Time for a new water heater

[Buckru]

The water heater, most probably call it a hot water heater which makes no sense to me, is heading South. I have never installed one much less know anything about them and could use some help.

Pertinent Info.....
Family of 4. Two children under the age of 3. Wife and I plan to buy a new house in two-four years and maybe rent out our current residence. The unit is electric, unfortunately. I don't know how many gallons the current unit holds.
We run the dishwasher 2-3 times a week. Most laundry is done in cold water, sometimes warm.

Questions..
1. How do you determine the volume needed to get the right size?
2. Is there a way to determine the ROI for purchasing a more expensive but energy efficient model?
3. Can a less efficient model be made more efficient by insulating the unit
4. Any tips and tricks for removal and installing a new unit?

When it comes to this stuff I really don't have a clue as to what I'm doing or talking about. So if the info or questions need more clarification, I'll post up what you need.

Thanks,
Buck Buchanan

[-Spike-]

If what you have worked in terms of size, replace it with similar. 40 gallons is the smallest I would go, preferrably larger. Or, look into an on-demand heater if you want efficiency- not to mention the extra storage space you get without the tank. I did one of those last year and got a tax credit on the full amount of installation. Not cheap though.
Wrapping a new water heater with extra insulation is a waste of time IMO. Feel the outside of the tank. If it's at room temp, extra insulation isn't going to do anything for you.
Installation- empty the old unit. Make sure to disconnect the power before draining. Replace the shutoff valve with a ball valve, and I always plumb with flexible copper lines that have female pipe thread connectors at both ends, similar to garden hose ends with the same type gasket seals. Usually there's a need to solder something during the installation, but if you use these supply lines and also use a threaded shutoff ball valve, there will be no need for a torch the next time you need a new water heater. Or, if you're insanely lucky, the last guy who changed it thought like that.

-Spike

[3_puppies]

we changed ours last spring, straight forward, just installed another shutoff valve on top. other than that is was a direct bolt-in install. even the gas line was right on.

if installing a replacement....make sure it has the dip tube in it

we looked into ondemand/tankless but for us it wasn't going to work with our well water to good. mineral buildup. bigger gas line install needed also a newer flu to handle the extra exhaust.

[KLF]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

Wrapping a new water heater with extra insulation is a waste of time IMO. Feel the outside of the tank. If it's at room temp, extra insulation isn't going to do anything for you.

Wrap that room-temp tank, then slide your hand under the wrap a few days later. I'll be plenty warm in there.

I like putting union fittings on the supply and return lines. A lot easier to pull it out and put the new one in next time. If the lines have gate valves on them, take them off and throw them away, put ball valves on.

[MoJ]

For a family of 4 50ga would be the minimum. Building code for new residential construction in my county specifies a min of 50. The purchase cost b/n 40 and 50 is minimal.

[Buckru]

Thanks for the help. I'll be giving it a go this weekend.

Buck Buchanan

[webelk6]

I went with a Noritz tankless water heater. I will never go back to the old style. I also have 4 kids and a wife. We had a 40 gal gas heater, the Noritz is also gas, and the savings is already tremendous.

[Hugh Heifer]

Originally Posted by webelk6

I went with a Noritz tankless water heater. I will never go back to the old style. I also have 4 kids and a wife. We had a 40 gal gas heater, the Noritz is also gas, and the savings is already tremendous.

I also think this is the way to go. The first time I saw these I lived in Puerto Rico and conventional heaters took a beating in the island. Those tankless "hot water on deman" units are the bomb. They are often significantly more expensive then conventional but IMO well worth it.

[beaufort-fj60]

Originally Posted by Hugh Heifer

They are often significantly more expensive then conventional but IMO well worth it.

significantly = 4x as much.. 40 gallon is about 230 clams.. decent tankless is about 1000+ clams, then tag on installation. I was quoted $1600 for a tankless install about two weeks ago. It would of replaced a 40 gallon. If you have the money get a tankless.

[Hugh Heifer]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

significantly = 4x as much.. 40 gallon is about 230 clams.. decent tankless is about 1000+ clams, then tag on installation. I was quoted $1600 for a tankless install about two weeks ago. It would of replaced a 40 gallon. If you have the money get a tankless.

Wow. Funny they were much cheaper in the Caribbean. I noticed they were more back on the mainland. Even cheaper outside the US (like on St. Martin). I can not vouch for the brand or quality if those, however.

[Toyo FJ40]

Originally Posted by KLF

Wrap that room-temp tank, then slide your hand under the wrap a few days later. I'll be plenty warm in there.

