PTO driven Hydraulic winches..real or myth (1 Viewer)

[Volcano cruiser]

In my never ending quest to find something that won't leave me crying as I watch most of my pay stub drift away before I can actually use the money for food I was trolling around the winching sub forums and found this recommended by a fellow mudder:

Winches - Greg Smith Equipment Sales, Inc

The 10k version was recommended over the 13k based on it's gearing. Thereafter ensued two debates, the first was similar to the pto v. electric debate, i.e. if the rig isn't running then neither will the hydraulic winch. On this one I figure if you have decided pto v. electric the same logic will apply to hydraulic v. electric.

The second debate was over running hydraulic off of the toyota ps pump. Those who have tried claim that the Toyota ps pump is too weak to run the hydraulic winch or it will run it but leave the winch running slow or underpowered. I have the 60 series ps setup in the mail should arrive any day so this concerns me. Short of getting a saginaw as suggested by a couple of mudders running hydraulic winches, the solution suggested was running the hydraulic pump off of the pto. It is said that there are folks here who have done it. Does anyone have a picture of a hydraulic winch pump running off of pump connected to the pto? I have not given up on the pto idea but that is alot of pull for a decent price if you can work out the pump to pto piece.

Just exactly how much of the pto would you need connected to the t case to drive the pump? Just the pto case and it's innards (36610) or farther out and all of the pto assembly (36611)...?

Are we talking something like this for a hydraulic pump. If so the pump costs as much as the winch:
Hydraulic Tractor PTO Pumps - PTO Pumps for Backhoes, Tractors, and other Hydraulic Implements - Free Shipping

Is Lowenbrau around searches on here keep popping up his build thread:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/70-series-te...4-buildup.html where he and others mention that he is running this setup. Has anyone seen it, did you get any pics of it or can anyone get word to him to swing through and "hook a mudder up" with the "how to" on his setup.

I even found this ozzie post which didn't resolve the issue either:
http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/64624/PTO_Winch_60_series.aspx

To the mods I originally posed this question kind of off topic in another older thread so decided to pose it here on its own and not part of the pto v. electric debate. Hope that's ok.
Thanks to all,
John

 

[mano002]

I have seen Lowenbrau's set-up. It is pretty slick, but he's not 100% happy with it. He has a 10,000lb milemarker (I think) hydraulic winch and he has a hydraulic pump mounted off the rear of his PTO. This is a super strong set-up, but it does have a drawback. If you are winching and trying to help it out by spinning the tires a bit, the winch speed and tire-speed can't be matched. You can't let the clutch in and out to try and pop the tires up onte Terra firma because as soon as you push in the clutch the winch stops. I think he has some plans in th works to fix that.

His build-up thread is below, and I know there is still discussion on the thread, so you could have a read and ask some questions.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/139874-expedition-bj74-buildup.html

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I have seen Lowenbrau's set-up. It is pretty slick, but he's not 100% happy with it. He has a 10,000lb milemarker (I think) hydraulic winch and he has a hydraulic pump mounted off the rear of his PTO. This is a super strong set-up, but it does have a drawback. If you are winching and trying to help it out by spinning the tires a bit, the winch speed and tire-speed can't be matched. You can't let the clutch in and out to try and pop the tires up onte Terra firma because as soon as you push in the clutch the winch stops. I think he has some plans in th works to fix that.

His build-up thread is below, and I know there is still discussion on the thread, so you could have a read and ask some questions.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/139874-expedition-bj74-buildup.html

Yeah dude has some tremendous fabbing skills and the rig looks great. However the only mention of the hydraulic winch pto setup was on a to do list he posted. I PM'd him a week ago, hopefully he gets back with some more info.

 

[crushr]

PTO hydraulic winches are real, however they are the most complex, and hence most expensive, winch configuration. Certainly not the route to take if you are trying to save some dough.

If you like PTO, you may want to look for a used ramsey setup - they usually sell for about 1/2 the price vs OEM.

