Help! She died today and won't turn over -UPDATE it's a spun bearing (1 Viewer)

[gonzopancho]

Only reason grinding the main journals won’t work is if someone already did it once or twice during the past 48 years. Even if that’s the situation, they have ways to build the journal back, and a F engine isn’t a high-rpm or highly-loaded application.

Talk to your machinist. They’ve seen worse.

While you have it apart, have someone with one of those industrial dishwashers (aka “parts cleaner”) run the block, rods and head through it.

Ask about the pistons before you do so. IDK offhand what the high phosphate detergents they use might do to the aluminum. Might just use a soft brush and solvent there.

In any case, get all the finely ground metal out of it.

My grandfather, (not a religious man) once told me, “when assembling an engine, cleanliness is next to godliness.”

My father (his son), later added, “and at a lot of other times, too.”


EDIT: you’re probably going to want to check the cam and cam bearings as well. If they’re not scored, just run them.

Try to keep the followers (lifters) and pushrods in order.

The clearance on the main journals is
set with shims. You’ll want some Plastigauge and you’ll need a set of feeler gauges to check the thrust bearing clearance once it’s in the block.

 

[gonzopancho]

Theoretically possible to do it with block in frame.

Won’t get rid of the shavings like actually washing it out can.

Will be more difficult to rotate the crankshaft to check for smoothness.

Rear main seal could be a PITA with the block in the truck.

 

[Pighead]

Won’t get rid of the shavings like actually washing it out can.

Will be more difficult to rotate the crankshaft to check for smoothness.

Rear main seal could be a PITA with the block in the truck.

It's not ideal, certainly. It could be band aided though, maybe. That crank might need professional help. Even so, still quickest and cheapest.

 

[Cgn1976]

Gotta talk to the engine shop I know of, but if they'll take it on, I'm probably pulling it and letting them do this. If I can manage just the engine pull and install with a little help, I'd feel like I already won. An engine build, even with all the help here is just not something I'm ready to take on.

I realize I'm all over the map here. Lots to process and so much new info! I know I've said it a bunch, but thanks yet again for going along for the ride with me on this, especially whitey and Pancho, and pighead. Not sure I'll ever have enough knowledge to give anywhere near this back to the forum.

 

[Pighead]

A man's got to know his limitations.

 

[bobm]

I read about the mounting hole issue. Good to know on the other items.

I think I read the 4 speed is a few inches longer, so new drives shafts right? I thought I saw something about the clutch salve is on the other side maybe in some or all 2F's? And a cross member issue? ANYWAY...gotta read a LOT more!!!

I will say as I start thinking about all the mods that may or may not be something I can tackle myself, it kind of pushes me back to just re-doing the engine I have. I've gotten pretty used to the HP it has, and don't mind the non-syncro 3 speed, and know it all fits in there as is!

I wouldn't question your abilities!! Look what you just did and found!! Hats off my friend

 

[PabloCruise]

Forgot pics

View attachment 2812469

View attachment 2812470View attachment 2812471

I have been meaning to reply in here...
Since we have most of the Knight's attention in here, I will pose this question, "Any chance this was caused (in part) to the dramatic drop in oil pressure we experience when dropping down to idle?"
I have always been uncomfortable when I get off the interstate and coast down the off-ramp and see the oil pressure gauge keep falling...

 

[PabloCruise]

“And as the sign said in the speed shop when I was a teenager, “Speed costs money, son. How fast do you want to go?”

We had a couple of additional sayings back in my teen age drag racing days.

“Cubic dollars always wins.”

“If it don’t go, chrome it.”

And of course the sign that says, "You can get it done Well, done Fast, done Cheap - Pick 2!"

 

[bobm]

Idiot light or aftermarket gage??? I would trust the latter for any vitals.

 

[greenbeast]

Appreciate the thread and every post. Ton's of good info here and I have learned a ton. Sorry at your expense...

 

[Zjohnsonua]

Friend, you've put in some considerable effort here. I'm glad to see you sussed out the cause of the failure.

I would strongly encourage you to assess what you want your truck to be before you throw a dime at it.

That engine is definitely salvageable, but think over what having the original engine means to you and the truck before trying to save it. You'll be into it for ~$1500 in parts and machine shop work. When you're done, you've got the vintage engine, retained history, and 100hp.

The 2F option is more desirable in my opinion for many reasons. If you go that route, I encourage getting one from a late '84 - '87 model if possible as there was a block change that is driving earlier blocks to be harder to find main bearings for.

 

[gonzopancho]

I have been meaning to reply in here...
Since we have most of the Knight's attention in here, I will pose this question, "Any chance this was caused (in part) to the dramatic drop in oil pressure we experience when dropping down to idle?"
I have always been uncomfortable when I get off the interstate and coast down the off-ramp and see the oil pressure gauge keep falling...

