first welder

[Lulu]

Mornin fellas and gals.
Question. I searched for a while but didn't find a thread on this topic.

What would be the best (meaning more forgiving) welder for a noob to learn on? Thoughts and opinions welcome. What is start up cost? ie mask, tanks, element, etc?

Thanks as always

Brad

[nat]

What are you planning on welding?

[D'Animal]

Send a PM to FJ40Charles. He is in your neighborhood and collects welders.

Maybe you could go and use some of his and see which one you like and maybe buy one from him.


Just a thought.

[fj40charles]

Brad,

You need to specify what you'll want to weld (metal thickness) and what your budget is and what kind of power you has access to (115v or 230v) at the house.

I'd recommend you get a 230v welder if you're going to buy just one welder.

Buy a brand name welder such as Lincoln, Hobart, or Miller. Stay away from chinese made welders. You'll have no resale value and lousy performance.

Spending more money for a good USA made welder will be much easier to get parts for and will generally work better. There are many factors that affect the quality of the arc and they will all weld differently.

Many people end up buying a little 115v welder and quickly realize that it is not going to weld much more than 1/8" steel in a single pass. Better to spend a little extra now for a 230v welder and not have to outgrow it soon.

Unless you have a big budget and/or time to shop for a used welder... I'd recommend a Hobart Handler 187. This is a 180 amp 230v welder that is small and portable. What makes this welder so nice it the fact that it has a very nice choke design with lots of inductance which will produce a very nice, stable arc across all of the tap setting.

Here is a breakdown of cost.

Hobart Handler 187 from Toolking.. This is an "A" stock, factory refurb. $519 + 8 shipping.

Hobart 500525A Factory Reconditioned 187 Mig Welder "A" Stock - ToolKing.com


Cost of a 150CF cylinder filled with C25 gas (argon/co2 mix) will be $229 + tax at home depot.

Auto Darkening helmet. Black Miller Elite.. $217 delivered.

MILLER ELITE AUTO WELDING HELMET BLACK 216322 NEW - eBay (item 160205824847 end time Feb-11-08 21:56:22 PST)

You'll need to buy gloves, clamps, grinder, Mig wire, etc., I'd buy the gloves locally to make sure it will fit.

You can buy the Mig wires on fleabay for cheap from HTP. Be sure to buy .030 wire for HH 187. While you're at it, might as well buy some contact tips. You'll get free shipping.
2 10 lb Rolls ER70S-6 .030" Steel MIG Welding Wire - eBay (item 140202886491 end time Feb-13-08 19:00:00 PST)

Charles

[angelballer]

I agree with Charles. Dad purchased the HH187 and it seems to be a very nice unit. School has some much larger units and it seems to be just as nice as long as you are using it for what it was intended for.

That being said, Dad bought his C25 cylinder from TSC as they were dramatically cheaper than the local welding shop. I believe they are in Texas so you might wanna check that out.

[Lulu]

Thanks Charles et all. Mainly will be trying my skill at patching sheet metal on the FJ. Rear bed is rusted out as well as c chanel. Some holes in drivers floor board near where tranny hump attached. Then if I feel secure with weld quality, it will help with motor mounts for my Ram Jet install. Power steering etc. Tubes for roll bar... All these are on wish list. Main thing now is for sheet metal to patch holes and/or attach new rear quarters and rear bed...
any thoughts knowing that...
and yes, I would rather spend money on quality. New home owner so I am sure I will get many uses out of it sooner or later.

Brad

[Pin_Head]

No matter what you get, also get a Lincoln "tombstone" AC buzz box stick welder. If you can weld sheet metal with that, you can weld anything. If you buy one used for $100 it will always be worth at least that.

[n2666s]

Pin_Head; what model lincoln is that?; have been looking at stick welders and could use one

Lou

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by n2666s

Pin_Head; what model lincoln is that?; have been looking at stick welders and could use one

Lou

I think Pinhead is talking about one of these... I see these used on Craigslist all the time.

Lincoln Electric AC225S Welder - K1170 at The Home Depot

If you have a choice, I'd get a AC/DC stick welder. DC stick welding will be easier for most people.

[Mace]

AC stick sucks..

[Pin_Head]

Originally Posted by Mace

AC stick sucks..

It does indeed.

If you can weld sheet metal with AC stick, you are a welder and won't have any trouble using one of those wire glue guns once you get it dialed in.

[BooKilla]

Originally Posted by Mace

AC stick sucks..

AC really sucks.

There is no general need to use any other welders other than 2 MIG and 1 TIG. 110v and 220v migs and a TIG. Stick welding is something that is kinda fun to do sometimes to have some laughs, but has very little practical purpose when you have a MIG and TIG.

