Driving Through Fire / Vehicle Mods for Fire Resistance (1 Viewer)

[jaymar]

Does it make sense to look at possible vehicle modifications for fire resistance?

So, watching Bring Your Own Brigade, fire doc by a 2x Oscar nominee. Lot of cars burned in traffic jams on small roads through wooded areas around Paradise. Lot of 911 callers being told "We have no one to send to you." Of course, with a Cruiser, you could maybe get out without the road, if your timing was good and the cards fell your way. At any rate, this kind of situation isn't going away anytime soon, so it's something to think about for those who live or dwell in the woods. Some of those folks had a few minutes' warning, some had zip. A few questions for those more familiar with such things than I am...

At what point does the too-hot, expanded, oxygen-poor air of a nearby or surrounding fire significantly diminish engine power?

Can it kill the engine completely, by starving it of oxygen or in some other way? (Obviously I don't mean by incinerating the vehicle.)

What kind of heat can E-rated steel radials take before melting or exploding? I assume they go before alloy rims?

How about window glass?

How long can you run through a burning area before the cooling system can't dump enough heat keep the engine from frying? Presumably an air temp of 230 or so will neutralize the cooling system? This assuming the hoses or the radiator fins don't melt first.

Will a live power line on the body kill the engine?

What are the other most-vulnerable hazards? At some point, brake lines and fuel lines/tank will go. Does that happen before the interior starts spewing noxious fumes, or is it Don't-sweat-the-windows-you'll-be-dead-by-then?

Anything I'm missing?

Basically, how long can you play with fire and survive--moving fast or slow? Obviously a lot of variables here--road with fire on both sides; trying to punch through an offroad hot zone in the trees; maybe trying to hang in a field, jumping the fire line until it burns through the field; etc.--but what are your thoughts on this? (Other than don't get caught in a fire.)

Anything we can do to enhance survivability?

All of it assuming you can see, can breathe, and the air filter isn't done or burning.

Some quick research says normal atmospheric O2 level is 21%, and 19.5-23% is ideal for humans. Drop to 16 or 17% and you're mentally and physically impaired. The lower it goes, the worse you get. At 4-6%, you're gone in 40 seconds, even if you're not physically active. I'm not finding that kind of info on car engines (not with a quick search, anyway); it's all about gas-to-O2 ratio, in grams...

Btw, searching 'driving through a forest fire' brings up some interesting stuff on YouTube...

 

[Irish Reiver]

Isn't this a bit like asking "during a hurricane, how big of a tree can fall on my truck before I die". Hurricanes don't just happen all of a sudden and when you evacuate you don't tend to drive towards them. I am sure the same is true for forest fires. Accurate tracking of the fire direction, wind speed etc are more important so you can make decisions to evacuate in the right direction and in a timely manner. I don't want to sound flippant - I know lots of people have perished in some of these fires (and hurricanes). I have experienced both and the difficulties kicked in when people didn't want to evacuate or left it too late - people can be reluctant to leave their property.

 

[leonard_nemoy]

Defensible Space........

 

[Azca]

The closest I can come to answering this question is from a forest fire we had when we lived in the Flagstaff area. When I first arrived, there were only two trucks on the scene about 1/4 mile from my home. Fairly calm day but it was dry. As soon as the fire reaches the crown of the trees, it will advance rapidly, even without wind. It will "jump" roads and even hundreds of yards with no warning.

Any way, right as I ran up to the first forest service engine with a shovel to help, the driver was on the loud horn screaming at the first engine. He had raced onto a property trying to save a home. He was so focused on what was in front of him, he did not realize he was almost completely encircled by the flames. As soon as he finally recognized the situation he dropped the hose and backed out as quickly as he could.

I assume the engine was running for the pump system but, when he finally got back to where we were, perhaps 150 to 200 feet away, we noticed the emergency lights on top of his rig had begun to melt. They were not dripping but had partially formed around the rotating mirrors. (showing my age here). This was also at 7,000 feet. So, it would have to be pretty hot to starve the engine enough to cause it to shut down.

 

[Pierce]

Here’s an “it worked this time” example. Try searching the net for fire department brush trucks in action to see how they operate and what they can survive through. They are usually diesel which has a much high flash point than gas but it’ll give you an idea.

Chances are you’ll be long dead before the fuel in your tank becomes an issue. Vehicles burn like Roman candles when they start.

Im no expert but I’d put money on your tires first and then the electrical system failing due to shorting.

California Wildfire Hero Gives Toyota Tundra a 'Hot' New Look to Honor Fallen Truck - https://www.thedrive.com/news/28635/california-wildfire-hero-gives-toyota-tundra-a-hot-new-look-to-honor-fallen-truck you before the mechanical components

California Wildfire Hero Gives Toyota Tundra a 'Hot' New Look to Honor Fallen Truck

Toyota gifted Allyn Pierce a brand-new Tundra after his was destroyed while rescuing people during California's worst wildfire to date.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Azca]

Isn't this a bit like asking "during a hurricane, how big of a tree can fall on my truck before I die". Hurricanes don't just happen all of a sudden and when you evacuate you don't tend to drive towards them. I am sure the same is true for forest fires. Accurate tracking of the fire direction, wind speed etc are more important so you can make decisions to evacuate in the right direction and in a timely manner. I don't want to sound flippant - I know lots of people have perished in some of these fires (and hurricanes). I have experienced both and the difficulties kicked in when people didn't want to evacuate or left it too late - people can be reluctant to leave their property.