So you're cooking along in 3rd (or 4th) gear and .. 65mph. Right? You don't drive your pig faster than 65mph unless your name is @wngrog or you've got something that isn't a F, 2F or 3F in your pig, right? It's a Land Cruiser, not a Land Speed Racer.

Anyway 65mph, 3rd gear, 33" tires, 4.10:1 gears. Call it 2700 rpm.

You've done 65mph for an hour on I-25 because you live in Ft. Colins, but the company called a meeting in Denver. Everything has gotten good and warm. The oil is hot, and has lost some of it's viscosity. You didn't really notice this, since the gauge shows good oil pressure, likely because the oil pump is still pushing enough oil that you're running against the pressure regulator. This is especially true if you've decided to run a 'high viscosity' oil.

Anyway, you exit I-25 and stop after 300 yards, because there is a stoplight at the end of the on-ramp. The oil is still hot, so viscosity is low. The engine is still hot, so while the heat source (your foot in the throttle) is now minimal, there are a couple hundred pounds of cast iron, aluminum, oil and water that are all well over 200F. The oil is thin, and the oil pump isn't turning very fast (you're at idle).

Your FJ55 is from the 70s, (unless you have the rare bird 67-69 vintage). it uses the tech of the era, including the "gauges" which are really indicators, not calibrated pressure meters. No fancy MEMs-based sensors here, it's all analog, with very little in the way of conditioning or protection circuitry. They run on the same 12V that runs your headlights. The 12VDC is supplied to the gauge, while the ground is at the sensor. A current passes through a wire-wound coil mounted within the needle's pivot and produces a magnetic field that moves the needle across the calibrated scale of the gauge. How far across the scale the needle goes - what reading it yields - depends on how much current flows through the gauge. This in turn depends on the resistance of the gauge's return wire which is again, grounded to the engine block through the sensor.

This is why if you managed to touch the wire that goes to the oil pressure sender straight to ground, your gauge will no longer work. The tiny wires in the coil in the gauge were never built to handle the current you just allowed through the gauge, and you now have an open in the coil and the gauge no longer works.

The resistance of the sensor depends on the oil pressure. Oil enters the end of the sensor which is screwed into the engine block and pushes against a diaphragm . The diaphragm moves a wiper inside the sensor which runs up or down a blade of known resistance this blade is connected to the return wire from the gauge. The more the diaphragm moves under pressure, the further down the resistance blade the wiper moves. So the resistance of the sensor varies with oil pressure and the needle of the gauge moves accordingly.

If you have an indicator ("idiot") light, then the circuit largely works the same way, except the 'sender' is really a switch. With enough (oil) pressure, it stays open, and the light is not lit.

You've been cruising (cruising, right?) down I-25, with the alternator happily making as many amps as everything in the truck needs, but now you're idling, so there isn't quite as much current available. Voltage drops some, and resistance is up because everything is hot, and that's just how things are. Hot wires and devices have more resistance. This is also true of the oil pressure sender. These things also conspire to show a slightly lower reading on the indicator/gauge.

You have a few 100,000 miles on the engine, so the journal clearances are not like they were when new. This permits a lot more of the oil to pass right back out the main and rod journals. Fortunately, it doesn't take much oil pressure to support the journals at low rpm. 10psi will do it up to about 1,000 rpm. But 10 PSI looks *really low* on a gauge without numbers. I can't find any metrology but I'd bet the FJ40/FJ55 oil pressure indicator shows around 7.5 PSI at the 'L' mark.

Oh, and that 200,000 plus miles have also put a bit of wear on the oil pump, so it's not quite as efficient at idle as it was when new. IDK if replacement vanes are available these days, but one used to be able to turn the non-driven gear over in a straight-6 chevy if you couldn't afford to replace the pump or gears. Check around page 120-121 of the FSM posted earlier. @Cgn1976 will probably want to look the oil pump (and pressure regulator) over while it's all apart.

Back to the oil pressure regulator, which serves as a type of "safety valve" preventing the high pressure oil discharged from the oil pump to rise above a specified value by means of the adjusting valve. When the pressure is "too high" you can wash the bearings, leading to premature wear. Like any other mechanical part, it can wear, and if it fails to properly close, then more oil gets dumped back in the pan, and less is available for the main bearings, and subsequently rod bearings, camshaft bearings, and the rest of the engine.

This is especially true of the 'F' engine, and its oil pressure regulator. There is a pretty good writeup here: Oil Pressure Regulator - http://www.globalsoftware-inc.com/coolerman/fj40/30C.htm

@Cgn1976 probably wants to go through the oil pressure regulator while he has the engine disassembled.

