HDJ81 TD towing a built up 4Runner (1 Viewer)

[MiniMan85]

I've got a '90 4Runner (SAS'd, 9" lift, ARB, dual transfer cases, etc) to tow from just south of Calgary to Edmonton. I'd guess the 4Runner weighs close to 5000lbs and the trailer would undoubtedly be in the 2000lb range. The distance is between 350 and 400 KM and is very flat and the trailer will have hydraulic surge brakes.

I'm a little leery, as I know the Turbo Diesel 81's are factory rated to tow 7500lbs, but it seams like quite the load to put on my rig. Aside from checking the cooling system, changing the oil, filters, etc. What would you folks suggest I do to prep the truck? Is this something that I should, or shouldn't be doing?

I'd plan on driving back in 3rd gear doing around 100 KM/HR and giving the truck 30 minutes to an hour to cool around half way through the trip.

 

[Corbet]

I'd make sure your trailer brakes are working properly.

 

[MiniMan85]

Definitely... if they're not, I don't think it'd take long to notice, heh.

 

[fj80toyman]

It sounds like you've not towed this particular combination before? Don't know how much trailer towing experience you have, but the ideal tongue weight, especially with only surge brakes, is about 10~15%. I'd tend to lean a little more toward 15% with surgies.

There's a thread, legendary story really, about a mudder hauling a '55 from Idaho and he makes a comment about the trailer suspension and the trailered vehicle suspension finding a common frequency and the whole towed rig gets scary.

I've seen trailered rigs where the body is tied down to the trailer to prevent this (suspension movement) to make the towed rig more safe. Don't have experience towing a vehicle with so much suspension travel, but something to think about. Some I've seen, only the tires are used as attachment points to the trailer. I'd use frame points for sure. That tongue weight is the most important thing to watch though.

Good luck with it. Dan.

 

[MiniMan85]

So far I've towed a Nissan Skyline GTR and trailer with it (5500lbs) and the 'Cruiser had no problem with that, besides having a rock hit the turbo's oil return line. No overheating, climbing temp gauge, etc. It sure was slow to get up to speed, but it stopped just fine and once at speed it was hard to notice. That is the only other towing I've done so far, though.

What's the deal with surge brakes? I thought they were generally on par with electrics?

As far as the tongue weight goes, is there a way you can tell/approximate what the tongue weight is?

It sounds like I should go buy a couple heavy duty straps to tie the 4Runner down and compress it's suspension. Has anyone else done this? I believe I noticed another thread about this, where it flipped the trailer and tow vehicle over, totalling both. I can't remember that thread though, nor can I remember if it was the suspension travel of the vehicle being towed that caused it. Anyone else ever hear stories like this? Anyone else ever towed a rig with lots of travel? What was it like? Here's a pic of the 4Runner:

 

[KliersLC]

See the link in my sigline for more info, but that looks suspiciously like a Uhaul trailer. IF you insist on using uhaul, make SURE that you have crossed chains under the tongue, and that you check that joint at EVERY stop.

If you search for threads on towing, you will find that there are differing opinions on whether to anchor the tires or the frame. With a vehicle like this, you will start swaying every time you let off the throttle. You don't want the trailer suspension and the vehicle suspension working in conjunction to increase the sway--it will quickly turn into a death wobble.

In addition, if you have a blow out on either the trailer or the 81, you will have immediate, almost unrecoverable death wobble. All this to say that you need to pick up a couple heavy duty ratchet straps and strap the thing to the trailer. Anchor to the frame and compress the suspension until it won't go anymore.

This is doable, but it is rolling the dice. Good luck to you, and ensure you know the risks. FWIW, I was on a flat straight road when mine let go, other wise I probably wouldn't be here.

 

[MiniMan85]

Kliers, your story is the one in reference, yes sir. Thanks for posting up.

The trailer used to haul the GTR was a U-Haul trailer... yup. That was before I knew better though. This time around I've rented a "heavy duty" trailer from Trailers Unlimited. Supposedly it can support up to 6000lbs, versus U-Hauls 4000lbs. The Land Cruiser *should* only weigh around 4500lbs, so I'm hoping there won't be any failures like you had.

Thanks in kind for the advice about checking the tongue and joint at every stop. I will definitely be sure to do that.

Do you feel it was your suspension counter-acting the trailer's that ultimately caused the wobble to be unrecoverable? How fast were you going, mind my asking and how much did your pig weigh? Do you think the weight of it being over (if it was) the maximum load rating of the trailer as having weighed into the tongue breaking? Do you have any high-res shots of the break that you could email to me? It'd be great to see it up close.

Thanks again Kliers for all of your insight and sorry to hear about the accident.