I like putting union fittings on the supply and return lines. A lot easier to pull it out and put the new one in next time. If the lines have gate valves on them, take them off and throw them away, put ball valves on.

Use the dielectric unions (they sell them at plumbing supplys) they break the elecrical conection between the copper pipes and the steel tank which protect against galvanic corrosion.

Kevin

[webelk6]

Originally Posted by Hugh Heifer

I also think this is the way to go. The first time I saw these I lived in Puerto Rico and conventional heaters took a beating in the island. Those tankless "hot water on deman" units are the bomb. They are often significantly more expensive then conventional but IMO well worth it.

Noritz has some really nice rebates as well. I know my plumber and got a smokin deal at about $800 installed

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by webelk6

I went with a Noritz tankless water heater. I will never go back to the old style. I also have 4 kids and a wife. We had a 40 gal gas heater, the Noritz is also gas, and the savings is already tremendous.

Yes but you now have endless hot water. How do you get teenagers out of the shower?

This is the one remaining issue for me prior to going tankless.

[webelk6]

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

Yes but you now have endless hot water. How do you get teenagers out of the shower?

This is the one remaining issue for me prior to going tankless.

True. However after about a 3 month turn around our gas bill went down $50. To me that is huge. And I am always monitoring the 2 boys, ; Yelling"Hurry up, you have 3 minutes" , about 3 times......

[haystax]

FineHomebuilding mag just did a big story on water heaters - they say a savings of about 19% is what you will see from a tankless heater compared to standard however since you never get out of the shower you probably end up using more water and more power than a conventional.

Article suggests a 190,000btu with .82 or better energy factor for your size family -

I'm a little skeptical about full life cycle costs of tankless heaters and wonder if they are really worth the investment. At less than full flow, the heater short cycles and that is never good in any type of machine. You will also be out of hot water during a power outage (assuming you have a pressure tank or utility service) and hard water will eat up a tankless way faster than an anodized tank heater. Sediment also has no where to go and utility lines w/ water hammer can send junk into your tankless that you never knew was there before with a tank model. This is my opinion as a homeowner looking to build new based on a winter's worth of online, magazine research and plumber ?'s - obviously there are people who are happy with them as well but i believe it is too early to tell on a full life-cycle ROI type analysis. A near 100% efficiency tank heater is pretty bulletproof and would probably serve you well in your specific circumstance IMO

I would suggest subscribing to the online magazine for some really good ideas and no-nonsense articles. Especially if you are looking at building or buying a new home in the near future this magazine has been a GREAT resource for me. Good luck

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by haystax

FineHomebuilding mag just did a big story on water heaters - they say a savings of about 19% is what you will see from a tankless heater compared to standard however since you never get out of the shower you probably end up using more water and more power than a conventional.

Article suggests a 190,000btu with .82 or better energy factor for your size family -

I would suggest subscribing to the online magazine for some really good ideas and no-nonsense articles. Especially if you are looking at building or buying a new home in the near future this magazine has been a GREAT resource for me. Good luck

Wow 190K BTU. My old forced air furnace was 150K BTU and was quite noisey. (We could hear it from anywhere in the house.) I suggest noise might be another factor to consider where to locate and install a tankless WH.

When my teenagers move we will purchase one.

Home Power is another very useful magazine that deals with various alternate energy water and space heating systems.

[AJP]

Sorry to hijack the thread a little ... but along the same lines...

I just bought a condensing boiler (very lightly "used") for a radiant floor heating application...have read the associated manuals/literature many times and slowly making sense of how it works ... I am curious if anyone has an opinion on the domestic hot water tanks that use a coil to transfer boiler heat to a DHW storage tank ... I will be using propane and not sure whether a "standalone" propane fired water heater/storage would be better or if the indirect water heater/storage is a better way..
the boiler claims 15,000-150,000btu/hr and 92.6% AFUE, 97% on radiant slab

[-Spike-]

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

Wow 190K BTU. My old forced air furnace was 150K BTU and was quite noisey. (We could hear it from anywhere in the house.) I suggest noise might be another factor to consider where to locate and install a tankless WH.

Mine (Paloma, 199,000 BTU) is quiet. The only audible noise comes from the fan that drives the exhaust, no more than a quiet bathroom fan. You can hear the heater come on if you are in the same room or the adjacent bathroom.

-Spike

[webelk6]

Originally Posted by haystax

FineHomebuilding mag just did a big story on water heaters - they say a savings of about 19% is what you will see from a tankless heater compared to standard however since you never get out of the shower you probably end up using more water and more power than a conventional.