Not necessarily. In my described post above, the fire started near a residential community (Parks Arizona). The only reason I knew of the fire was because I was walking back from our general store and had these two fire trucks race by me at well over 70 MPH which indicated that they were either late for lunch or there was a fire somewhere. I rounded a bend a minute later to see the smoke rising near our home. I ran home, let my mother know and then ran to the fire to help. Neighbors were not home.

There was no time to warn the residents, the fire, within a span of just 5 minutes was already encircling homes. Luckily, the ones this happened to, no one was home. It was only because of the rapid response of the forest service that the fire was contained so quickly. The FS was just pulling off a 2,000 acre blaze about 20 miles away and could reallocate resources quickly. In fact, within 20 minutes they had a slurry bomber responding. (quite another fun story there as well, all I can tell you is you don't want to get hit with it!).

Also, clearing a zone around your property will help provided the fire does not crown. Once it is in the tree canopy, no amount of defensible space is going to protect your property. While standing back a couple hundred yards from the actual fire, where the commander had set up, my mother watched as one of the ponderosas literally exploded in flames. Within seconds the fire had breached the cinder road and ditches to the other side, about 50 feet. I was actually given a hose and asked to take it as far into the woods as I could to attempt to create a line. Similar thing happened to me while on the line, but I could not see it when the wind shifted, heck I could not even breath for what seemed like a minute. It ignited the trees about 75 feet behind me and had also hit the ground.

Unless you live in area where there has been significant thinning of the forest, there is little an individual can do except evacuate. Have a plan, know what you are going to grab because you may only have moments, if that, to get out.

 

[BILT4ME]

Read about the guy in the Tacoma that raced through burning roads last year. Toyota replaced his truck.

That may provide some input.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Btw, searching 'driving through a forest fire' brings up some interesting stuff on YouTube...

There's some incredible footage of Aussie Rural Fire Service crews caught in wildfire conditions in Dec 2019, Jan 2020 on YouTube.

Footage of side mirrors literally melting off the side of the truck, crews using fire blankets to shield themselves from radiant heat coming through glass. True lucky to be alive scenario.


Loss of engine power is probably the least of your worries IMO. There'll be loads of other ways shït would go tits up before this was a problem.

 

[jaymar]

Isn't this a bit like asking "during a hurricane, how big of a tree can fall on my truck before I die". Hurricanes don't just happen all of a sudden and when you evacuate you don't tend to drive towards them. I am sure the same is true for forest fires. Accurate tracking of the fire direction, wind speed etc are more important so you can make decisions to evacuate in the right direction and in a timely manner. I don't want to sound flippant - I know lots of people have perished in some of these fires (and hurricanes). I have experienced both and the difficulties kicked in when people didn't want to evacuate or left it too late - people can be reluctant to leave their property.

True as far as it goes, but the new-normal fires are not like the old-normal fires. I keep seeing firefighters say "I've never seen anything like it." We could get into why that is--Eurocentric management policies applying damp-climate logic to a west that was dry to begin with and is now a tinderbox of built-up fuel because small fires are killed before they can clear it out and prescribed burns don't happen, creating megafire conditions but...

Paradise for instance. The thing moved incredibly fast. Drought-dry fuel, low humidity, high winds driving literally billions of embers that caused a situation where you've got ember-lit fires starting in hundreds of separate locations at the same time. So, zero warning and one road out. Trees and power lines down. Every house is burning and all directions are f*cked, some more than others. If you want to plan for worst-case, that's pretty much it. Could happen like that anywhere it's dry enough. Paradise actually had a reasonable evacuation plan, but it couldn't handle a no-warning situation, where EVERYone hit the road at the same time. No place can handle that. Common factor in survivor stories: "No one told us this was coming."

So, sure, avoid it if you can, check weather reports, scan the skies--but you gotta sleep sometime. Plan for the worst.

 

[gilmorneau]

Accurate tracking of the fire direction, wind speed etc are more important so you can make decisions to evacuate in the right direction and in a timely manner.

As others have implied, you're assuming fires move more slowly and predictably then they actually do. Hurricanes, sure, forecasts are days out and anyone in the potential path should be prepared to evacuate. But a forest fire in a dry and windy area can explode into an inferno in minutes. I saw this for myself on Labor Day, 2010. I was heading into the Home Depot, walking across the parking lot, and I thought I saw what might be a wisp of smoke in the Boulder foothills. When I walked out of Home Depot minutes later, there was an apocalyptic scene in the foothills--enormous plumes of smoke, miles wide and high. By the time I drove to my house in North Boulder (maybe 3 miles, a 10 minute drive), it was raining ash and embers in my neighborhood, and the smoke was thick enough to make it difficult to see the house across the street. The fire itself was probably 10 miles or so to the West. I grabbed a few things, closed some windows (to keep the smoke out) and bailed. I doubt an hour had elapsed since I first saw the wisp of smoke. The fire was the Fourmile Canyon fire. 169 homes destroyed in a day.

