Electronic Diesel Swaps - questions (2 Viewers)

[NeverClean]

Hi everyone,
After reading the threads on various 4 cylinder swaps for LCs I've given up trying to find a all mechanical solution for the J105, and am looking at either the Mitsubishi 4M50 or 4D34T. Both of these are electronically controlled and even though I have worked with electrical and electronic control systems in industry, I have no experience with how these systems work. So, if you have answers to the following questions I would appreciate any info you can provide.

First a big thanks to:
ASTR for posting up his work on the 4HE1: Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62
Zwcruiser for posting up his work on getting a 4M50 into his FZJ80: Soon to be attempted 4M50->FZJ80 swap
Fromage for posting up his work on the 4D34 swap: Mitsubishi 4D34-3AT3B diesel swap into 94 FZJ80
Superhatch for his work on his similar swap: Mitsubishi 4D34-2AT3B diesel swap into 96 FZJ80
and
Joff for posting up his experience with putting a 1HD-FTE into a FZJ105: 1HD-FTE into a 105 + build up for expedition

If you have got to this thread because you are considering a diesel swap it is worth your time reading through each of these threads.

Now for the questions (sorry some of these are total noob questions):

1. Is an oscilloscope (CRO or DSO) the way to test the electronic signals from the various sensors, or are there other ways to do this?
2. Is there any consistency in ECU interfaces to allow sensors and components to be turned off - and if anyone has experience with the ECUs for the 3D34T and 4M50 can the EGR be turned off in the later models?
3. Is it necessary to get a MUT diagnostic tool, or is there other options to connect the data port in the vehicle with a computer?
4. If the vehicle data port can be connected to a computer, what software is available (and good to use) for reporting error codes and interfacing with the ECU & TCM?
5. When using an engine that is controlled by an ECU that requires electronic speedo signal from the transmission, and installing an old school auto or manual behind it, is it possible to install a driveline speed sensor to supply the signal and if so can the signal be modulated to suit the requirements of the ECU? Is there a better solution?
6. If the ECU receives speed information from ABS wheel sensors, is there any point using one of these or does this quickly get too hard to make things work?
7. For those of you that travel with your electronic diesel conversion, do you carry a spare ECM and TCU with you as one of your essential spares?
8. Has anyone looked at using the 3D34T plus the transmission plus the mitsu transfer case from a Fuso FG649 4x4, to avoid the work of integrating the toyota trans and TC?

These two engines look like good options for a swap into the J105, so I'm keen to learn more about getting an electronic diesel in and working.

 

[NeverClean]

Oh yeah another question:
9. Old school diesels can be boosted and over fueled to increase power - are there similar mods that work with electronic diesels or am I stuck with flashing the ECU or getting a piggy back chip to do the work?

 

[bjowett]

Not to back you off your choice to go electronic, but have you considered any of the Hino 4 cylinder diesels? Some are mechanical, others electronic.

 

[NeverClean]

Not to back you off your choice to go electronic, but have you considered any of the Hino 4 cylinder diesels? Some are mechanical, others electronic.

bjowett, I have looked at the Hinos and Isuzus too - that's where I started.

The decision to go with one of the more recent engines is because the laws here require that an engine fitted to a vehicle has to be manufactured during the manufacturing years of the vehicle model. So in this case between 1999 and 2007. The only Hino motors that I could use seem to be reasonably rare and hard to get some parts for. The Isuzus and Mitsubishis are far more common here. The ones I could find are the N04C, S05C-T, and J05C-T - I believe all of these are electronic.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Which part of Australia are you in?

Why reinvent the wheel with a 4 cylinder, non-toyota engine?
1HD-FTE swaps in Australia are now a well trodden road (Joff was fairly early on this path) many have done the same now. From stock, to massively increased power upgrades, the whole thing can be done as a bolt in, as Toyota intended (maybe not their bean counters), bolt in transmissions, transfer case, stock engine and transfer mounts, stock driveshafts etc etc

There are aftermarket suppliers who can help fill in the gaps with wiring harness etc.

engines are readily available, parts available anywhere (new or used), mechanical support is going to be easy anywhere in Aus, vs having an oddball install with a failure, then trying to get a mechanic to help figure it out somewhere in the back blocks.

search on lcool.org/forum for more info, its a well covered topic. You'll have to sign up

 

[NeverClean]

Hi Mudgudgeon, thanks for your response. I hear you about the 1HD-FTE. I have to say that there are a lot of things I don't like about the IHD-FTE engine. I know a lot of people think they are great, but I have driven a couple of friends' vehicles off road on technical (slow) tracks and they definitely are not as good as the 13B-T that I had in my BJ42 running 15lb of boost. They are good on the freeway, and if they have the A442 behind them they are reasonable on sand. Just not fun, even with an extra 30kw worth of upgrades.

