[D'Animal]

Been thinking about going Solar.

I installed a sunchasing SHARP panel on a post at the neighbors property. It is one of the units that tracks the sun and moves on it own. It does it by using solar heat, freon filled ballast tubes and shock absorbers, etc.

It generates 1,000 watts and total cost was $15k. Neighbor payed for it and I installed it.

I'm thinking about covering the roof of my shop with stationary panels. All my research has me leaning towards Sharp brand.

Anybody heard anything good or bad about them?

Anybody have a different brand I should be looking at?

[45Kevin]

1000 watts for $15k. That's not enought to light your garage or toast a piece of bread. You must have your numbers wrong.

Other than that, I don't know a lot about solar power generation but will follow this thread to learn.

I have been thinking about solar water heating to help out my gas fired water heater. Still at the paper stage though.

[D'Animal]

He runs the well on it so it can fill the two 5,000gal water tank to keep the Vineyard watered. He also keep the batteries in his Big RV charged with it. He is not on the grid at all.

I am on the grid, so during the day I will be generating a surplus back into the system and in the evening using it up. At the end of a 12month period the electric company wants you to be the same place you started.

[D'Animal]

I forgot to mention that in California your price per wattage fluctuates throughout the day. The most expensive rate is 11:00am to 4:00pm monday through friday. If you use a lot of electricity during that time period it will cost you dearly. That happens to be when the sun is at it's strongest so, I'm thinking Solar is the way to go.

I cannot put up a electricity generating windmill since the CCR prohibit it. My old Aeromotor 602 windmill is just fine since it recirculates the water in my pond and this is cattle country.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by D'Animal

Been thinking about going Solar.

[...]

It generates 1,000 watts and total cost was $15k.

Unless you are in a remote area where it costs a fortune to get connected, at $15 a watt is not cost effective considering their initial cost and the cost of maintenance (batteries...) over the lifespan of the system. What is the warranty on the one you installed?

Nice experiment otherwise. I saw one of those types of panels on a house many years ago, but it was inoperative. The owner let it go, as it cost a fortune to repair.

Of course, technology has changed quite a bit since I first looked into solar 30 years ago; I've followed the development of high effeiciency systems since but have come to the comclusion that installed cost shall not exceed $5 a watt to be cost effective. So feel free to correct me and to prove me wrong.

[firetruck41]

I did some reading on the interwebs a month or two ago, really dampened my enthusiasm. the payoff was about 20-25 years, and the expected lif of panels are about 20-25 years. A lot of initial investment and little to no gain in the end...

[tltaylor22]

I would hold off on any solar power for a year or two more. Google "thin film solar". These could potentially change the solar market. They are far cheaper and are currently being made for large megawatt installs. In the next few years they should start into the consumer market. They will bring the payback period into a range that is reasonable. Bang for the buck right now is solar hot water. There are a lot of rebates available and payback is 3-5yrs with a top of the line vac. tube set up. I hope to get the solar hot water installed either before the fall or early in the spring.

[D'Animal]

Thanks

No batteries used in my neighbors system, yet. When he builds his house he is going to build a Battery House for the batteries.

Is $5 a watt a good fair price or it is a goal?

Originally Posted by 83bj60

Unless you are in a remote area where it costs a fortune to get connected, at $15 a watt is not cost effective considering their initial cost and the cost of maintenance (batteries...) over the lifespan of the system. What is the warranty on the one you installed?

[D'Animal]

I been holding off and waiting for the new technoloy for about 6 years. They is always something better coming out in a few years and when it comes out they sell off the not the newest technology systems at a reduced price. The 25 year return on investment seems normal for a full system.

Originally Posted by tltaylor22

I would hold off on any solar power for a year or two more. Google "thin film solar". These could potentially change the solar market. They are far cheaper and are currently being made for large megawatt installs. In the next few years they should start into the consumer market. They will bring the payback period into a range that is reasonable. Bang for the buck right now is solar hot water. There are a lot of rebates available and payback is 3-5yrs with a top of the line vac. tube set up. I hope to get the solar hot water installed either before the fall or early in the spring.

We do not use enugh hot water to justify a solar hot water system. Just the wife and me.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by D'Animal

Thanks

No batteries used in my neighbors system, yet. When he builds his house he is going to build a Battery House for the batteries.