 

[abqcruiser]

Pilot done w clutch.

Getting my head around pulling an engine for the first time...btw, I think you alsed before, I do have concrete and think I have the room to do it. Gonna require some extra effort with the width of the space, the house right there and it being up my sloped driveway. How I get it down the hill or a truck up there to get the pulled engine will be a challenge

I can help you pull the engine. After that, you can disassemble it in the driveway to make it easier to get everything to the machine shop. Of course putting the reassembled engine back in at your place will take some doing. If you use Empire Engines maybe they can reinstall it.

 

[gonzopancho]

around Episodes 18 and 19

pretty good overview of what it takes to reassemble the engine.

I laughed at the flip flops.

 

[Cgn1976]

Friend, you've put in some considerable effort here. I'm glad to see you sussed out the cause of the failure.

I would strongly encourage you to assess what you want your truck to be before you throw a dime at it.

That engine is definitely salvageable, but think over what having the original engine means to you and the truck before trying to save it. You'll be into it for ~$1500 in parts and machine shop work. When you're done, you've got the vintage engine, retained history, and 100hp.

The 2F option is more desirable in my opinion for many reasons. If you go that route, I encourage getting one from a late '84 - '87 model if possible as there was a block change that is driving earlier blocks to be harder to find main bearings for.

Thanks for the thoughts here. After spending a year with the truck pretty much stock other than the wheels and tires, I can say I'm fine with the HP and 3 speed for now. Never wanted it to be a daily driver, or a serious off roader. I can get around my local area with it, and there are some amazing mountain backroads for slow cruising and the occasional little dirt romp close to home. I'm not a purist in that I need it 100% stock (again wheels, tires, power steering conversion and my plaid interior).

Now if I had a money tree, I'd probably do my electric conversion right now, but I'm guessing that would easily push over $25k at this point in time since I can't do it myself. $10k plus for V8, vs just keeping the original or a 2f for now? I just don't have the skills or location to be able to do the custom work needed for aV8, and maybe not even for a 2F, so I think I lean back to the F, for $1500ish. I might have some money left over towards the lift or eventually AC I want.

 

[Cgn1976]

I can help you pull the engine. After that, you can disassemble it in the driveway to make it easier to get everything to the machine shop. Of course putting the reassembled engine back in at your place will take some doing. If you use Empire Engines maybe they can reinstall it.

Think I'm gonna have some hours after work tonight while the wife is at a work event to start the part pulling and get this removal going. Last we spoke you didn't have a hoist but I think you said you do now? I can buy one at H.F. or craigslist easy enough if not. Once I get to the point of total confusion or ready for a pull, I'm sure I'll take you up on that help with the rig up to the hoist and actual pull. Just not sure about it once I get to that point! They only show you so much on TV

 

[Cgn1976]

So you're cooking along in 3rd (or 4th) gear and .. 65mph. Right? You don't drive your pig faster than 65mph unless your name is @wngrog or you've got something that isn't a F, 2F or 3F in your pig, right? It's a Land Cruiser, not a Land Speed Racer.

Anyway 65mph, 3rd gear, 33" tires, 4.10:1 gears. Call it 2700 rpm.

You've done 65mph for an hour on I-25 because you live in Ft. Colins, but the company called a meeting in Denver. Everything has gotten good and warm. The oil is hot, and has lost some of it's viscosity. You didn't really notice this, since the gauge shows good oil pressure, likely because the oil pump is still pushing enough oil that you're running against the pressure regulator. This is especially true if you've decided to run a 'high viscosity' oil.

Anyway, you exit I-25 and stop after 300 yards, because there is a stoplight at the end of the on-ramp. The oil is still hot, so viscosity is low. The engine is still hot, so while the heat source (your foot in the throttle) is now minimal, there are a couple hundred pounds of cast iron, aluminum, oil and water that are all well over 200F. The oil is thin, and the oil pump isn't turning very fast (you're at idle).

Your FJ55 is from the 70s, (unless you have the rare bird 67-69 vintage). it uses the tech of the era, including the "gauges" which are really indicators, not calibrated pressure meters. No fancy MEMs-based sensors here, it's all analog, with very little in the way of conditioning or protection circuitry. They run on the same 12V that runs your headlights. The 12VDC is supplied to the gauge, while the ground is at the sensor. A current passes through a wire-wound coil mounted within the needle's pivot and produces a magnetic field that moves the needle across the calibrated scale of the gauge. How far across the scale the needle goes - what reading it yields - depends on how much current flows through the gauge. This in turn depends on the resistance of the gauge's return wire which is again, grounded to the engine block through the sensor.

