, hopefully this will help you with yours. I found this thread from last year:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/211786-starter-ignition-circuit-thought.html

which basically says that the stock ignition wiring degrades over time, and that the intermittent start with the click at the starter might occur when there is not enough power to activate the solenoid on the starter. The suggested remedy was to add a new solenoid with heavier guage wire going to the starter solenoid.

I had already replaced the starter, battery, battery cables and grounds, so the ignition circuit was my last hope.

I bought a 50 amp fuse, an ST 81 starter solenoid switch from NAPA, and some 10 and 12 gauge wire with connectors. I ran the 10 gauge wire through the 50 amp fuse to the new solenoid and from the new solenoid to the solenoid connector on the starter. I connected the ignition circuit to the new solenoid with 12 guage wire.

For the first time in as long as I can remember the truck starts as soon as the key is turned.

there is an extra post on the ST 81 solenoid that is not used so I taped it off. It also grounds to the body instead of a dedicated post. The original thread lists some better options(ST 80, ST 85 and others) that ground to a post instead of the body, but this was the only one in stock so I bought it.

I still have to clean up the mount and wiring but here are some pictures to give a better idea of what I did.

 

[roncruiser]

Cr@p. Can't get at the connector properly. Was able to disconnect the power connector with one hand from underneath. Wasn't able to get the other connector apart with one hand. I'll have to pull the starter to get at the other connector. What a pain in the ass.

When I had the power connector apart, I was able to look inside the male side of the connector. It looked good. Wasn't able to look inside the female part of the connector.

 

[Lka1988]

All this can be figured out very quickly. The NSS would be one of the last things I'd check.

Next time the vehicle decides to not start, get a buddy and have him/her hold the key in the "start" position while you take a hammer and TAP the starter via an extension. If it works, the starter is the culprit and needs new contacts or to be replaced.

You've already mentioned a "strong click" coming from the starter when the key is turned. That automatically rules out the NSS, since voltage needs to pass through the NSS to engage the solenoid in the first place (which makes that "click" sound, but usually isn't heard over the motor cranking over).

 

[bhmmapping]

Update: Since adding the new wire and Solenoid I haven't had a single problem.

Lane, from what I have read the wiring in the ignition circuit degrades over time to the point where it cannot activate the solenoid in the starter. I was hearing a strong click from the starter, but it would not start with a hammer.

 

[mendozart]

When I was having these same problems in my 4Runner, I ended up installing the hot shot relay from Painless Wiring. Never had a problem after that.
Painless Wiring 30202 - Painless Performance Hot Shot Relays - Overview - SummitRacing.com

 

[roncruiser]

When I was having these same problems in my 4Runner, I ended up installing the hot shot relay from Painless Wiring. Never had a problem after that.
Painless Wiring 30202 - Painless Performance Hot Shot Relays - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Nice. Can you post a drawing or an explanation with details of how you went about installing the relay? Like a schematic of your circuit, or just written details. I'm always at a loss of how to tap into, or splice into wires properly.

Update: Since adding the new wire and Solenoid I haven't had a single problem.

Lane, from what I have read the wiring in the ignition circuit degrades over time to the point where it cannot activate the solenoid in the starter. I was hearing a strong click from the starter, but it would not start with a hammer.

I'm probably going to implement the relay some time soon. I'll read up on your posts. Thanks!

All this can be figured out very quickly. The NSS would be one of the last things I'd check.

Next time the vehicle decides to not start, get a buddy and have him/her hold the key in the "start" position while you take a hammer and TAP the starter via an extension. If it works, the starter is the culprit and needs new contacts or to be replaced.

You've already mentioned a "strong click" coming from the starter when the key is turned. That automatically rules out the NSS, since voltage needs to pass through the NSS to engage the solenoid in the first place (which makes that "click" sound, but usually isn't heard over the motor cranking over).

It can't be figured out quickly... this time, one of the first things I did was change the starter contacts... no, I actually installed a reman. starter. That's why I started wondering about the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW. Though, you bring up a valid point. If the PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SW was highly suspect, I wouldn't hear the click at the starter. I'm thinking it's just a bad connector/connection somewhere in the circuit. I'm leaning towards a relay..