F.5 head job - questions about valve stem seals, lifters/pushrods (2 Viewers)

[insightbrewery]

Hey guys,

So I've been pulling stuff apart on this 1974 F.5, and it got far enough down that we decided to just pull the head and refresh it since it's only a couple dozen fasteners away. I've got several questions (in bold below), bear with me please. Pics when I get a chance to update the thread, not near the truck at the mo.

0. The valve stem seals. Looks like the original part number 90913-02017 is NLA, but overseas distributors show Musashi MV120 as a replacement, which directly cross-references to the original P/N. I ordered 12 of these, coming from overseas (looks like Ajusa is reboxing the Musashi product, but I can't seem to find it at any of the domestic suppliers I normally solicit). These look like umbrella seals. My question: should I go ahead and use these for the head job, or is it possible to fit positive valve stem seals for a slight upgrade? On the usual engines I work on (read: much newer in design), I use EOK Viton seals and they've never let me down. EDIT: the valve stems and guides the same diameter between F.5 and 2F engines, I just checked the P/N's (same). So what I'm really asking is, what would you guys use?

1. Looks like the OE lifters are still available (supersedes to 2F P/N 13751-61010), as are the pushrods (supersedes to 2F P/N 13781-61010). I read around here that the original lifters aren't hardened on the face and thus wear out after a while; what do you guys recommend? Should I check for abnormal wear and replace lifters and pushrods, and what's the word on original vs aftermarket lifters? Engine has a serious (and I mean serious) sludging problem, where I'm mechanically dislodging giant chunks and sucking them out with a shop vac. Oil pan and pump are to be replaced, and I saw a lot of wear on the cam lobes (pics soon) so wondering if we should just rebuild the engine.

Thanks as usual.

 

[insightbrewery]

So upon poking around this thread was helpful: Valve stem seal differences - fj40 - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/valve-stem-seal-differences-fj40.804811/

...so looks like the positive-type seals will work but for a '74 as per @Dizzy, they'll ride on the stem (so will act like the umbrella seals). Looks like I can get the 2F valve guides (which the original P/Ns supersede to as I checked above). I'll go ahead and order them.

Still wondering about lifters; are there any differences between an F lifter and 2F lifters? The P/Ns supersede as above, but wondering about functional or design differences. My lifter research:

Original F.5: 13751-60021
2F: 13751-61010
...supersession is on domestic Toyota dealer parts sites (I'm checking McGeorge Toyota). However, when I plug the original P/N into overseas systems (read: Amayama) it says out of production and suggests a different P/N: 13571-60030. Anybody know what the differences are between these three?

 

[Steamer]

Yes, the OEM umbrella seals for the 74 are NLA but if you check Toyota Parts Deal, the valve guides are the same 1969 through 1987 so the later positive seals work fine. I had the ITM 196 positive seals put on my recently rebuilt head.

Lifters are the same for the F, F.5, & 2F.

“Toyota Parts Deal” is a great site for researching parts. If you set up an account and then add lots of vehicle years to your “vehicle list” it’s easy to bring up one part, and then change vehicles to see the span of vehicles the same part fits.

If you’re considering a complete rebuild and you need pistons replaced, you’ll find getting the domed top pistons to be a problem.

 

[Grayscale]

The valve guides differ across years. So, the later OEM seal can be used for the early seals, but it rides on the valve, not pressed on the valve guide like you would find on a 2F from later production years. It is the chamfer on the top of the early guides that won't hold the later seal, but, they apparently don't have to so no big deal.

I have non-OEM seals on an early 2F from SOR. They don't have the same kind of coverage that the original ones had. No problem with their install and performance to this point. There were also some Fel-Pro seals that I found for a different head - RockAuto. I've never fired that one up yet, but they have the same coverage as the originals.

 

[insightbrewery]

Yes, the OEM umbrella seals for the 74 are NLA but if you check Toyota Parts Deal, the valve guides are the same 1969 through 1987 so the later positive seals work fine. I had the ITM 196 positive seals put on my recently rebuilt head.

Lifters are the same for the F, F.5, & 2F.

“Toyota Parts Deal” is a great site for researching parts. If you set up an account and then add lots of vehicle years to your “vehicle list” it’s easy to bring up one part, and then change vehicles to see the span of vehicles the same part fits.

If you’re considering a complete rebuild and you need pistons replaced, you’ll find getting the domed top pistons to be a problem.

Ah yes, I do like using TPD sometimes. Helps that they ship from near me if I need small parts. I normally use www.japan-parts.eu for diagrams and comparisons.

Would you recommend I replace the lifters? And which years/engine are the domed top pistons out of or are you referring to an aftermarket offering?

The valve guides differ across years. So, the later OEM seal can be used for the early seals, but it rides on the valve, not pressed on the valve guide like you would find on a 2F from later production years. It is the chamfer on the top of the early guides that won't hold the later seal, but, they apparently don't have to so no big deal.

I have non-OEM seals on an early 2F from SOR. They don't have the same kind of coverage that the original ones had. No problem with their install and performance to this point. There were also some Fel-Pro seals that I found for a different head - RockAuto. I've never fired that one up yet, but they have the same coverage as the originals.

So the original valve guides for my engine (10/ or 11/73 build date F.5) supersede to the most current P/Ns for an 8/80-8/87 2F (I looked up an '82 FJ60 because I've been buying parts from a guy parting one out). Post-8/80 is later 2F right (i.e, those valve guides will hold the later seal)?