 

[jaymar]

Defensible Space........

In the doc mentioned above, there's a post-fire meeting of Paradise survivors, where preventive measures are discussed with the fire chief, mayor and town council or whatever. Things are explained very well, and FIVE FEET of defensible space around buildings is put forth as the single most important measure that can be taken. The townsfolk don't like it, and the mayor and council vote it down while the fire chief sits there looking fit to be tied. (Elsewhere he says they came THIS close to losing 3,000+ people in that fire). Man, I like trees, but even I can live with five freakin' feet, at least on new construction--which damn near everything in that area now is...

 

[retrofive]

Can happen anywhere; look at the Almeda fire that took out Talent and Phoenix OR right in the urban area and I5 corridor.

 

[ppc]

This thread needs to be moved to chat

 

[jaymar]

This thread needs to be moved to chat

How about vehicle modifications for fire resistance?

 

[DivByZero]

I've had some close calls here in Australia. I've driven on roads cut by fire. My only advice: avoid getting in that situation in the first place. There are just too many variables. You can't make a vehicle "safe" to drive through fire. You just can't. If the fire is moving really fast and roars over you like a freight train, you might get away with it if you can turn into the fire. The heat though. You can't appreciate just how much radiant heat we're talking about. A good solid mechanical diesel 4x4 with nice thick tyres (like the HZJ80) would give it a good go, but just because your car can survive going through the flames doesn't mean you can.

Someone else here mentioned some YouTube videos from the Aussie RFS. I'd check some of those out, to get a picture of what we're talking about.

 

[jaymar]

Yeah, well, if nothing else the glass will screw you on the heat. I was thinking more of shielding fluid hoses, possibly some kind of on-the-fly snorkel air filter swap or removal (assuming the thing doesn't just melt; then again, some are metal). I mean, if we really want to get wild, foil window covers, windshield too, and drive by radar.

Technically, aircraft radar has crap resolution for ground-level driving, and LiDAR uses infrared, which will be crap in a fire. But there's gotta be SOMETHING that would work (assuming it can take the heat), like that or in goggle form (if looking out through the windshield). Would be useful in less extreme circumstances as well; driving through smoke.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

I think you're wasting your time even thinking about this: At what temperature does a forest fire burn? - https://wildfiretoday.com/2011/02/26/at-what-temperature-does-a-forest-fire-burn/

Automotive glass won't make it; your tires won't make it; and you won't make it. Why worry about hoses?

 

[DivByZero]

It really depends on whether you're talking about driving along a road that's had a fire front already cross it, or if you're talking about driving through a fire front itself. The former is possible. The latter is almost certain death. I've driven roads where the trees are all alight around me, embers are flying everywhere, and it's lit up in a hazy red glow all around you. It's scary as s***, but a lot of the danger by that point has passed. When a fire front sweeps through and the dry, easily computable stuff basically explodes around you through, it's pretty much as close to the fires of hell as you'll get. It's hard to find videos of firefronts hitting, because people and/or recording equipment doesn't tend to survive, but check this out:



Basically, you're screwed.

 

[DivByZero]

I thought I'd add a few tips. If you're trapped by a fire, the best place to be is inside a building. Not in a car. Here in Australia, it's drilled into us not to try and outrun a fire. The RFS notifies people when it's "too late to leave". At that point you shelter in place, preferably at a designated refuge. Some people voluntarily choose to stay and defend their properties. The strategies are simple: you prepare your property as best as you can, then shelter inside while the fire front passes over. This usually happens quickly. Then you go out and put out the fires. Houses don't burn to the ground when fires hit, they catch alight, and burn down after the main fire has passed. It's not at all uncommon to hear of people with water tanks on the back of utes going round frantically trying to save properties. Hats off to them. My own property has never been hit by a fire, but on four separate occasions I've been involved in efforts to defend properties of friends and relatives.

And if you actually want to know sensible ways to prepare your property from fires, follow the information from Aussie services. I can't understand some of the bizarre decisions made on forest management state side. Here, we let fires burn unless they're a threat to properties, backburn in the off seasons to prevent fuel build-up, and have strong regulations about clearing rules, building requirements, and safe distances on properties in fire prone areas. We still have stupid councils approving new developments in areas that have burned 5 times in the last 30 years, but at least there's some rational advice to be found among the lunacy.

 

[elhombre]

When in a house fire, we have a real hard time getting chainsaws to run due to the lack of oxygen, and quickly clogged up air filters. But mainly lack of Oxygen. Of course, those are gasoline engines. I would think our gasoline consuming cruisers could have a real hard time too if you drove through extra dense smoke that had the Oxygen already consumed out of it by the fire. Most all fire trucks are diesel, and I think that is the real difference. Diesels can keep running in much more "diverse" conditions compared to gasoline. I think this is one of those situations that once find out you pushed it too far, you are REALLY screwed!