Everyone that I know that had one has now sold it and moved on so, I don't have a vehicle as a reference point.

With all that said, it is definitely the fall back position, I just thought I'd look at what is involved in splicing two or three electronic systems together. If I can work out how to test and integrate the electronics and modulate sender signals, then I'd be keen to give it a go.

 

[bjowett]

Huh, I was under the impression that the Hino engines were more widely available in Australia.... both used and possibly new industrial versions. Oh well. An N04C-TI would be my choice, a modern version of the W Series.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Huh, I was under the impression that the Hino engines were more widely available in Australia.... both used and possibly new industrial versions. Oh well. An N04C-TI would be my choice, a modern version of the W Series.

Yes they are. The only problem is finding one that hasn't done 500k+, but still easier than chasing 1HD T 1HD FTE etc.

 

[NeverClean]

Yes they are. The only problem is finding one that hasn't done 500k+, but still easier than chasing 1HD T 1HD FTE etc.

I have found plenty of 1HD-FTEs, they are not in short supply, but everyone thinks that they are made of gold and are trying to sell them for premium dollars even though in most cases they have done more than 250k and are being sold with no service and prior ownership information. I did searches on a couple of engines based on the engine number to find out histories to see if the price being asked was reasonable, but this is time consuming and expensive to do every time. If I end up going down the 1HD-FTE path, I'll be buying a HDJ79 wreck at the auctions so I can see the condition of the vehicle and download the cache on the ECU.

I have found dealing with truck recyclers infinitely better for engines rather than dealing with 4wd recyclers. This is one of the reasons that the 4 cylinder diesel swap is under consideration.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Hi Mudgudgeon, thanks for your response. I hear you about the 1HD-FTE. I have to say that there are a lot of things I don't like about the IHD-FTE engine. I know a lot of people think they are great, but I have driven a couple of friends' vehicles off road on technical (slow) tracks and they definitely are not as good as the 13B-T that I had in my BJ42 running 15lb of boost. They are good on the freeway, and if they have the A442 behind them they are reasonable on sand. Just not fun, even with an extra 30kw worth of upgrades.

Everyone that I know that had one has now sold it and moved on so, I don't have a vehicle as a reference point.

With all that said, it is definitely the fall back position, I just thought I'd look at what is involved in splicing two or three electronic systems together. If I can work out how to test and integrate the electronics and modulate sender signals, then I'd be keen to give it a go.

Is that an apples to apples comparison?
BJ42 would weigh a hell of a lot less than a 105 series for a start.

There's a lot more than 30kw increase in output available by upgrading a 1HD-FTE if you choose to pursue it.

1HD-FTE is very widely held in high regard.
They command a high price because of this, but also because they are bolt in upgrade for anything that had a 1HZ, 1HD-T, 1HD-FT in it, or also 1FZ series engines.
What you save by buying a non bolt in, nonToyota diesel, you'll possibly spend on adapting or customising or one off parts to make it fit.
If you have a cost estimate and time frame for a non standard install, double the cost, and triple the time frame and you might be close

 

[Vossie]

im with @mudgudgeon on this. staying toyota is always my preferred way to go. and the 1HD-FTE is a beast. my uncle has a UK spec 105 with it and hes just put in a new garret turbo. it goes like stink. shifts that heavy 105 better than anything else i have had experience with.

its a good solid engine with well known reliability and longevity. i would definitely go this route before even considering any Mitsubishi option.

just my 2 cents

 

[NeverClean]

Is that an apples to apples comparison?
BJ42 would weigh a hell of a lot less than a 105 series for a start.

There's a lot more than 30kw increase in output available by upgrading a 1HD-FTE if you choose to pursue it.

