Would You Buy a Diesel 200? (1 Viewer)

[kendrickdlr]

North America is obviously a niche market for the 200-series considering Toyota only sells 200-300 of them a month. Understandably, Toyota sells only the 5.7l V8 version here because that's what the market wants (we love our petrol) ... But, I think they're miscalculating.

I imagine they think the take rate of a diesel option would be somewhere less than 10%. If it were any higher, they would offer it because they'd actually make more money by doing so. Now I have no idea what their margins are, but if we're going off what manufacturers usually expect when offering more than one powertrain, any take rate above 10% seems to be sufficient enough.

That being said, I honestly think the take rate for a diesel LC here would be around 30-35%. When scrutinizing the demographics of the people who buy LCs, the average buyer tends to be a wealthy educated man with an income of $250k/yr. In other words, people who buy LCs know what they are buying when they buy an LC. Normal people who walk into a dealership and see a Land Cruiser probably wonder why that Highlander-looking thing costs $85k but when narrowing things down, the average buyer tends to be an enthusiast!

Am I missing something here? I mean, what do I know? Maybe I'm a little delusional, but I'd definitely advocate a diesel NA200.

 

[silverfstop]

Honestly, it really depends on how the diesel engine drives and how the pollution controls function. Personally I won't drive a dirty diesel - I'm a big fan of the great outdoors and that's why I want to spend time money and effort visiting it. NFW I'll consider a polluter. Period.

Coming from a TDi VW product and AdBlu, I can tell you that AdBlu is both a hassle, and a major weak spot in the system (on VW product if the AdBlu runs out or fails, the car won't start).

LC's are purchased by two customers in NA: Soccer Moms, and Mudders who buy them second hand from Soccer Moms. SM's have no interest in the diesel pump, however they might be swayed my MPG. Mudders care about cruising range and reliability. I would be suspect of anything that would make the drivetrain more complex or less reliable might discourage Mudders.

It's also worth pointing out that the diesel clatter at idle (and low speeds) becomes annoying after a while. I drive one of the quieter TDi drivetrains and idling in traffic can be wearing at times - which is all the time in 4Lo on the trail.

 

[ckkone]

I’d probably buy a used one after about 5-8 years of depreciation.

 

[Markuson]

If they offered diesels as part of their regular stock? Heck ya!

I would be hesitant to buy one imported from elsewhere, though...but only because Toyota doesn't have the service/supply lines in place here to support it.

 

[sethro]

considering the twin turbo V8 diesel available in Australia gets almost 28mpg on the highway...I'd be all in.

Don't ever be scared of non-USA toyota stuff...we've got a Beno for that.

 

[Chocolate]

Toyota rep confirmed that it will never happen.

 

[Milaad]

I plan on keeping my truck forever until the diesel version comes

 

[Markuson]

considering the twin turbo V8 diesel available in Australia gets almost 28mpg on the highway...I'd be all in.

Don't ever be scared of non-USA toyota stuff...we've got a Beno for that.

Ya... Just thinking practicality. Beno is a great resource. But when you break something in some odd town somewhere, it's nice to know Toyota USA will have the part no more than a day away in most cases. Would love it if they supported the big D's here. Just wish it was readily available & supported. It ain't.

 

[NMNORSSE]

I'd trade mine in for one after the diesel engine had been in the Tundra for 5 years or so, to get the bugs worked out.

 

[HDJdreams]

I'd trade mine in for one after the diesel engine had been in the Tundra for 5 years or so, to get the bugs worked out.

Ditto! I LOVE my diesel Ram, but one thing I love about the 200 over the 80 is it shares almost all of its drivetrain with the mass production Tundra.

That’s my biggest frustration with the 1FZ, fine engine but very few in US! Making aftermarket/tuning almost non existent and parts/ knowledgeable rebuilders rare. With its very low US sales, a 200 specific engine would be more expensive than gold.

My brother has an 06 CRD Jeep Liberty, he loved it while it ran, perfect 4x4 engine, but it was impossible to get service and parts. He had a local shop attempt to work on it, something went wrong now it’s dead in his garage. Despite not being able to be sold in several states because of emissions, it was a big hit selling 11,000 units more than twice as many as Jeep planned. They had issues with the US spec emissions systems, they weren’t tested enough before production.