Article suggests a 190,000btu with .82 or better energy factor for your size family -

I'm a little skeptical about full life cycle costs of tankless heaters and wonder if they are really worth the investment. At less than full flow, the heater short cycles and that is never good in any type of machine. You will also be out of hot water during a power outage (assuming you have a pressure tank or utility service) and hard water will eat up a tankless way faster than an anodized tank heater. Sediment also has no where to go and utility lines w/ water hammer can send junk into your tankless that you never knew was there before with a tank model. This is my opinion as a homeowner looking to build new based on a winter's worth of online, magazine research and plumber ?'s - obviously there are people who are happy with them as well but i believe it is too early to tell on a full life-cycle ROI type analysis. A near 100% efficiency tank heater is pretty bulletproof and would probably serve you well in your specific circumstance IMO

I would suggest subscribing to the online magazine for some really good ideas and no-nonsense articles. Especially if you are looking at building or buying a new home in the near future this magazine has been a GREAT resource for me. Good luck

I appreciate your reseach, but if you check European markets, I think you will find they have been around since the '70's. IMHO I will never go back from tankless. It only runs when you turn on the hot water.

[haystax]

I've seen and used tankless heaters in Europe - they usually hang in the shower stall under the showerhead and are handy for storing shampoo bottles. I am not doubting Euro technology as I am using a Buderus mod/con boiler from Germany, Grundfos circ pumps from Denmark, and Uponor PEX and manifolds from Sweden in my heating and domestic hot water system -

I am also not denying any efficiency gains compared to an el cheapo standard tank heater - but many have compared apples to oranges in this thread, and I hope that you are as happy with the heater five years from now

Originally Posted by webelk6

I appreciate your reseach, but if you check European markets, I think you will find they have been around since the '70's. IMHO I will never go back from tankless. It only runs when you turn on the hot water.

[webelk6]

Originally Posted by haystax

I've seen and used tankless heaters in Europe - they usually hang in the shower stall under the showerhead and are handy for storing shampoo bottles. I am not doubting Euro technology as I am using a Buderus mod/con boiler from Germany, Grundfos circ pumps from Denmark, and Uponor PEX and manifolds from Sweden in my heating and domestic hot water system -

I am also not denying any efficiency gains compared to an el cheapo standard tank heater - but many have compared apples to oranges in this thread, and I hope that you are as happy with the heater five years from now

I will keep you posted. my previous standard water heater(sears) lasted 14 years

[GeoRoss]

Sediment isn't an issue with a tankless as the water is always moving. There isn't really time for it to settle. And any sediment that does form is flushed through the system at the next usage.

Many tankless do not require electricity. They run off some sort of piezo dodad water wheel thingamajob. So electricity loss of service isn't an issue. Gas loss of issue is a problem for both, but more so for a tankless.

We went with tankless units more for the space savings than energy efficiency. I wish I had ponied up for a Paloma or Rinnai, but went Bosch.

Originally Posted by haystax

FineHomebuilding mag just did a big story on water heaters - they say a savings of about 19% is what you will see from a tankless heater compared to standard however since you never get out of the shower you probably end up using more water and more power than a conventional.

Article suggests a 190,000btu with .82 or better energy factor for your size family -

I'm a little skeptical about full life cycle costs of tankless heaters and wonder if they are really worth the investment. At less than full flow, the heater short cycles and that is never good in any type of machine. You will also be out of hot water during a power outage (assuming you have a pressure tank or utility service) and hard water will eat up a tankless way faster than an anodized tank heater. Sediment also has no where to go and utility lines w/ water hammer can send junk into your tankless that you never knew was there before with a tank model. This is my opinion as a homeowner looking to build new based on a winter's worth of online, magazine research and plumber ?'s - obviously there are people who are happy with them as well but i believe it is too early to tell on a full life-cycle ROI type analysis. A near 100% efficiency tank heater is pretty bulletproof and would probably serve you well in your specific circumstance IMO

I would suggest subscribing to the online magazine for some really good ideas and no-nonsense articles. Especially if you are looking at building or buying a new home in the near future this magazine has been a GREAT resource for me. Good luck

[-Spike-]

Originally Posted by GeoRoss

I wish I had ponied up for a Paloma or Rinnai, but went Bosch.

Why, did you hear something about any of those? I bought the Paloma 'cause it was available and I couldn't find anything negative about the company, but I'd never heard of them before. I like Bosch power tools...

-Spike