Corey

 

[fj80toyman]

I'm glad Kliers checked in, that was the reference but I didn't have time to find it before. Surge brakes are fine for small trailers (IMO) but if you have a large load, I certainly would prefer electric brakes with a trailer brake controller on the dash. When (not if) it starts to sway, even a little, a touch of the trailer brakes, and only the trailer brakes, will bring a well-distributed load back with no drama.

Tongue weight can be measured with a bathroom scale if you set up a simple load-divider with a 4x4 piece of wood. If you put the tongue of the trailer EXACTLY in the middle of the 4x4 placed horizontally, tongue at about the correct/mounted height, stand one end of the 4x4 to the ground and the other on the scale. The 4x4 must be horizontal/level here! Put it on the scale after you've temporarily positioned the car on the trailer. 5,000 lb load x 10% is 500 lbs. Divided by 2, scale should read 250 lbs. You could change the ratio of the 4x4 to decrease the load on your scale. Wow!, sounds a little complicated but not too bad, really.

I towed my FJ40 home about 40 miles with a U-Haul trailer up and over Sepulveda Pass in So. Ca. with no trouble behind my '80 (at 50-55 mph). When it came time to bring home a project '55 over the same pass, I left it to a flat-bed tow truck. That was more a matter of convenience than anything else, but it sure was easier!!

Hope we haven't completely talked you out of it, precautions taken, it's not a bad thing, just be on your game when you go.

Nice 4Runner by the way, looks like a cool project.

Dan.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

Are you sure you have a trailer hitch rated for that kind of weight? The Kaymar rear after market bumper on my HZJ 60 says its good for 5000 lbs.

 

[Corbet]

I always attach to the frame of the vehicle I have trailered. Right or wrong this IMO. I don't like the trailered vehicle bouncing on the trailer. I chain up the back then use the trailer winch to draw the suspension down. Ratchet strap up the front and detach the winch.

As far as tongue weight I've not had to be as concerned, as I'm always towing with a 3/4 ton full size. I just position the vehicle on the trailer so that I like the look of the rear springs on the tow vehicle.

I would not want to tow with surge brakes in my area. I'm constantly going over Vail pass or through the tunnel to Denver. On flat ground for a one time thing? be careful. Electric brakes and a controller are far better. As is an engine/exhaust brake.

 

[fj80toyman]

Are you sure you have a trailer hitch rated for that kind of weight? The Kaymar rear after market bumper on my HZJ 60 says its good for 5000 lbs.

When I bought my Kaymar, I was told that 5,000 lbs was a very conservative number. After bolting it up myself, I'd have to agree. To the point that the bumper is no longer the weakest link in that chain. Extremely sturdy. Brakes, pulling power and engine cooling are more of a concern to me. No longer concerned about bumper capacity really.

Dan.

 

[darmaduke]

your going from Clagary to edmonton, and back?

WHY ARE YOU MAKING YOUR LIFE DIFFICULT??

why dont you just rent a Uhal truck for the day? mabey 150 in total? why take the risk of totaling both vechicles.

The brake issue is not the problem, it is the gusts of winds the run between there, it could take that 4 runner and push it all over the place, and with the 80 not being much heavier than the 4 runner, you could be in trouble.

for 150 bucks, get a big Uhaul trailer and be back in time for supper. You will have 0 issue that way. I towed my 4 runner on a Uhal trailer from Vancouver to Miami...no porblems at all, and your only going 400km total.

you could get a trailer as well from them. they are in the north east of Calgary. Think about that option. it might seem the eaisy way out, but aftre you have flipped both vechiles you will wish you had considered it , and its really cheap.

good luck
Scott.
Vancouver

 

[KliersLC]

Kliers, your story is the one in reference, yes sir. Thanks for posting up.

The trailer used to haul the GTR was a U-Haul trailer... yup. That was before I knew better though. This time around I've rented a "heavy duty" trailer from Trailers Unlimited. Supposedly it can support up to 6000lbs, versus U-Hauls 4000lbs. The Land Cruiser *should* only weigh around 4500lbs, so I'm hoping there won't be any failures like you had.

Thanks in kind for the advice about checking the tongue and joint at every stop. I will definitely be sure to do that.

Do you feel it was your suspension counter-acting the trailer's that ultimately caused the wobble to be unrecoverable? How fast were you going, mind my asking and how much did your pig weigh? Do you think the weight of it being over (if it was) the maximum load rating of the trailer as having weighed into the tongue breaking? Do you have any high-res shots of the break that you could email to me? It'd be great to see it up close.

Thanks again Kliers for all of your insight and sorry to hear about the accident.