While Toyota generally has far higher quality, point is how many YEARS would it take to sell 11,000 diesel 200s in US? If the Tundra also had the diesel, parts and service would be a nonissue.

 

[TonyP]

considering the twin turbo V8 diesel available in Australia gets almost 28mpg on the highway...I'd be all in.

Don't ever be scared of non-USA toyota stuff...we've got a Beno for that.

According to this guy, almost 23.

Toyota VD Engine - Wikipedia

But still a lot better than 14-ish.

That being said the 3UR makes 113hp more but 78 less torque than the 1VD. Add in a supercharger and the 3UR makes 236hp/71tq more than the 1VD. The 3UR is no slouch. Just the range sucks, hard. Granted, this is peak hp/tq.

 

[Sandroad]

I like the idea of the potentially greater efficiency and longer range of a diesel, a lot. I also like the end of following smoky, stinky diesels down the road, in both passenger vehicles and trucks as clean diesels come on line. I don’t like the much higher initial cost and I don’t think Toyota is capable of providing service for diesels in any vehicle in their dealerships. (But I admit my starting point for that is a low opinion of dealer service.) In the N.A. market, Toyota is just not there yet, and may not ever be given their commitment to electric vehicles in one form or another. The 5.7L gasser is a fantastic engine for the Land Cruiser and the range problem could be solved with a 38 gallon gas tank like the Tundra has now. On the other hand, I suppose Toyota is capable of screwing up the future Land Cruiser with a tiny super/turbo charged gas engine that will have to wind out to 10,000 rpm to develop some HP and in that case, I would rather have a diesel! Overall, I hope manufacturers continue the strong trend toward electrification with hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and full electric vehicles. The Land Cruiser may not be a candidate for that, but not every vehicle needs to be.

 

[TeCKis300]

North America is obviously a niche market for the 200-series considering Toyota only sells 200-300 of them a month. Understandably, Toyota sells only the 5.7l V8 version here because that's what the market wants (we love our petrol) ... But, I think they're miscalculating.

I imagine they think the take rate of a diesel option would be somewhere less than 10%. If it were any higher, they would offer it because they'd actually make more money by doing so. Now I have no idea what their margins are, but if we're going off what manufacturers usually expect when offering more than one powertrain, any take rate above 10% seems to be sufficient enough.

That being said, I honestly think the take rate for a diesel LC here would be around 30-35%. When scrutinizing the demographics of the people who buy LCs, the average buyer tends to be a wealthy educated man with an income of $250k/yr. In other words, people who buy LCs know what they are buying when they buy an LC. Normal people who walk into a dealership and see a Land Cruiser probably wonder why that Highlander-looking thing costs $85k but when narrowing things down, the average buyer tends to be an enthusiast!

Am I missing something here? I mean, what do I know? Maybe I'm a little delusional, but I'd definitely advocate a diesel NA200.

I actually firmly disagree with this assessment. Toyota is actually much smarter than we're giving them credit for. What we think we want, sometimes is not really what we want.

Consider the actual diesel being offered to the rest of world - 1VD-FTV, rated at 268hp and 480 tq. The only, and I mean only standout features of this motor over the gas 3UR-FE (381 hp, 401 lb·ft), is torque and efficiency. The torque number is not significantly larger such that it would honestly make that much of a difference, because the gas motor has the advantage of gearing and a much broader rpm band to work with. Which gets into HP. HP is what does the work after all, and in this case, it's a rather huge difference. Contrary to popular belief, hp is what makes those 0-60, 1/4, and pulling power up a hill. A gas motor may need some more rpm pulling up a hill, but it would win the race pulling up a hill every time. By a considerable margin. The 3UR-FE is a smooth, sweet sounding motor, so let her sing.

Now consider the negatives about diesel.

It's a heavier powerplant that makes considerably less hp. All straight line speed performance number would be much lower. All dynamic handling performance numbers will suffer. Considering it's reviews against comparable platforms (though I don't truly believe there's much comparable), this won't help it's case. Not to mention urea. Did you know the gas 3UR-FE is an Ultra Low Emission powerplant? That matters in the states.