 

[jasonmt]

I have a pto powered hydro pump on my F-550, the stock power steering pump was not anywhere near big enough to run a MM 12k winch but this would be my choice if I only running a winch as it would be considerbly cheaper than the pto setup was:

High Pressure Hydraulic Clutch Pump — 2.32Cu In. | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I have a pto powered hydro pump on my F-550, the stock power steering pump was not anywhere near big enough to run a MM 12k winch but this would be my choice if I only running a winch as it would be considerbly cheaper than the pto setup was:

High Pressure Hydraulic Clutch Pump — 2.32Cu In. | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment

Jason,
Can you describe your setup in detail? If you have any pictures that would be great. A real blow by blow description of your setup with pics would really help me understand what is involved. For example the pto driven pump that I found, referenced above, is gear driven, that is connects directly to the pto shaft. The one that you pointed to is belt driven, it looks like off of the serpentine belt on the engine like an air compressor. so I'd really like to see how you engineered using something similar with the pto case. Of course the benefit of using an engine driven pump like this is that you could help the winch by steering etc, with the winch rolling non stop. Thanks again for responding, there really is very little about this setup written so I look forward to seeing the pics and hearing about your setup.
John
BTW
the only guys known to do this so far are canucks...is this a Canadian thing or something
Cheers

 

[Volcano cruiser]

PTO hydraulic winches are real, however they are the most complex, and hence most expensive, winch configuration. Certainly not the route to take if you are trying to save some dough.

If you like PTO, you may want to look for a used ramsey setup - they usually sell for about 1/2 the price vs OEM.

Trust me when I tell you if it even has two of three letters in pto associated with it I have looked at it. For me unless I can find a complete soup to nuts setup for a split t case, I can see myself being in scavenger hunt mode for all of the bits and pieces for a long time. There are three guys in my local club who have "pto". two of them have the winches mounted and the pto cases and each are actively looking for different bits in the middle. The one guy with a working pto setup has a Ramsey made for Toyota. It is on a 70 series and came with the rig when he bought it. No one has seen one of those around here in years apart from his.

One upside to the hydraulics would be if I were to go this route I could always run it off of the ps pump and after a while if that wasn't cutting it enough for me I could add a hydro pump like jason referenced and just have to re-route the hydro lines to the new pump location. Again just thinking all of this through until I can see some pics. Like everything the devil is in the details. Thanks
John

 

[zebrabeefj40]

I have a pto powered hydro pump on my F-550, the stock power steering pump was not anywhere near big enough to run a MM 12k winch but this would be my choice if I only running a winch as it would be considerbly cheaper than the pto setup was:

High Pressure Hydraulic Clutch Pump — 2.32Cu In. | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment

This pump is more than enough to drive a PTO winch. My uncle used this pump to drive the hydraulic system of his rollback (sliding and lifting the bed and running the Ramsey hydraulic winch).

The system is fairly simple: Drive the pump with the engine. Brackets are custom of course. Feed the pump from a tank (I'd want a couple gallons so the fluid doesn't heat up so fast). Output from the tank through a valve to the winch head. Exhaust fluid from winch back to tank through a filter head and maybe a cooler. Not exactly sure what type of valve you need to run with that pump. IIRC the fluid needs to flow continuous from the pump to somewhere; either through the valve to the winch or through the valve to the tank. I don't think the pump has a bypass built into it. I do recall it had enough balls to stop the motor if we bound-up the winch or held a cylinder valve open too long after hitting the end of travel on the cylinders. Regardless this pump works well with winches.

To drive the gear pump you linked you would use a short driveshaft from the PTO on the t-case to the pump. When installed the pump is usually mounted to the frame and plumbed similar to the belt drive pump. Again, type of pump dictates the type of valve used to control the winch. To see examples of this look under some dump trucks, rollbacks/towtrucks and propane delivery trucks.

You need to be careful using a t-case or tranmission-driven PTO pump though. Make sure you take the PTO out of gear before you hit the road at the end of the day. There is a risk of turning the pump too fast at road speeds. I've repaired a couple dump trucks after the driver tossed the PTO driveshaft and/or pump on the highway. This is less of an issue with engine-driven pumps because the RPM range of the pump and motor are similar.

Good luck with your project!

Nick

 

[jasonmt]

Jason,
Can you describe your setup in detail? If you have any pictures that would be great. A real blow by blow description of your setup with pics would really help me understand what is involved. For example the pto driven pump that I found, referenced above, is gear driven, that is connects directly to the pto shaft. The one that you pointed to is belt driven, it looks like off of the serpentine belt on the engine like an air compressor. so I'd really like to see how you engineered using something similar with the pto case. Of course the benefit of using an engine driven pump like this is that you could help the winch by steering etc, with the winch rolling non stop. Thanks again for responding, there really is very little about this setup written so I look forward to seeing the pics and hearing about your setup.
John
BTW
the only guys known to do this so far are canucks...is this a Canadian thing or something
Cheers

The pump you linked to is for a tractor pto which is a totally different animal than the transmission/transfer case pto on a truck.