 

[Grayscale]

I think that the valve guide and valve seal change on 2F was about '76 or '77? I opened up an '82 that had the factory seals that press-on, "positive seal, not deflector seal."

 

[Steamer]

My 5-74 F.5 serial # is F533465 and has domed pistons. I just do not know which other years had them. Stock domed 90mm pistons are NLA. I have not been able to find aftermarket domed 90mm pistons in stock anywhere. I have been meaning to call “THESE” guys to find out if there are domed pistons in their rebuild kits.

I am replacing my lifters as they are damaged on the surface, and they have been resurfaced once before. The sides of the lifters look good as do the bores and they lifted out smoothly without any side-to-side movement. OEM lifters are available @ $32.78 ea. ITM ones @ $12.30 ea.

When I look up valve guides, I get Intake-11122-61011 and Exhaust-11126-61011 and it shows they fit any year between 1969 and 1987. The positive seals came in the later years. They do not tell you that the later seals will work on earlier vehicles, but it’s the same darn guide so… If you look up the ITM positive seals (Rock Auto) you will see the same part number for ITM SS196 fits 1969 through 1987.

My shop installed the ITM seals onto my guides said they fit fine. You can sort of get a peek at them in “THIS” video.

 

[insightbrewery]

I think that the valve guide and valve seal change on 2F was about '76 or '77? I opened up an '82 that had the factory seals that press-on, "positive seal, not deflector seal."

Gotcha, OK I'm convinced - I'll get the new guides and matching Enginetech seals (Viton).

My 5-74 F.5 serial # is F533465 and has domed pistons. I just do not know which other years had them. Stock domed 90mm pistons are NLA. I have not been able to find aftermarket domed 90mm pistons in stock anywhere. I have been meaning to call “THESE”guys to find out if there are domed pistons in their rebuild kits.

I am replacing my lifters as they are damaged on the surface, and they have been resurfaced once before. The sides of the lifters look good as do the bores and they lifted out smoothly without any side-to-side movement. OEM lifters are available @ $32.78 ea. ITM ones @ $12.30 ea.

When I look up valve guides, I get Intake-11122-61011 and Exhaust-11126-61011 and it shows they fit any year between 1969 and 1987. The positive seals came in the later years. They do not tell you that the later seals will work on earlier vehicles, but it’s the same darn guide so… If you look up the ITM positive seals (Rock Auto) you will see the same part number for ITM SS196 fits 1969 through 1987.

My shop installed the ITM seals onto my guides said they fit fine. You can sort of get a peek at them in “THIS”video.

Ah I see. I think I might just get the ITM from RA. None of my lifters lifted more than 2-3mm out with a magnet (next time I'll go at them with spark plug boot pliers) so I suspect they may be warped/mushroomed a bit. They all rotate smoothly, just don't lift past the aforementioned limit.

 

[Steamer]

Ah I see. I think I might just get the ITM from RA. None of my lifters lifted more than 2-3mm out with a magnet (next time I'll go at them with spark plug boot pliers) so I suspect they may be warped/mushroomed a bit. They all rotate smoothly, just don't lift past the aforementioned limit.

The bottom of the lifters extend out of the lifter bores and that portion can get a deposit of crud. The first time I pulled my lifters in 09 it was tough. I drenched them in penetrating oil while doing a rapid up & down movement with the magnet pulling up just enough to not break the grip but enough to hit against the crud to knock it off. It took quite a while and had to take breaks but they finally all came out.

This last time that I pulled them, they all lifted right out. The bottoms were dark gray, but it wiped right off with a finger. I figure it was blow by soot.

 

[Grayscale]

Gotcha, OK I'm convinced - I'll get the new guides and matching Enginetech seals (Viton).

If possible, don't replace your valve guides? I'd don't know how easy it is to crack a head in the process? There must be a serious interference fit that requires impact for removal and install.

I know an old SBC that died from the replacement guide getting loose floating on the valve. The owner always upgraded and changed everything, which usually meant more shake-down than he bargained for. This would happen on a regular basis.

 

[insightbrewery]

The bottom of the lifters extend out of the lifter bores and that portion can get a deposit of crud. The first time I pulled my lifters in 09 it was tough. I drenched them in penetrating oil while doing a rapid up & down movement with the magnet pulling up just enough to not break the grip but enough to hit against the crud to knock it off. It took quite a while and had to take breaks but they finally all came out.

This last time that I pulled them, they all lifted right out. The bottoms were dark gray, but it wiped right off with a finger. I figure it was blow by soot.

Good advice, thanks. After tomorrow's session I'll post pics to show you guys what kind of ridiculous sludging there is in this motor; and also a pic of the camshaft lobe wear. TBH I think with the heavy wear on the lobes the lifters are probably mushroomed instead of sludged but we'll see once I pull them.

If possible, don't replace your valve guides? I'd don't know how easy it is to crack a head in the process? There must be a serious interference fit that requires impact for removal and install.

I know an old SBC that died from the replacement guide getting loose floating on the valve. The owner always upgraded and changed everything, which usually meant more shake-down than he bargained for. This would happen on a regular basis.

Good point, thanks. I figure being an iron head it should be able to take a fair bit of punishment but I'll talk to the machine shop tomorrow and make a decision (I got another head waiting, 2ZR-FE). Worst case I have the new umbrella seals to put in.