- With the recent VW/Audi/Porsche diesel scandal, yeah, no way will Toyota bother.
- Toyota does not have a single diesel model. Not going to introduce diesel on the LC, which is already a niche model in their lineup

Not saying the diesel model doesn't make sense. It has a useful niche. Probably applicable to some people on these boards. And certainly applicable to a greater audience in Australia and Middle East. But that's not the popular audience in the US. Where relatively high speed freeways, smooth roads, and lots of infrastructure lie. HP is king here.

We may see hybrid or EV torque applied to future models of the LC, before we'll see diesel. Ever experience EV torque, that's where it's at.

Now what we really need is a standard long range tank on the gas model!!!

 

[sethro]

According to this guy, almost 23.

Toyota VD Engine - Wikipedia

But still a lot better than 14-ish.

That being said the 3UR makes 113hp more but 78 less torque than the 1VD. Add in a supercharger and the 3UR makes 236hp/71tq more than the 1VD. The 3UR is no slouch. Just the range sucks, hard. Granted, this is peak hp/tq.

I was just doing a google conversion from the spec page toyota of australia's website. No biggie.
Regardless, I'd still be 100% in for a diesel 200. I've converted an 80 to diesel (4BTA-rattle rattle rattle..) and now drive a 62 with a 1HZ+T. I'm slightly biased, admittedly.

seth

 

[ohsix]

I drove diesel pickups for years and I'm in no hurry to buy another one. 9 out of 10 diesel pumps are nasty in my experience. DEF is a pain and seems to always need refilling at the most inopportune times.

I'm the rare buyer that bought a new Land Cruiser to DD and take offroad. Not the kind of rock crawling some of you do, but the kind that requires 4wd and a smooth ride is a nice bonus. My biggest complaint about the Land Cruiser is range. I don't really want to deal with gas cans, and they can be avoided in my travels, but it does require some extra forethought and often filling up with 1/2 a tank. I would much rather Toyota offer a larger fuel tank than another engine option.

 

[EPUro2019]

I owned a BMW 5 series diesel - I absolutely loved that engine. 40mpg while going 85mph. A range of 700 miles. Simply an amazing engine and very clean. The urea tank lasted 10000 mi - basically fill it about once a year. It was never a hassle. Yes, the car wouldn't start if it ran out but it warns you when you get close to being empty. Honestly I never worried about it. I would absolutely love a diesel in the LC. I don't think they will ever bring it to the US. A Tundra diesel has been talked about forever and that doesn't seem to be close so I can't imagine they will bring the LC diesel here anytime soon or ever.

 

[40Man]

Yes,

I actually firmly disagree with this assessment. Toyota is actually much smarter than we're giving them credit for. What we think we want, sometimes is not really what we want.

Consider the actual diesel being offered to the rest of world - 1VD-FTV, rated at 268hp and 480 tq. The only, and I mean only standout features of this motor over the gas 3UR-FE (381 hp, 401 lb·ft), is torque and efficiency. The torque number is not significantly larger such that it would honestly make that much of a difference, because the gas motor has the advantage of gearing and a much broader rpm band to work with. Which gets into HP. HP is what does the work after all, and in this case, it's a rather huge difference. Contrary to popular belief, hp is what makes those 0-60, 1/4, and pulling power up a hill. A gas motor may need some more rpm pulling up a hill, but it would win the race pulling up a hill every time. By a considerable margin. The 3UR-FE is a smooth, sweet sounding motor, so let her sing.

Now consider the negatives about diesel.

It's a heavier powerplant that makes considerably less hp. All straight line speed performance number would be much lower. All dynamic handling performance numbers will suffer. Considering it's reviews against comparable platforms (though I don't truly believe there's much comparable), this won't help it's case. Not to mention urea. Did you know the gas 3UR-FE is an Ultra Low Emission powerplant? That matters in the states.