This is why if you managed to touch the wire that goes to the oil pressure sender straight to ground, your gauge will no longer work. The tiny wires in the coil in the gauge were never built to handle the current you just allowed through the gauge, and you now have an open in the coil and the gauge no longer works.

The resistance of the sensor depends on the oil pressure. Oil enters the end of the sensor which is screwed into the engine block and pushes against a diaphragm . The diaphragm moves a wiper inside the sensor which runs up or down a blade of known resistance this blade is connected to the return wire from the gauge. The more the diaphragm moves under pressure, the further down the resistance blade the wiper moves. So the resistance of the sensor varies with oil pressure and the needle of the gauge moves accordingly.

If you have an indicator ("idiot") light, then the circuit largely works the same way, except the 'sender' is really a switch. With enough (oil) pressure, it stays open, and the light is not lit.

You've been cruising (cruising, right?) down I-25, with the alternator happily making as many amps as everything in the truck needs, but now you're idling, so there isn't quite as much current available. Voltage drops some, and resistance is up because everything is hot, and that's just how things are. Hot wires and devices have more resistance. This is also true of the oil pressure sender. These things also conspire to show a slightly lower reading on the indicator/gauge.

You have a few 100,000 miles on the engine, so the journal clearances are not like they were when new. This permits a lot more of the oil to pass right back out the main and rod journals. Fortunately, it doesn't take much oil pressure to support the journals at low rpm. 10psi will do it up to about 1,000 rpm. But 10 PSI looks *really low* on a gauge without numbers. I can't find any metrology but I'd bet the FJ40/FJ55 oil pressure indicator shows around 7.5 PSI at the 'L' mark.

Oh, and that 200,000 plus miles have also put a bit of wear on the oil pump, so it's not quite as efficient at idle as it was when new. IDK if replacement vanes are available these days, but one used to be able to turn the non-driven gear over in a straight-6 chevy if you couldn't afford to replace the pump or gears. Check around page 120-121 of the FSM posted earlier. @Cgn1976 will probably want to look the oil pump (and pressure regulator) over while it's all apart.

Back to the oil pressure regulator, which serves as a type of "safety valve" preventing the high pressure oil discharged from the oil pump to rise above a specified value by means of the adjusting valve. When the pressure is "too high" you can wash the bearings, leading to premature wear. Like any other mechanical part, it can wear, and if it fails to properly close, then more oil gets dumped back in the pan, and less is available for the main bearings, and subsequently rod bearings, camshaft bearings, and the rest of the engine.

This is especially true of the 'F' engine, and its oil pressure regulator. There is a pretty good writeup here: Oil Pressure Regulator - http://www.globalsoftware-inc.com/coolerman/fj40/30C.htm

@Cgn1976 probably wants to go through the oil pressure regulator while he has the engine disassembled.

Did you said you're software guy now (maybe I'm confusing posters?) You must have a photographic memory and with a hell of a lot of info in there!

 

[Cgn1976]

Just hit the phone and the recommended shop in town said they won't build F's anymore. Too much trouble...Said they'd do the machine work, but won't assemble it. Has me think if these guys won't do it, I sure as hell shouldn't be doing it myself! He said they do a lot of 2F' and have 3 sitting there right now they just wrapped.

Guess I'll call around more but maybe Mark's 2F is back in play after all. 2f with my 3 speed would require less mod than 4 speed and transfer change. Again, I don't hate the 3 speed

 

[abqcruiser]

Just hit the phone and the recommended shop in town said they won't build F's anymore. Too much trouble...Said they'd do the machine work, but won't assemble it. Has me think if these guys won't do it, I sure as hell shouldn't be doing it myself! He said they do a lot of 2F' and have 3 sitting there right now they just wrapped.

Guess I'll call around more but maybe Mark's 2F is back in play after all. 2f with my 3 speed would require less mod than 4 speed and transfer change. Again, I don't hate the 3 speed

If this is Empire Engines that you spoke to, ask them if they can still get domed pistons for the earlier 2f's. I found some aftermarket ones .020 oversize by ITM, but it's an old link, so who knows if they're still available.
By the way, I do have an engine hoist that you can borrow.

 

[Cgn1976]

If this is Empire Engines that you spoke to, ask them if they can still get domed pistons for the earlier 2f's. I found some aftermarket ones .020 oversize by ITM, but it's an old link, so who knows if they're still available.
By the way, I do have an engine hoist that you can borrow.

It was Empire. Called back. Says they have 8 sets on the shelf, lol. He said they do all Classics Cruisers builds from up in CO. 2 months out, but getting it there and in line may push that up some. Let me know when a good time to talk on the phone is.