[anavant]

Hey all. So I am about to install a factory bumper with winch on my 2001 LC. I am new to winching and wondering if I need to have a dual battery set up for this? Can I run it safely on my existing battery ?

[rusty_tlc]

I run a single battery with my 8274 on the FJ40. It sees a lot of pretty hard use and I've never felt I needed more than a single battery for the winch.

If I ever get the scratch up for a Engle fridge I'll install an aux battery then.

[EOE_overland]

Yeah one battery should be fine. If you're worried, upgrade to an Optima Dual-purpose battery (yellow top). If you add more lights, inverter, or (like rusty mentioned) a fridge- something that will load your battery with the engine off, then definitely add a second battery. Happy winching!

[anavant]

Thanks for the feedback guys !

[solidfrontaxle]

If you plan on doing winching, especially on a heavy vehicle like that, a deep cycle (optima yellow or blue top, etc) battery is a must. Normal batteries aren't indended to be run like that.

A dual battery system is nice if:
-you need extra pulling power that a single battery can't provide (make sure your alternator can handle this as well)
-you kill your truck while winching and can't restart and you have an automatic so can't push start.

If you see yourself in either of these situations and feel that they are inacceptable, then get a dual battery system. If you're not planning on getting super stuck, planning on using a snatch block alot, always wheel with a buddy, never stray too far into the wild, then you'll be fine without dual batteries.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by solidfrontaxle

If you plan on doing winching, especially on a heavy vehicle like that, a deep cycle (optima yellow or blue top, etc) battery is a must. Normal batteries aren't indended to be run like that.

A dual battery system is nice if:
-you need extra pulling power that a single battery can't provide (make sure your alternator can handle this as well)
-you kill your truck while winching and can't restart and you have an automatic so can't push start.

If you see yourself in either of these situations and feel that they are inacceptable, then get a dual battery system. If you're not planning on getting super stuck, planning on using a snatch block alot, always wheel with a buddy, never stray too far into the wild, then you'll be fine without dual batteries.

Deep cycle batteries are not designed for the fast discharge required in winching, a starting battery or one of the newer dual application batteries would be better suited.

An alternator will not be able to handle the current requirements of a winch. A high output alternator will however help with the recovery time of the battey.

If your dual battery is set up to help with the winch it will be of no use when you need to start your truck. However if you have the second battery isolated from they main system (except for the charging circuit) it will act as a back up battery. IMHO this is the prudent way to do things.

[stuckinnz]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

I run a single battery with my 8274 on the FJ40. It sees a lot of pretty hard use and I've never felt I needed more than a single battery for the winch

If I ever get the scratch up for a Engle fridge I'll install an aux battery then.

(sorry for the hi-jack)
Hey Rusty what battery do you have?
I have a new 600cca battery and then I got the 8274. Everything I've seen suggests a 650cca, out of experience what do you reccon.

I intend to get another battery after rust repairs,new top, repaint, front seat replacement, 50m winch cable new head lights etc,etc,etc So I'd like to use this one for a year or 2.

[FJ40_owner]

I run two identical 650 CCA starting batteries in parallel. I use a constant duty solenoid to connect them. I run my 12 VDC accessories of my number two battery.

The winch is connected to the starting battery (#1) because it is closest to the winch.

You should not operate a winch continously, allow it to cool and your batteries to cool and recharge as well. I winch for thirty seconds and cool/charge for thirty seconds etc.

And you will ruin a deep cycle battery winching or starting.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by stuckinnz

(sorry for the hi-jack)
Hey Rusty what battery do you have?
I have a new 600cca battery and then I got the 8274. Everything I've seen suggests a 650cca, out of experience what do you reccon.

I intend to get another battery after rust repairs,new top, repaint, front seat replacement, 50m winch cable new head lights etc,etc,etc So I'd like to use this one for a year or 2.

I had an Orbital, it was a battery made by Optima and labeled for Kragen. It worked great for a coiuple of years. Then I left my CB on all winter and killed it. So I got a new battery this spring. It is an Optima Red top 1000CA / 800CCA.

[stuckinnz]

Cheers Rusty I might have to take the winching easy for a while or grab a spare just in case

[EOE_overland]

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

And you will ruin a deep cycle battery winching or starting.

Why do you say that? You won't get as many amps as quickly as a start battery, but why do you think it will ruin it?

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by EOE_overland

Why do you say that? You won't get as many amps as quickly as a start battery, but why do you think it will ruin it?

Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need. Although these an be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge.

You may get away with using a deep cycle battery for winching for a while but it will eventually fail. Remember a winch can draw up to 3 or 4 hundred amps.

A deep cycle can supply relativley small Amp draws <50 for a lenghth of time vrs a starting battery that outputs very large current for a very short time.

The DC battery plates cannot take the extreme high current draw. I am told it warps the plates.

My .02

[mobi-arc]

I question the concept of the "dual" performing battery....perfect for starting and deep cycle applications???? I'm thinking it's great for marketing but not realistic in real world applications specifically because the chemistry and physical structure clearly have to be different for two completely different applications.

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need. Although these an be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge.

You may get away with using a deep cycle battery for winching for a while but it will eventually fail. Remember a winch can draw up to 3 or 4 hundred amps.

A deep cycle can supply relativley small Amp draws <50 for a lenghth of time vrs a starting battery that outputs very large current for a very short time.

The DC battery plates cannot take the extreme high current draw. I am told it warps the plates.

My .02

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by mobi-arc

I question the concept of the "dual" performing battery....perfect for starting and deep cycle applications???? I'm thinking it's great for marketing but not realistic in real world applications specifically because the chemistry and physical structure clearly have to be different for two completely different applications.

I suspect that the dual use battery is a compromise between the two designs.