Is $5 a watt a good fair price or it is a goal?

More of a goal than a fair price.

At $5 a watt, with batteries and system installation you are reaching cost efficiency within approximately 10 years in our area, at around 0.07 to 0.10 a kwh. After 10 years it's money in your pocket, but batteries will start to fail and the panels effectiveness will dinminish. And it doesn't include the necessary maintenance and monitoring of the system.

At more than $10 a watt it's cost effective only in cases where you have more than 1/2 mile of cable to install (aerial). Much more cost effective if your building code requires armoured underground cabling.

Anyway, this is not based on hard actual figures, but on a cost estimate I did 20 years ago for a house I was building then, extrapolated to present days costs, so it's definitely not a hard, accurate figures.

For instance, cost of quasi sine wave inverters have dropped considerably and they can be used for many applications, lead acid batteries have not noticeably increased in cost and solar panels haven't dropped as much as prediccted. On the other hand cost of copper has risen substancially, which may make running long power cables less attractive and solar, more attractive.

At the time I studied this, the mid eighties, it was believed that by 2010, the cost per watt of solar panels would be around $5, which would make the system cost competitive with the rising utility costs. We have yet to see that, of course.

Hopwe this helps more than it confuses

[LandCruiserPhil]

15k for 1000w grid tie system is high from my research. If you have mostly clear days a tracking system is not worth it IMO. Located in CA you get an average of about 5 - 6 hours of usable light. With a 1000w grid tie system chances are you wont be getting much credit back with Net-metering probably none in the summer (AC) and little if any in the winter unless you are very efficient with your use of power today.

I am licensed to buy and install PV systems in AZ and in the beginning stages of my first system for me. Im going with a 2500w grid tie system with net-metering at a cost of about ~15k. Based on the calculations it will provide about 20-25% of my average daily usage. Saving will average about $40-$50 per month. With the credits available from our local power co , state, and federal I figure about a 5 year payback. Not great but when you look at cost saving over the years and the increased value of my home I feel it all good. After a year (per power company contract) I can do what ever I want with the system. At that point if I want I can sell the system move it to a new location or power up a remote summer home. If you can afford the up front cost I see it as a no loss investment over time.

I need something really green in my life to offset the ~7.5 MPG I get in my daily driven gas F450 dually.

[sandcruiser]

you might PM Gifu, or PM me and I'll put you in touch with him directly (I don't think he checks mud as much as Pirate)

He has been selling/installing solar in the Bay Area of CA for the last 7-10 years. He did the system @ my parent's place and they are immensely happy with it.

First rule of thumb: get rid of serious energy wasting appliances like side-by-side fridges, that extra fridge in the garage (if you really need more space, consider a deep freeze, very efficient, but an old fridge... bad)

Anyway- he's a good friend to many folks here on Mud and does great work. Did Mudrak's system, for example.

[tltaylor22]

Originally Posted by LandCruiserPhil

I am licensed to buy and install PV systems in AZ and in the beginning stages of my first system for me. Im going with a 2500w grid tie system with net-metering at a cost of about ~15k. Based on the calculations it will provide about 20-25% of my average daily usage. Saving will average about $40-$50 per month. With the credits available from our local power co , state, and federal I figure about a 5 year payback. Not great but when you look at cost saving over the years and the increased value of my home I feel it all good. After a year (per power company contract) I can do what ever I want with the system. At that point if I want I can sell the system move it to a new location or power up a remote summer home. If you can afford the up front cost I see it as a no loss investment over time.

I need something really green in my life to offset the ~7.5 MPG I get in my daily driven gas F450 dually.

I have been thinnking about a career change. Do you do the solar thing full time or just a side job? Arizona must have some major credits to get a $15k system down to a 5 yr payback. Is 15k the wholesale price you buy it at? I'd do solar if I could get it paid back that fast. At $50/month for 5 yrs that only covers $3000, leaving $12k going toward credits. Utah isn't as friendly. I think we can get $750 from the power company if you get picked(they have a very small amount of credits available every year). The state had a 20% up to $2k dollars and then the federal on top of that still made my payback like 22yrs.