- With the recent VW/Audi/Porsche diesel scandal, yeah, no way will Toyota bother.
- Toyota does not have a single diesel model. Not going to introduce diesel on the LC, which is already a niche model in their lineup

Not saying the diesel model doesn't make sense. It has a useful niche. Probably applicable to some people on these boards. And certainly applicable to a greater audience in Australia and Middle East. But that's not the popular audience in the US. Where relatively high speed freeways, smooth roads, and lots of infrastructure lie. HP is king here.

We may see hybrid or EV torque applied to future models of the LC, before we'll see diesel. Ever experience EV torque, that's where it's at.

Now what we really need is a standard long range tank on the gas model!!!

To play devils advocate:

-Diesel engines, due to their design and compression, with proper maintenance will operate much longer than their gasoline counterparts. This has been proven time and time again.

-While HP gets you to 0-60 faster, a diesel is much better for towing, both for MPG and general power (this is where torque matters).

-And while the VW scandal hurts, if CAFE standards remain, Toyota will have a HUGE incentive to introduce a diesel to their large 4x4s in the U.S.

The CAFE calculations are designed that one gas guzzler like the LC has a larger effect than you would imagine. Fleet fuel economy is calculated using a harmonic mean based on equal miles traveled for each vehicle in the fleet.

For example, a fleet of 4 vehicles getting 15, 13, 17, and 100 mpg has an arithmetic mean fuel economy of just over 36 mpg, but a CAFE of 18.83. While the effect of the LC is small on Toyota's overall fleet, adding a diesel powerplant to the Tundra and LC would provide a large boost to their overall CAFE assuming they go from 15 mpg to 24-25 mpg.

So Toyota actually has a fairly big incentive to introduce a diesel powerplant assuming they can get it to pass emission testing. There are pros and cons to a diesel powerplant, but with the way standards are today, a diesel could be a good option.

Bottom line: I would much rather have a diesel, than an electric/hybrid or a much weaker powerplant than the current gen in an attempt to eek out a few extra MPG (see the 2nd gen. 4.0 V6 Tacoma vs 3rd gen. 3.5 V6 Tacoma).

Edit: The CAFE standards are ruining a lot of cars in my opinion. I travel a lot for work and rent a lot of current model vehicles. I am amazed at the noise level (lack of insulation) and lack of power in many cars that I really liked the older versions of (most recently rented a Passat and it sounded like a lawn mower, and probably had about as much power as my mower too, lol). Not to mention how thin rotors have gotten just to shave off a few pounds. I used to have my rotors turned a 3 times before replacing, and that was usually about the life of the car. Over the past 5 years, I have had rotors warping at under 50k miles, and sometimes at 30k miles, and I just put on new rotors. Pretty sad.

 

[TonyP]

Or just do away with CAFE standards all together. If people want a high mpg car, they have options to buy them. If people want to buy a gas guzzler or diesel, the people should have that option too. Regulation is silly. Laissez-faire capitalism works. Unless you're in California, where they love regulation, and manslaughter is perfectly legal.

 

[Canyonero]

Dave from Toyota told us all in Breck this year that a Diesel LC is simply not happening.

He told the LCDC group that the perceived benefits of a diesel (mpg, towing, durability) would be relatively insignificant as compared to the current 5.7 liter v8 based on how much Toyota would need to "choke out" the diesel motor to meet emissions standards.

Dave also echoed what is now common knowledge: the 5.7 in the 200 series is one helluva engine and Toyota is pretty proud of it. It has great power and great longevity. There's only so much efficiency that can be expected from a vehicle like the 200.

I do hope the 300 series LC has a huge gas tank though, that really is an inexcusable flaw in the 200 (range).

 

[DeckerT4R]

I believe it’ll never happen but being a diesel enthusiast I would absolutely buy one. I have owned 5 diesel cars/trucks in the last 10 years. If a diesel option exists it’s always my choice. Sadly diesel has this idea around it that it’s “dirty” or gross. That’s just not the case anymore.
Also diesels can be tuned for much better power and generally a modest bump in mpg. I daily drive a 2012 585hp 1000+ Tq f250 and average 17mpg. Those numbers can be achieved with full emissions equipment intact, meaning no smoke, no smell.
Torque is what you want in an suv/truck. With new turbo and emissions tech, that Smokey, laggy diesel is a thing of the past. Bring em on!