Tractor pto:

With pump:

The v-belt pump I posted earlier would be the way I would go for only powering a winch as it is more than enough to drive a hydro winch and would be a much less complicated and cheaper setup with the advantage you mentioned of being able to clutch and change gears without interrupting the flow of hydraulic fluid. Also much easier to get to and repair/maintain etc.


In my case I have a ZF-6 transmission with a pto drive and direct mount pump so a Toyota pto drive may not look the exact same etc. On the ZF-6 the pto drive bolts to the 6 bolt cover you can see on the transmission and the hydro pump bolts to the pto drive. The pto drive can be geared internally so it can overdrive or underdrive the output side of the pto drive and the pto drive has an internal engagement mechanism that can be operated via air, electric or cable. My setup is sized to get me ~20gpm @ 2000psi with the truck at idle and the winch has a spool valve as well that can be operated in the cab as well for infinite speed control. As well I have the pto drive engagement ran through the Ford AIC so it will not leave the pto drive engaged after 1800rpm so I do not over speed the pump. Pictures off of the web as I am a few hours away from the 550:

 

[crushr]

Here's a complete factory PTO setup for $750:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/sale-parts/246761-pto-set-up.html

If you want a PTO hydraulic setup, you may want to look into the OEM rear output PTO - SOR has them for all LC transfer cases thru 1980:

http://www.sor.com/sor/cat071.tam?xax=31296&page.ctx=cat071.tam

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Here's a complete factory PTO setup for $750:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/sale-parts/246761-pto-set-up.html

If you want a PTO hydraulic setup, you may want to look into the OEM rear output PTO - SOR has them for all LC transfer cases thru 1980:

Specter Off-Road-Land Cruiser Parts - Page 071-PTO Winch

As to Bull's complete setup. I talked to him when it was up on Ebay. His gearbox is for a 3 spd solid t case and I have a 4 spd split case. Too bad too as I was ready to jump on that. As to the rear output gear boxes, I had decided, if possible, if I was going to go PTO that I wanted rear output. What I don't know but will ask is if those gear boxes will work with a 4 spd split case. Thanks for the heads up,
John

 

[shelfboy1]

i wouldnt put anything belt drive under the truck.running a belt drive pump off the engine if there is room makes more sense and would be cheaper and easier .one advantage to a factory pto winch if the engine dies you can engage everything and use the starter to right your truck .was alone once and had to do this .its seems like a lot of time and money for a pto hydraulic winch when a factory pto would work fine .i drive tow truck part time and they are all pto driven hydraulic and they pull anything but are almost always on dry pavement and the pump is built into the pto no belt.i would hate to be up to the frame in mud and have a belt come off but its your choice so go with your gut good luck

 

[Volcano cruiser]

i wouldnt put anything belt drive under the truck.running a belt drive pump off the engine if there is room makes more sense and would be cheaper and easier .one advantage to a factory pto winch if the engine dies you can engage everything and use the starter to right your truck .was alone once and had to do this .its seems like a lot of time and money for a pto hydraulic winch when a factory pto would work fine .i drive tow truck part time and they are all pto driven hydraulic and they pull anything but are almost always on dry pavement and the pump is built into the pto no belt.i would hate to be up to the frame in mud and have a belt come off but its your choice so go with your gut good luck

I agree. My understanding, and thus the reason for posting this thread, is that the pto hydraulic setups that folks were running were gear driven not belt driven. It seemed to me that the value would be to have the hydraulic pump connected to the pto output shaft directly not via a belt. But that is just how I envisioned this. I still haven't seen pics. It has been tough because no one yet has posted up pics of their working setup in a cruiser.

 

[shelfboy1]

i have pto driven hydraulics on my 6x6 dump truck and on my gmc dump .the pumps are direct drive off the pto using a drive shaft .the principle on a cruiser should be the same .the tow trucks i drive also have the same setup but they have a throttle for heavy winching.the pumps have mounting brackets on them so mounting 1 one a 40 shouldnt be to hard.if you stay with a wrecker pump or similar capacity a hydraulic winch will pull huge amounts of weight and can be pretty quick.