1HD-FTE is very widely held in high regard.
They command a high price because of this, but also because they are bolt in upgrade for anything that had a 1HZ, 1HD-T, 1HD-FT in it, or also 1FZ series engines.
What you save by buying a non bolt in, nonToyota diesel, you'll possibly spend on adapting or customising or one off parts to make it fit.
If you have a cost estimate and time frame for a non standard install, double the cost, and triple the time frame and you might be close

Mudgudgeon, I don't believe an apples to apples comparison is possible between a 100 series and a BJ42. My experiences with the two engines/vehicles are:
13B-T:

1. Throttle response is strong but not brutal, and steady torque curve up to about 1850rpm, then falls away
2. Pushing a 1900kg vehicle unloaded on road it is very quick for a diesel
3. Pushing a 3000ish kg vehicle (loaded) on road it is definitely not as quick, but not slow either
4. In the sand loaded to about 2800ish kg it had plenty of torque and I got approximately 16L/100 (14.7mpg), but maintaining anything above 50kph on soft sand was hard work
5. No problems in mud or on rocks

1HD-FTE:

1. Throttle response is lacking at low revs, strong in the middle, and has good power from 2200rpm
2. Pushing a 2700kg vehicle unloaded on road it keeps up with traffic
3. Pushing a 3500kg vehicle (loaded) on road is almost the same as unloaded
4. In the sand loaded to about 3500kg it has plenty of torque in most of the rev range, but there is an irritating point in the autos where it keeps changing gear, so not sure if this is a shift point problem or the point where the torque curve plateaus off - lockup override button fixed this apparently - in the manual, I admit that because I like old school diesels and cruising at about 1500rpm the vehicle probably was just different to drive - in both fuel consumption was about 20L/100 (11.6mpg)
5. Mud is okay, lack of throttle response was annoying on rocks and technical tracks (the auto is much better than the manual)

Agree on time and cost of conversion.

Do you know how much power and torque is available with 15lb of boost, 3" exhaust and a W2A intercooler? As always I have seen lots of threads on power upgrades, but it is rare for anyone to get the truck dyno'd and have numbers to show.

im with @mudgudgeon on this. staying toyota is always my preferred way to go. and the 1HD-FTE is a beast. my uncle has a UK spec 105 with it and hes just put in a new garret turbo. it goes like stink. shifts that heavy 105 better than anything else i have had experience with.

its a good solid engine with well known reliability and longevity. i would definitely go this route before even considering any Mitsubishi option.

just my 2 cents

Interesting. What other power mods has the vehicle had done to it? Have you worked on a 1HD-FTE or done any of the major services for one - like changing that important rubber band at the front?

Thanks for your responses guys, I appreciate it.

 

[Vossie]

Mudgudgeon, I don't believe an apples to apples comparison is possible between a 100 series and a BJ42. My experiences with the two engines/vehicles are:
13B-T:

1. Throttle response is strong but not brutal, and steady torque curve up to about 1850rpm, then falls away
2. Pushing a 1900kg vehicle unloaded on road it is very quick for a diesel
3. Pushing a 3000ish kg vehicle (loaded) on road it is definitely not as quick, but not slow either
4. In the sand loaded to about 2800ish kg it had plenty of torque and I got approximately 16L/100 (14.7mpg), but maintaining anything above 50kph on soft sand was hard work
5. No problems in mud or on rocks

1HD-FTE:

1. Throttle response is lacking at low revs, strong in the middle, and has good power from 2200rpm
2. Pushing a 2700kg vehicle unloaded on road it keeps up with traffic
3. Pushing a 3500kg vehicle (loaded) on road is almost the same as unloaded
4. In the sand loaded to about 3500kg it has plenty of torque in most of the rev range, but there is an irritating point in the autos where it keeps changing gear, so not sure if this is a shift point problem or the point where the torque curve plateaus off - lockup override button fixed this apparently - in the manual, I admit that because I like old school diesels and cruising at about 1500rpm the vehicle probably was just different to drive - in both fuel consumption was about 20L/100 (11.6mpg)
5. Mud is okay, lack of throttle response was annoying on rocks and technical tracks (the auto is much better than the manual)

Agree on time and cost of conversion.

Do you know how much power and torque is available with 15lb of boost, 3" exhaust and a W2A intercooler? As always I have seen lots of threads on power upgrades, but it is rare for anyone to get the truck dyno'd and have numbers to show.

maybe it was the one you drove? the ones i have had experience with have never had bad throttle response, and i come from driving a 12HT which is like a rattle snake on crack its so sensitive.

Interesting. What other power mods has the vehicle had done to it? Have you worked on a 1HD-FTE or done any of the major services for one - like changing that important rubber band at the front?