[EOE_overland]

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

The DC battery plates cannot take the extreme high current draw. I am told it warps the plates.

My .02

I'm familiar with the battery designs and discharge rates for start and deep cycle batteries... but I've never heard about the plates on DC's warping? Where did you hear it? I'm not calling it into question, just curious about it. A good portion of my job is installing/replacing battery systems on boats and nearly all starting applications there use deep cycles (against my wishes). Smaller boats can crank up with a small marine start battery. But anything bigger than that really only comes in a thick-plate design (Group 31, 4D, 8D...). They see frequent loads at our above the 3-400A range from extended cranking and windlass (etc) use. I've never heard about DC plate warpage and would definitely like to know if it's an issue with smaller batteries!

That being said, I agree about the start battery being a better choice for starting/winching applications. When I get my dual-batt setup in my truck, it will have the starter and winch (not on the truck yet) tied directly to the start battery. The lights, stereo, nav, inverter will all be tied to a DC with a switchable parallel in between.

My experience with the dual-purpose Optima was good in my Rover: gave quick starts, but seemed to extend the discharge curve a little further than a start battery.

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

I suspect that the dual use battery is a compromise between the two designs.

I believe this is true. I'm trying to search the back of my mind, but I think they make the plates a little thicker than a start battery and a little thinner than a deep cycle. I don't think I've seen one cutaway, but I'm sure it is as rusty described it.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by EOE_overland

I'm familiar with the battery designs and discharge rates for start and deep cycle batteries... but I've never heard about the plates on DC's warping? Where did you hear it? I'm not calling it into question, just curious about it. A good portion of my job is installing/replacing battery systems on boats and nearly all starting applications there use deep cycles (against my wishes). Smaller boats can crank up with a small marine start battery. But anything bigger than that really only comes in a thick-plate design (Group 31, 4D, 8D...). They see frequent loads at our above the 3-400A range from extended cranking and windlass (etc) use. I've never heard about DC plate warpage and would definitely like to know if it's an issue with smaller batteries!

That being said, I agree about the start battery being a better choice for starting/winching applications. When I get my dual-batt setup in my truck, it will have the starter and winch (not on the truck yet) tied directly to the start battery. The lights, stereo, nav, inverter will all be tied to a DC with a switchable parallel in between.

My experience with the dual-purpose Optima was good in my Rover: gave quick starts, but seemed to extend the discharge curve a little further than a start battery.



I believe this is true. I'm trying to search the back of my mind, but I think they make the plates a little thicker than a start battery and a little thinner than a deep cycle. I don't think I've seen one cutaway, but I'm sure it is as rusty described it.

I think the reason that deep cycle batteries are so common in boat applications is that they tend to sit for long times between use, at least in pleasure applications. Deep cycle batteries tend to hold charge better than starting batteries under those conditions.

[80t0ylc]

So, for an existing dual battery setup, with a Sure Power isolator; primary battery has original duties - starting and all accessories except winch; secondary battery is used solely for powering winch, what's the best battery for the secondary? I have been using a deep cycle and not been satisfied. After reading this thread I can see why I've gone through 4 DCs in 10 years.

[EOE_overland]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

I think the reason that deep cycle batteries are so common in boat applications is that they tend to sit for long times between use, at least in pleasure applications. Deep cycle batteries tend to hold charge better than starting batteries under those conditions.

Generally it's because boaters use their battery banks for running all their electrical doodads that they can't do without: Chartplotter, radar, cabin lights, toilet, blender, tv, radio, ...all at once , when they aren't starting their engine(s).

Originally Posted by 80t0ylc

I have been using a deep cycle and not been satisfied. After reading this thread I can see why I've gone through 4 deep DCs in 10 years.

Wow, maybe here's our DC warp example? For curiosity's sake, what make are the batteries and which battery is used as a voltage reference at your isolator?

[80t0ylc]

Originally Posted by EOE_overland

..........Wow, maybe here's our DC warp example? For curiosity's sake, what make are the batteries........

The first 2 were Interstate, third was bought at NAPA on sale (can't remember the brand) and the current one is a Kirkland (Costco special). Actually, it was 4 DCs in 16 years, same winch, 2 different isolators, 3 different rigs. My '94 FZJ, which I've had for 10 years, has gone through the last 3 batteries. I've only used the Sure isolator on my '94. The previous isolator on the other rigs was from JC Whitney. I figured that I wanted something better on my Landcruiser, so I invested in the Sure.

Originally Posted by EOE_overland

..........and which battery is used as a voltage reference at your isolator?

Primary. I'm assuming that by "voltage refernce", you mean primary. The Sure documentation refers to it as "main battery". The only connection from the aux. battery to my Toyota wiring is through the aux post of the isolator. Primary batteries seem to be fine and 4 ga. wire was used in the mod to Toyota wiring between alternator and isolator as well as wire from isolator aux post to aux battery.

[EOE_overland]

Yeah, should be the same. Isolators have to allow the alternator to sense the battery voltage in some way. Sounds like SurePower does it with your "Main BAttery?"

Primary. I'm assuming that by "voltage refernce", you mean primary. The Sure documentation refers to it as "main battery". The only connection from the aux. battery to my Toyota wiring is through the aux post of the isolator. Primary batteries seem to be fine and 4 ga. wire was used in the mod to Toyota wiring between alternator and isolator as well as wire from isolator aux post to aux battery.[/QUOTE]

[80t0ylc]

Originally Posted by EOE_overland

Yeah, should be the same. Isolators have to allow the alternator to sense the battery voltage in some way. Sounds like SurePower does it with your "Main BAttery?".......

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me.

So, it looks like the current thinking for a dedicated winch battery is to just run another starting battery - prolly the biggest (capacity-wise) that you can get?