To get back to the thread topic....I learned on a Lincoln 250 MIG and Miller 210. I teach people to start with MIG because people tend to pick it up faster and it acclimates them to the expirience of welding and sparks and intense heat. I have a lincoln 110v that is awesome as well.

[hydrogeo]

AC stick is not easy, but alot of stuff has been welded with it over the years. The correct rod choice and lots of practice are critical. I would agree that Mig and Tig are hands down the choice if your'e welding new, clean steel inside a shop. That said, mig and tig just do not cut it when you are welding rusty, greasy steel with less than perfect prep. Yes, you can run flux core but it still not as good.

Last winter I broke the frame on my snow plow in the middle of a storm. I pulled into the garage, brushed the snow off and buzzed it back together with my Lincoln AC225 still soaking wet and salty just to get the job done. Figured I'd go back and fix it later. That never happened. No way could I have welded that with my mig. I've had my AC225 for 19 years and my mig for about 2. No way I'd want to give up the mig for body work or lighter gage stuff. For that the AC bites big time. But for frame work, rock sliders, etc. when its got to be strong I am more confident in my AC stick welds. And the debate rages on....

[Pin_Head]

Everybody needs a stick welder for the big stuff.

Of course, if you get a TIG welder, it already comes with a DC stick welder built in.

[colangut]

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

Everybody needs a stick welder for the big stuff.

Of course, if you get a TIG welder, it already comes with a DC stick welder built in.

My MM250 will do up to 1/2 in one pass? How thick do you need to weld Charlie?

There are things that are best done or can only be done with stick though. Cast iron for one, dissimilar metals for another (welding hardened steel to mild steel), hard surfacing is stick only and last but not least - welding dirty and rusty stuff like on a farm or job site is better with stick any day. Thus stickwelding has it's place on the trail.

Just because mig is easly does not mean it is better.

Mig is easy to learn and really, really easy to do wrong. Anyone can mig.

Stick is hard to learn. You need to be a welder to use the stick process.

I'd say you can make an argument to have a whole set of welders any day

[Pin_Head]

John,
Not everyone can afford a MM250 as their first welder, but pretty much everyone can afford a used buzz box. No matter what you chose, you are going to have to learn how to weld with it. Depositing metal is not necessarily welding.

[colangut]

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

John,
Not everyone can afford a MM250 as their first welder, but pretty much everyone can afford a used buzz box. No matter what you chose, you are going to have to learn how to weld with it. Depositing metal is not necessarily welding.

I agree. Once again, wise words from Charlie.

My welding instructor, Clive Lugmayer, used to say that a "welder" was a machine and a "weldor" was a person who was trained to use it. Unfortunately, the word "welder" used to describe both. He also used to say that just because you own a welder that does not make one you one.

PS Thanks for the tire carrier

John

[colangut]

LULU

Here are some pics of my truck to give you some ideas on how to fix yours.

I bent up the quarters out of 16G cold rolled and used a piece of 8'' water main to bend them around.

The rear of the body is 2x2 tube with a 1/8'' wall thickness. I used a small piece of 16 bent at 90 to join the rear floor to the rear 2x2.

PM me with your email address and I can send you some more pics

Note the body braces - need to do so to keep everything in alinement.

Also note the interrupted style welds - a series of spot welds vs short stitches. Lay down a tic tac sized bead, wait for it to stop glowing in your mask and they lay down another one. Use .023 wire and 75/25 mix. Keep your stick out at about 1 cm and remember, "tight is right, clean, shiney and bright" when it comes to welding, prep is everything. If stuff fits well together, is clean and the welder is setup right, it's pretty darn easy.

[colangut]

Here is a pic of the way I welded the rear floor to the 2x2 square

You can see the series of spot welds vs. one long weld - done this way to reduce warping.

This type of weld is not idea for roll cages, motor mounts, etc but is a great way to control heat for sheet metal welds. The newer Miller 252 and FJ40 Charles favorite, the MM200 both have a feature to do this for you automatically by setting up a spot - stich times.

Lincoln offers a welder in the medium price range that has an optional add on module to do this. It's called a power mig 180 and it also the infinite adjustment on the heat that the lower end Miller and Hobart machines don't offer. Both of these features are cool, but I wish Hobart and Miller offered them as I prefer those brands. None the less, with some rust restoration to do, this might be a machine to consider. If you have a really good sense of timing and rhythm you might not need these features. I really like the stitch feature and I am considering buying one just to do rust-o-ration with.

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Have fun with it.

John