Thanks for your responses guys, I appreciate it.

thats the thing, nothing has been done to this cruiser, other than my uncle bought the car with a bit of a wonky turbo, so put in a new garret. other than that, there is not a single mod. my uncle is not that kinda guy. but boy does that cruiser fly. we just had it on the beach in deep sand in Inhambane, Mozambique, and it never missed a chance to show just how well it could go.

i think the only thing that may have been done to it, by toyota, is maybe its chipped differently due to it being a UK spec? but not sure on that.

as for servicing, its a toyota. you can get spares anywhere, and any 2 banana mechanic can do it. timing belt change is just the same as any other, so nothing special about it.

on another note i also found the 1HD-FTE to be one of the most quiet, for its size. coming from the 105 on the beach back into my 12HT 45 felt like driving a tractor for the noise. but then there are other awesome benefits to the 12HT

 

[mudgudgeon]

Do you know how much power and torque is available with 15lb of boost, 3" exhaust and a W2A intercooler?

Not in so much as being able to quote figures.
I've recently fitted a 1HD-FTE turbo to a HZJ105, haven't fully tuned it, or driven it much yet, but indications are it's going to be strong from around 17-1800rpm, or lower, with wastegate set at 1bar.

With 3" exhaust and intercooler, 1HD-FTE should be pulling strongly well before 2200rpm.
They are torque limited in first gear via a switch/sensor on the gear box(maybe just the manual version?? Not sure on this) to prevent drive line breakage and loss of traction.
Personally, I'd be looking at eliminating the first gear sensor. If you want to limit torque, start in 2nd gear.

There's a few aftermarket turbo upgrade options for them now that use more advanced turbo design that improve low end torque and power output generally, but you're talking more $$ on top.
the stock turbo is fairly outdated technology now.

 

[NeverClean]

... i come from driving a 12HT which is like a rattle snake on crack its so sensitive.

Hahahahaha - I got my fully loaded HJ61 airborne the other day because of this and some inappropriately spaced bumps on an access track.

...as for servicing, its a toyota. you can get spares anywhere, and any 2 banana mechanic can do it. timing belt change is just the same as any other, so nothing special about it.

on another note i also found the 1HD-FTE to be one of the most quiet, for its size. coming from the 105 on the beach back into my 12HT 45 felt like driving a tractor for the noise. but then there are other awesome benefits to the 12HT

It seems every time I take a cruiser to a 2 banana mechanic it comes back with problems that I then have to fix - I'm getting pretty tired of this, but I hear what you are saying. Just to be clear, I like the noise my 12HT makes. Its almost as good as the noise the 13BT made.

Not in so much as being able to quote figures.
I've recently fitted a 1HD-FTE turbo to a HZJ105, haven't fully tuned it, or driven it much yet, but indications are it's going to be strong from around 17-1800rpm, or lower, with wastegate set at 1bar.

tell me more. How much electronic diagnosis/splicing was required. Did you have any issues with the ABS sensors?

With 3" exhaust and intercooler, 1HD-FTE should be pulling strongly well before 2200rpm.
They are torque limited in first gear via a switch/sensor on the gear box(maybe just the manual version?? Not sure on this) to prevent drive line breakage and loss of traction.
Personally, I'd be looking at eliminating the first gear sensor. If you want to limit torque, start in 2nd gear.

Yeah, my understanding is that it is only on the manual. But I haven't investigated how this was done, if you work out how this is signalled to the ECU I'd be really interested to know. I would hazard a guess this is actually done with the ABS sensors.

There's a few aftermarket turbo upgrade options for them now that use more advanced turbo design that improve low end torque and power output generally, but you're talking more $$ on top.
the stock turbo is fairly outdated technology now.

I've read a lot of people quoting better turbo options, but no performance figures, so I'd be interested in any information you have.

This isn't the conversation I thought I'd be having on 'mud about diesel swaps, its very sensible but

 

[Vossie]

Hahahahaha - I got my fully loaded HJ61 airborne the other day because of this and some inappropriately spaced bumps on an access track.

yup, i can see that happening. my FJ45 is so twitchy in first i barely ever use it these days, unless im blowing off a 1HZ equipped cruiser

It seems every time I take a cruiser to a 2 banana mechanic it comes back with problems that I then have to fix - I'm getting pretty tired of this, but I hear what you are saying. Just to be clear, I like the noise my 12HT makes. Its almost as good as the noise the 13BT made.

well ja, im not saying go to a 2 banana, but if you were in the middle of the sticks and had a problem, then at least your not totally screwed. you would be, especially round my neck of the woods, if you had a mitsubishi. not to mention how badly cussed you would be here. mitsi's are not at all liked in the african bush.

This isn't the conversation I thought I'd be having on 'mud about diesel swaps, its very sensible but

of course, this is mud

 

[mudgudgeon]

To clarify, I have a HZJ105, with the standard 1HZzzzz motor and manual trans. I've fitted a 1HD-FTE turbo to the 1HZ.
I can't help you with any of the electrickery associated with a 1HD-FTE.
The only thing I know about electronics is, if you can't fix it with a bigger hammer, the problem is electrical, and you need a bigger hammer.

