Early F engine water pump conundrum (1 Viewer)

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Hi,
My name is Chip Robie. I live in Stuart Virginia I have a 1968FJ40 with a three speed.

After a head gasket failure, I decided to do an F engine build, so my FJ would have a clean fresh motor. I ordered a remanufactured long block from an engine building service in Chatsworth California. They sent me an early F engine with casting ID F243255. This engine would be replacing the original FJ motor with casting ID F260456. The remanufactured engine comes as a long block, so I am responsible for adding all external engine parts: water pump, thermostat, alternator, oil, pressure regulator, oil pressure sender, intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, oil fill tube, and so on.

I have been taking my time on this build, starting first with painting the engine block in POR. I just got to adding a new water pump and thermostat to the block and made an unfortunate discovery. The water pump outlet on the remanufactured F engine is not in the same place as the water pump outlet on the F engine in my FJ 40. By this, I am referring to the water outlet from the block and the surrounding threaded stud holes for the water pump body. The water pump threaded stud holes on my current engine sit right next to the timing chain cover. There might be 1/32 of an inch between the nearest stud hole to the timing chain cover. The water pump on my remanufactured engine, sits higher by about an inch and a half. The nearest threaded stud hole is 1 1/4 inches away from the timing chain cover.

The net effect maintains the water pump body orientation, but moves the whole assembly up by about an inch and a half. The top of the water pump body actually touches the lower thermostat housing mount at the block. Where the original motor has a gap of one and a half to 2 inches between the top of the upper pulley and the lower thermostat housing, the remanufactured motor has no gap between the top of the upper pulley and the lower thermostat housing at all. The top of the pulley wheel fouls the lower t-stat housing, preventing the pulley wheel from being fully screwed in to the water pump spindle plate. The pulley wheel will not fit straight on.

Other than the moved location of the water pump body, everything else looks identical between my early F engine, and the remanufactured F engine. However, the moved location of the water pump causes cascading problems. It’s not just the interference preventing me from fully installing the upper pulley, but raising the water pump location on the block not only raises the upper pulley location, but also the upper alternator bracket location, but worse, even if I engineered a smaller pulley that would not hit hard parts, the cooling fan that attaches to the front of the pulley is no longer centered to fit inside my 1968 FJ radiator shroud.

Does anybody know what kind of Toyota F engine block I got? Does anybody know about water pumps that sit higher up than usual? Has anybody ever seen anything like this? I will follow this post with pictures of both the original F engine in the Toyota and my remanufactured engine on the engine stand. The original engine is a dirty factory black, and the remanufactured engine has been painted in blue POR.

I will be tremendously grateful for help from anyone who understands early F engines.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Here is the original engine with water pump, pulley and lower thermostat housing, showing an inch and a half of clearance.

Here is the original engine, showing the water pump

body sitting right next to the timing chain cover.

This is the original engine, showing the clearance between the upper pulley and the lower thermostat body

The image below shows the water pump and upper poly touching the lower thermostat housing on the remanufactured engine. In fact, the pulley does not fit flush to the mounting disk on the water pump because of the interference.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

The image below shows the remanufactured engine with the high water pump that causes the upper pulley wheel to foul on the lower thermostat housing.

The image below shows the water pump body on the remanufactured engine, touching the bottom of the thermostat housing at the block.

The image below of the remanufactured engine shows an offset of roughly an inch and a half between the timing chain cover, and the lower water pump threaded bolt hole. of the remanufactured engine. On the original engine, that bolt hole is right next to the timing, chain cover, a distance of maybe 1/32”.

Another picture of the remanufactured engine showing two fingers distance between the timing cover and the bottom of the water pump. On the original engine they are a knife blade width apart.

 

[mchlhmltn]

Hi,
My name is Chip Robie. I live in Stuart Virginia I have a 1968FJ40 with a three speed.

After a head gasket failure, I decided to do an F engine build, so my FJ would have a clean fresh motor. I ordered a remanufactured long block from an engine building service in Chatsworth California. They sent me an early F engine with casting ID F243255. This engine would be replacing the original FJ motor with casting ID F260456. The remanufactured engine comes as a long block, so I am responsible for adding all external engine parts: water pump, thermostat, alternator, oil, pressure regulator, oil pressure sender, intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, oil fill tube, and so on.

I have been taking my time on this build, starting first with painting the engine block in POR. I just got to adding a new water pump and thermostat to the block and made an unfortunate discovery. The water pump outlet on the remanufactured F engine is not in the same place as the water pump outlet on the F engine in my FJ 40. By this, I am referring to the water outlet from the block and the surrounding threaded stud holes for the water pump body. The water pump threaded stud holes on my current engine sit right next to the timing chain cover. There might be 1/32 of an inch between the nearest stud hole to the timing chain cover. The water pump on my remanufactured engine, sits higher by about an inch and a half. The nearest threaded stud hole is 1 1/4 inches away from the timing chain cover.