[gifu]

Couple things here folks... for those outside CA, OR, CO, HI and AZ... the financials aren't there yet. Average insolation (sunlight hours) vs. per kWH price for local power vs. local incentives dictate the ROI and NPV of these systems.
For those waiting for "new technologies"... well, in CA, OR, CO, HI and AZ, by the time these technologies are actually on the market and selling at the promised prices, the incentives will be long gone. The demand worldwide for PV power will far outweigh the supply for the next decade. All these new thin film and "nano solar" companies have no track record, a very unstable product, and so far have only produced press releases. However, i'm still rooting for them; when PV panels drop to $1/watt (current is $3.5-$4 wholesale), the PV market will no longer be limited to areas with incentives. But, I recommend the boring old, tried and true, crystalline framed modules. This is not new technology... these companies have been making PV panels since the late 1950's. Stick to a major name-brand company, and you'll be fine: sharp, sanyo, kyocera, BP, SolarWorld, and even Evergreen (one of the few U.S. companies)

Now, regarding the ROI on systems in the above mentioned states (well, wait, let me limit it to areas we have offices: CA, OR, AZ)... if you are currently paying more then an average of $200 per month on your electric bill, we can provide a PV system that will be an infinite ROI. Why infinite? Because the payment on the system will be less then what you are currently paying for electricity; ie: immediate positive cash flow. This is no joke, it's cheaper to go Solar then to keep giving your money to the utility company every month.

And the savings will grow over time. The past 20 years have seen 6.7% rise in energy costs... and the past 10 years have seen 13-30% rise in energy costs. And it's going up... CA makes 51% of it's power from natural gas which has gone through the roof. Another 20% or so from Hydro, but with no water behind the damns, they were just approved by the CPUC to rasie their rates again.

Hey LandCruiserPhil, want a job? We are hiring like crazy in AZ.

[-Spike-]

Originally Posted by gifu

Hey LandCruiserPhil, want a job? We are hiring like crazy in AZ.

I'd be jumping at that, if I could have May through September off.

-Spike (There's no way in hell you'd get me near a roof or attic in those months.)

[D'Animal]

So are you in California?

Originally Posted by gifu

Couple things here folks... for those outside CA, OR, CO, HI and AZ... the financials aren't there yet. Average insolation (sunlight hours) vs. per kWH price for local power vs. local incentives dictate the ROI and NPV of these systems.
For those waiting for "new technologies"... well, in CA, OR, CO, HI and AZ, by the time these technologies are actually on the market and selling at the promised prices, the incentives will be long gone. The demand worldwide for PV power will far outweigh the supply for the next decade. All these new thin film and "nano solar" companies have no track record, a very unstable product, and so far have only produced press releases. However, i'm still rooting for them; when PV panels drop to $1/watt (current is $3.5-$4 wholesale), the PV market will no longer be limited to areas with incentives. But, I recommend the boring old, tried and true, crystalline framed modules. This is not new technology... these companies have been making PV panels since the late 1950's. Stick to a major name-brand company, and you'll be fine: sharp, sanyo, kyocera, BP, SolarWorld, and even Evergreen (one of the few U.S. companies)

Now, regarding the ROI on systems in the above mentioned states (well, wait, let me limit it to areas we have offices: CA, OR, AZ)... if you are currently paying more then an average of $200 per month on your electric bill, we can provide a PV system that will be an infinite ROI. Why infinite? Because the payment on the system will be less then what you are currently paying for electricity; ie: immediate positive cash flow. This is no joke, it's cheaper to go Solar then to keep giving your money to the utility company every month.

And the savings will grow over time. The past 20 years have seen 6.7% rise in energy costs... and the past 10 years have seen 13-30% rise in energy costs. And it's going up... CA makes 51% of it's power from natural gas which has gone through the roof. Another 20% or so from Hydro, but with no water behind the damns, they were just approved by the CPUC to rasie their rates again.

Hey LandCruiserPhil, want a job? We are hiring like crazy in AZ.

[crzrcrzy]

I installed a solar system in our home in Alaska. It included 10 Matrix 80w solar panels, 16 trojan 6v batteries linked in a 24volt series, a Trace 24volt inverter, and an outback mppt charge controller. grand totall about $8,500. This system will run a small modern household with no lack of power. (except of course during our Alaska winters I never really dug into the cost vs payback. For me it was purely for the sake of being independent from the grid. Plus it's just fun to tinker with somethig new

[gifu]

We are in California, Oregon, and Arizona; SolarCity.