Corey

OK, Good choice on the trailer, one thing to check is the curb weight of the sturdier trailer. Uhaul uses a lot of aluminum to keep weight down, whereas most use steel. Unless it has a similar design to the Uhaul, the tongue *shouldn't* be a problem, I'd still check it every stop.

The suspension certainly made things worse, but what made in unrecoverable was the trailer tongue sliding underneath and popping off my right rear tire. I think the amount of wobble caused me to make the decision to drop into 2nd rather than riding it out, and this is what allowed the trailer to slide up underneath the 80

I was going about 50-55, (I had been running 70 pretty comfortably, but I had just got back on the freeway, and wasn't up to speed yet.)

The pig weighed in at about 3950, so I was pushing the envelope, but the cause of the break was the poor design, exacerbated by the frost joints on I-84. There have been many, many tongue failures on these trailers....

I do have a couple of full size pics I can send if you would like, PM me your email addy.

Be careful whatever you decide.....

Dan

 

[jasonmt]

I have towed this combination (~6000#'s) around town quite a bit but would hesitate to take it on the highway for a long trip as it is takes quite a bit more concentration than when it is hooked up to a 1 ton dually. If I was going to pull it with the cruiser on the highway I would be getting the heavy Slee springs and a weight distributing hitch, you might be able to borrow a weight distributing hitch from a friend or the trailer rental place? It has real trailer brakes and a controller though, with surge brakes I would not even hook it up to the truck let alone take it on the highway. You can easily pick up a controller for under $100 and it is not a big job to hook it up.

 

[96r50]

I think Princess Auto has a brake controller on sale this week, and they stock all the wiring/trailer hookup bits you would need (if you want to retrofit your rig and then find a trailer with electric brakes)

 

[MiniMan85]

I have towed this combination (~6000#'s) around town quite a bit but would hesitate to take it on the highway for a long trip as it is takes quite a bit more concentration than when it is hooked up to a 1 ton dually. If I was going to pull it with the cruiser on the highway I would be getting the heavy Slee springs and a weight distributing hitch, you might be able to borrow a weight distributing hitch from a friend or the trailer rental place? It has real trailer brakes and a controller though, with surge brakes I would not even hook it up to the truck let alone take it on the highway. You can easily pick up a controller for under $100 and it is not a big job to hook it up.

Jason, how'd the LC hold up EGT wise towing that trailer? What's the signifigance of electric brakes versus surge? Simply that they are adjustable? Is it possible to brake the trailer brakes seperate from the LC's brakes using an electric controller? Sounds like the controller is simply a potentiometer using the necessary inputs.

 

[MiniMan85]

I think Princess Auto has a brake controller on sale this week, and they stock all the wiring/trailer hookup bits you would need (if you want to retrofit your rig and then find a trailer with electric brakes)

Thanks for letting us know! I may just buy one so that I can install it for the next time I plan on towing something big.

 

[jasonmt]

Jason, how'd the LC hold up EGT wise towing that trailer? What's the signifigance of electric brakes versus surge? Simply that they are adjustable? Is it possible to brake the trailer brakes seperate from the LC's brakes using an electric controller? Sounds like the controller is simply a potentiometer using the necessary inputs.

As I did not do very much highway driving with this combination I really cannot comment on the EGT's, stock 4:10's and 35" tyres are not going to be the best combination for either the EGT's or transmission temps.

The rest of your questions should be answered by this, the Princess Auto brake controller I bought was a Draw-Tite Activator:
http://www.etrailer.com/faq_brakecontroller.aspx

 

[fj80toyman]

You can't just put an electric brake controller on a trailer with surge brakes if that's the direction you're thinking.

Surge brakes operate on the principal of compression in the hitch actuating a hydraulic system. Take a look at a U-Haul trailer and get an image of how surge brakes work. There's not a way to hook up a brake controller to that.

Electric brakes are battery operated and actuated, usually both from your vehicle battery and a small battery on the trailer itself, entirely different principal, one won't talk to another as far as I am aware of the current systems.

Dan.

 

[MiniMan85]

Lol, Dan... no worries... I'm not that dumb! Hehe, I've done a bit of research into it and I have a decent understanding of both systems. I was just curious as to why buying a potentiometer in a fancy plastic box makes it cost so much or if there was more to it that I wasn't aware of.

Jason, I'm on 4:10's with 35's too. I'm hoping it works out to be a decent combination for cruising along the highway in 3rd gear. Hopefully rev's won't be too high for the given speed. As an aside, I calculated my speedo to be 16% off. Seams high, IMO... but according to the mile markers, that's what it is (4.2/5). Anyone ever told you that you go through a LOT of tires, BTW?