I chose to fit a 1HD-FTE turbo to the 1HZ, because they are very close to upgrades available in the aftermarket. Yes, there are other more modern options, but for me, I was always looking at a low budget option. I've previously built up 1HD-T/Supra 7MGTE hybrids for a 1HD-T, and was going down that road again.
Stock 1HD-FTE power output is a decent step up from a 1HD-T, and changes to the turbo is a fairly big part of that equation.
The 1HD-FTE turbo is another leap ahead of a 1HD-T/Supra 7MGTE hybrid, and not to far behind a gturbo or similar. For me, it's a great middle ground.

12ht uses a ct26 turbo with same size turbine and compressor as the 1HD-T uses. This is why I'm surprised at your impressions of 1HD-FTEs. Although, I've also had the pleasure of driving a hj61 for a few months with a tweaked 12ht, and they are certainly twitchy, and fun to drive. I can relate to catching air on speed bumps

If your interested in some comparative info on turbo sizing, there's a little bit in my build thread here
Rolling the dice - slow moving turbo HZJ105 project

 

[mudgudgeon]

I'm also not a fan of Mitsubishi motors in general. There's been a few in the family over the years.
As a generalisation, (maybe biased) they seem to burn oil as they get a few miles on them.

 

[NeverClean]

To clarify, I have a HZJ105, with the standard 1HZzzzz motor and manual trans. I've fitted a 1HD-FTE turbo to the 1HZ.
I can't help you with any of the electrickery associated with a 1HD-FTE.
The only thing I know about electronics is, if you can't fix it with a bigger hammer, the problem is electrical, and you need a bigger hammer.

I chose to fit a 1HD-FTE turbo to the 1HZ, because they are very close to upgrades available in the aftermarket. Yes, there are other more modern options, but for me, I was always looking at a low budget option. I've previously built up 1HD-T/Supra 7MGTE hybrids for a 1HD-T, and was going down that road again.
Stock 1HD-FTE power output is a decent step up from a 1HD-T, and changes to the turbo is a fairly big part of that equation.
The 1HD-FTE turbo is another leap ahead of a 1HD-T/Supra 7MGTE hybrid, and not to far behind a gturbo or similar. For me, it's a great middle ground.

12ht uses a ct26 turbo with same size turbine and compressor as the 1HD-T uses. This is why I'm surprised at your impressions of 1HD-FTEs. Although, I've also had the pleasure of driving a hj61 for a few months with a tweaked 12ht, and they are certainly twitchy, and fun to drive. I can relate to catching air on speed bumps

If your interested in some comparative info on turbo sizing, there's a little bit in my build thread here
Rolling the dice - slow moving turbo HZJ105 project

Thanks for the extra info, I had a look at your thread too - good work.

If you decide to put a stainless snorkel on your HZJ105, I have spent some time working out how to minimise parts and stop water getting through the pipe and destroying the paper filter element. I have settled on not putting any stainless tube within the quarter panel and just use a 3" + flexible air intake duct split into two sections and with a vacutor valve fitted to a connector made of a piece of the 3" tube and fixed at the lowest point of the duct. If you then route the flexible duct so that the air has to change direction and travel up hill toward the air box, 95% of the moisture will be shed before it gets to the airbox. The vacuator valve then allows water out, but not back in (when in good condition). You could also use a check valve or similar, but then you have another inspection and maintenance task. I did some work on a ducting project for Mack and you should see the amount of water those 5" or 6" diameter snorkels suck in. The vacuator valves they use are enormous but work well - the longer the valve the better because the valve can then be spec'd to only open when there is 50mm of water in the tube. Donaldson sells a valve that is designed to be attached to the end of a tube to give sufficient length, but I'm sure you could buy one of the Mack valves too.

I've used the foil backed closed cell foam in mine too, its great because you can pull the carpet and foam within minutes and hose out the LC, and makes it so much quieter.

 

[NeverClean]

yup, i can see that happening. my FJ45 is so twitchy in first i barely ever use it these days, unless im blowing off a 1HZ equipped cruiser

"Equipped" and 1HZ in the same sentence is a bit much - I remember reading your build thread a year or two back now, has the 12HT given you any problems?

Part of the reason for this thread was that I was hoping to find an engine that I could use to power the 105, and then do a like swap into the Fj45. But you guys are doing a good job of convincing me not to. I wonder if 1HD long motors are still available from Toyota?