The net effect maintains the water pump body orientation, but moves the whole assembly up by about an inch and a half. The top of the water pump body actually touches the lower thermostat housing mount at the block. Where the original motor has a gap of one and a half to 2 inches between the top of the upper pulley and the lower thermostat housing, the remanufactured motor has no gap between the top of the upper pulley and the lower thermostat housing at all. The top of the pulley wheel fouls the lower t-stat housing, preventing the pulley wheel from being fully screwed in to the water pump spindle plate. The pulley wheel will not fit straight on.

Other than the moved location of the water pump body, everything else looks identical between my early F engine, and the remanufactured F engine. However, the moved location of the water pump causes cascading problems. It’s not just the interference preventing me from fully installing the upper pulley, but raising the water pump location on the block not only raises the upper pulley location, but also the upper alternator bracket location, but worse, even if I engineered a smaller pulley that would not hit hard parts, the cooling fan that attaches to the front of the pulley is no longer centered to fit inside my 1968 FJ radiator shroud.

Does anybody know what kind of Toyota F engine block I got? Does anybody know about water pumps that sit higher up than usual? Has anybody ever seen anything like this? I will follow this post with pictures of both the original F engine in the Toyota and my remanufactured engine on the engine stand. The original engine is a dirty factory black, and the remanufactured engine has been painted in blue POR.

I will be tremendously grateful for help from anyone who understands early F engines.

I am sure most people here could help especially with pictures.

 

[mchlhmltn]

Disregard my previous post lol

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

So, to sum up, my conundrum is a water pump, upper pulley, and thermostat housing conflict.
Here is a happy original motor with the right clearances:

… And here is my shiny new remanufactured engine, where the water pump comes out to high and jams all the moving bits together.

What could possibly be going on here?

 

[JohnnyC]

Your new engine is a 67’ block … about 6/67’

@bb67tlc has an engine in his 67’ that’s not far off from your block number

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

I am sure most people here could help especially with pictures.

A very good point, thank you, pictures have been posted. More are available on request.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Your new engine is a 67’ block … about 6/67’

@bb67tlc has an engine in his 67’ that’s not far off from your block number

Thank you for the information helping me date the remanufactured block. I am still confused because I can’t find different water pumps or thermostat housings for a 1967 motor. The water pump listings at SOR and cool cruisers are listed for the years 1968 to 1974. I would love a peek at the engine and water pump on the FJ of BB 67TLC.

 

[JohnnyC]

Btw I think that would be the wrong water pump … I think 67 still had the threaded upper bypass hose … so the pump case most likely is different


Maybe the lower tstat housing was different

 

[1969FJ]

That does look wrong. Here is an image of a 1965 f engine. I really cannot imagine how that happened.

 

[ToyotaMatt]

Btw I think that would be the wrong water pump … I think 67 still had the threaded upper bypass hose … so the pump case most likely is different


Maybe the lower tstat housing was different

2nd Jonny C

you need a 16100-60010 / 60011 pump for sure here ........

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

16100-60010

2nd Jonny C

you need a 16100-60010 / 60011 pump for sure here ........

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

I have tried SOR, and cool cruisers, and I can’t find a water pump by that number. The two new water pumps I have came from different sellers but both were for 1968 to 1972 F engines…

Could somebody find me a link to the specific water pump please? I am trying on my own but floundering. I promise, I am not being lazy.

 

[JohnnyC]

@FJ40Jim most likely can shed light on your issue … he’s the F-whisperer

 

[rainingagain]

I just went through this song and dance. You are going to be hard pressed to find that early pump. I looked for a very long time. Here's what it looks like. Notice the straight neck to accommodate the longer coolant pipe.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that your new block is a F.5 for F1.5. Here is a pic of the water pump on a spare 1970 engine that I have.

The water pump bolts right up near the timing cover.

Also plenty of clearance for the thermostat housing. Buuuuuuuut this is a thermostat housing on a F1.5. Also it's a thermostat housing that mates with the short, later design top housing. Do you have the really tall one or the shorter style? Looking at your lower housing, you probably have the taller style which is deeper.

Here is mine with that early style water pump and early style housing.

I can't speak to the differences on the internals for a F1.5 and whether or not you can run a 1F head on a F1.5 but the thermostat housings are different. You'll probably need to purchase a new lower and upper housing to run that pump.

I can measure the diameter of the pulleys between the two engines also. Do you have a build thread?

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Btw I think that would be the wrong water pump … I think 67 still had the threaded upper bypass hose … so the pump case most likely is different


Maybe the lower tstat housing was different

I can only find one thermostat housing part for the years 1968 to 1974. I really need to take a look at a 1967F engine.

 

[JohnnyC]

His new block is a 67 … definite not an f.5

 

[rainingagain]

His new block is a 67 … definite not an f.5

His new block has the later style water pump location.

Edit: disregard. I had the new and old engines flipped in my head.

 

[rainingagain]

I can only find one thermostat housing part for the years 1958 to 1974. I really need to take a look at a 1967F engine.

Do you mean 68 - 74? The change was at the end of 1967.

Early upper 16333-60020
Early lower 16331-60010