[D'Animal]

OK, I checked with the neighbor.

The $15k price included
- Pulling his new 5hp well pump set at 580'.
- Buying and installing a 1.5hp solar capable well pump and having it set at 140'.
- 280' of 4 gauge wire to run from the panels to the well.
- Conduit to run the wire in.
- Rental of Trencher to bury the wire.
- 21' section of 6" galvanised pipe for the "post"
- 10 , 80lb bags of concrete for the above post.
- Beer consumed during the digging of 5' hole.
- Beer consumed during setting the post and concreting in.

When I asked him what the total cost was, he figured up the total cost.

He said the panel system itself was close to $5 per watt once shipping was figured in.

[D'Animal]

How does a system wire into your exsisting electrical system?

Does it have to use a special meter on the main breaker box?

Gifu, PM me and let me know if you want to give me a price on a system.

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by D'Animal

How does a system wire into your exsisting electrical system?

Does it have to use a special meter on the main breaker box?

Gifu, PM me and let me know if you want to give me a price on a system.

There are two types of systems. Grid tied and a battery system.

A grid inverter receives a DC input of 12 to 600 volts DC and converts DC to AC and synchronises with the grid. Some install two meters, one for production one for use. Some have smart meters and only one is required.

Grid is way cheaper. But when the power goes out and its dark you may be hosed. A battery system will offer quiet power and in the dark also. Batteries are expensive and require some attention and maintenance. I enjoy playing with high current DC.

A guy I know installed a very large system of panels and does grid tied. The advantage is PGE buys his power at a lower rate than usual price, PLUS he can now BUY power from PGE at the much lower rate. He lives in Grass Valley and now heats his home with electricity.

Plus he got a rebate so the install cost him half of full price.

To get a rebate the sytem must be installed by their contractor.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by D'Animal

OK, I checked with the neighbor.


- Pulling his new 5hp well pump set at 580'.
- Buying and installing a 1.5hp solar capable well pump and having it set at 140'.

Why would he reduce the set depth on the well from 580' to 140'???

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by Mace

Why would he reduce the set depth on the well from 580' to 140'???

Probably a DC pump. Lots of voltage drop. Perhaps he has a very high water table..

[D'Animal]

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

Probably a DC pump. Lots of voltage drop. Perhaps he has a very high water table..

Yep, 12volt pump.


He has water at 60' and a very good supply of it. No real need to put the pump deeper.

[Mace]

Then why was the original pump set to 580'


if it was low enough to warrant that, it will be there again.

BTW, it does not hurt anything to set the pump too deep. The amount of lift does not really change. Other then a slight amount of increased friction.

[sandcruiser]

but 880 feet of 4 ga wire is some money
and the voltage drop @ 120' has to be quite a bit less than 500+', especially with 12v.
I would think.

[LandCruiserPhil]

Originally Posted by sandcruiser

but 880 feet of 4 ga wire is some money
and the voltage drop @ 120' has to be quite a bit less than 500+', especially with 12v.
I would think.

.78/ft in todays marketand that single conductor

[Mace]

something funny about 12 volt and 4 gauge wire tho

[D'Animal]

Originally Posted by Mace

It does not hurt anything to set the pump too deep. The amount of lift does not really change. Other then a slight amount of increased friction.

That is what I told him. If the water table is 60' from the cap, it does not really matter how deep the pump is because it is only pushing it 60'.

He rambled on about voltage drop and how solar does not like voltage drops etc.

He reused the same wire for the 12v system that he had running the 5 hp pump motor. He cut up the pipe and used the pieces to stake around trees.

[LandCruiserPhil]

Originally Posted by D'Animal

That is what I told him. If the water table is 60' from the cap, it does not really matter how deep the pump is because it is only pushing it 60'.

He rambled on about voltage drop and how solar does not like voltage drops etc.

He reused the same wire for the 12v system that he had running the 5 hp pump motor. He cut up the pipe and used the pieces to stake around trees.

Don't overlook that when supply voltage is decreased amperage increases.