[e9999]

was thinking about the issue of hydraulic vs electric.
Obviously, an argument that's used a lot in favor of the electric is that it can run with the engine stopped (as in stalled in a river, for example).

But I was wondering how long could one realistically expect to run a winch pulling a 6000 lbs truck off a tight spot with engine off? Assuming a truck size battery in good shape, say?


Yes, it surely depends on the load, but are we talking about a few seconds or a few minutes? I mean in the real world, if you did try that.

(And no, going by Ahr rating would surely be way off, I imagine)

[Cruiserdrew]

How long is a string?


Seriously, Eric, you gotta know it depends on the size of the winch, the depth of the stuck, the weight of the truck and the AH in the battery.

You live in California. There will be few places that require extended winching with the motor off. Like none.

In the real life places I've had to winch, and there have not been many, it's usually a few seconds and a few feet. Your battery can handle that.

Now if you lived in Alaska, things might be different.

[e9999]

obviously it depends on the circumstances but equally obviously one can get a feel for the magnitude of the capability. It's not like one typical truck size battery in good shape will give 3 seconds and the other one 3 hours for the same stuck.

OK, so you think it can go a few seconds. That's kind of obvious.

Anybody witnessed a winch running on battery alone to full depletion? How long? I'm hoping it could be 2 or 3 minutes at least and a good chunk of the cable length.

Obviously, I could try that, but I don't think that's so good for the battery. Which is why I'm asking.

[craptabulous]

Originally Posted by e9999

obviously it depends on the circumstances but equally obviously one can get a feel for the magnitude of the capability. It's not like one typical truck size battery in good shape will give 3 seconds and the other one 3 hours for the same stuck.

OK, so you think it can go a few seconds. That's kind of obvious.

Anybody witnessed a winch running on battery alone to full depletion? How long? I'm hoping it could be 2 or 3 minutes at least and a good chunk of the cable length.

Obviously, I could try that, but I don't think that's so good for the battery. Which is why I'm asking.

as long as you don't over heat the battery and you charge it up back to normal within a few days it won't do it any harm .

[e9999]

Originally Posted by craptabulous

as long as you don't over heat the battery and you charge it up back to normal within a few days it won't do it any harm .

well, I certainly have read in quite a few places that at least the regular lead acid batteries are not keen on being totally discharged. Deep cycle should be less of an issue, of course.
I may yet try in the interest of Science...

[fj40charles]

Not enough info to determine the run time of the winch. I suggest you buy some equipment and do a through test and report back.

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by fj40charles

Not enough info to determine the run time of the winch. I suggest you buy some equipment and do a through test and report back.

I'd like to see the same, maybe say 3 different but similar winches, like M10000, M12000, and M15000. Then use all the different batteries that fit in the 80 series compartment. Then vary the terrain, sand, mud, water. You could add in the effect of snatch blocks.

So get busy, we all need this info before SnT.

[e9999]

- the real bad engineer doesn't do any testing
- the not so good engineer will do mindless parametric studies
- the good engineer has enough understanding of real life engineering that he can deal with realistic order of magnitude estimates.

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by e9999

- the real bad engineer doesn't do any testing
- the not so good engineer will do mindless parametric studies
- the good engineer has enough understanding of real life engineering that he can deal with realistic order of magnitude estimates.

So are you saying you're an engineer? What kind and do you hold a PE license?

Also, what does, "realistic order of magnitude estimate" really mean?

[e9999]

First 2 on my Ignore list... not too soon... I suggest you do the same so you don't waste any more time chasing my threads.




Back to Tech: I'll post something up if I end up doing a test or find some info someplace. I'm going to guess 3 minutes with mine. Out on a limb. There ya go.

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by e9999

First 2 on my Ignore list... not too soon... I suggest you do the same so you don't waste any more time chasing my threads.




Back to Tech: I'll post something up if I end up doing a test or find some info someplace. I'm going to guess 3 minutes with mine. Out on a limb. There ya go.

Please don't flatter yourself. I don't "chase" anybody threads. Yours just happen to be near the top because you're usually asking multiple dumb a$$ questions with multiple new threads.

[shelfboy1]

i use a warn 8274 on my car trailer with an old battery i charge up when i load something.it will winch 2 or 3 cars up on the trailer with one charge or 1 6x6 almost.the battery is old and has been run down many times and it still recharges fine .it takes a couple minutes to winch each vehicle on the trailer .the trailer is 31" off the ground and i winched to full size pickups back to back on one charge up the ramps .hope this helps

[Trollhole]

I'm going to say 3-5 minutes. Depending on the load.

Should be about the same load as a car starter maybe a little more.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by shelfboy1

i use a warn 8274 on my car trailer with an old battery i charge up when i load something.it will winch 2 or 3 cars up on the trailer with one charge or 1 6x6 almost.the battery is old and has been run down many times and it still recharges fine .it takes a couple minutes to winch each vehicle on the trailer .the trailer is 31" off the ground and i winched to full size pickups back to back on one charge up the ramps .hope this helps

all right, one real data point.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

I'm going to say 3-5 minutes. Depending on the load.

Should be about the same load as a car starter maybe a little more.

good point about the starter.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by e9999

- the real bad engineer doesn't do any testing
- the not so good engineer will do mindless parametric studies
- the good engineer has enough understanding of real life engineering that he can deal with realistic order of magnitude estimates.

Before asking the question a good engineer would look at the load presented by the winch, compare it to the system in the two states under consideration and quickly realize that there is no way in hell the alternator can keep up with the current requirements of the winch.

Engine is running or not is moot.

From a real world point of view, most of the recoveries I've done have been accomplished with less than one minute of continuous winching. The alternator usually re-charges the battery within a few minutes. One of the nice thing about the FJ40 is that it has a real ammeter so you can easily tell when the alternator is working to charge the system.


BTW can I have a beer?

[e9999]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

Before asking the question a good engineer would look at the load presented by the winch, compare it to the system in the two states under consideration and quickly realize that there is no way in hell the alternator can keep up with the current requirements of the winch.

Engine is running or not is moot.

From a real world point of view, most of the recoveries I've done have been accomplished with less than one minute of continuous winching. The alternator usually re-charges the battery within a few minutes. One of the nice thing about the FJ40 is that it has a real ammeter so you can easily tell when the alternator is working to charge the system.


BTW can I have a beer?

are you saying that it does not make any difference as to how long you can winch whether the engine is running or not?

I'm not sure I'm convinced. The typical alternators we use are capable of somewhere between 100A and 200A IIRC. A typical recovery would probably not require the full 400 or 500A at the top of the load specs. I have no real numbers to base this on admittedly, but I would guess that the average winch use is not above 200 or 300A, kinda midrange. Unless you stall it of course, like in deep mud.
So, I'm guessing that the alternator could make a significant difference. (A lot would depend on the rpms, though, I would imagine. Hand throttle anybody?)
But that's a good point to consider as well.

Oh, and sure, you can have a beer anytime you'd like. Help yourself! Not before winching, preferably, though...

[jasonmt]

The Warn site is full of information, using said information and the amp-hour rating of your battery/batteries should yield a decent estimate.

[tgreening]

Originally Posted by e9999

was thinking about the issue of hydraulic vs electric.
Obviously, an argument that's used a lot in favor of the electric is that it can run with the engine stopped (as in stalled in a river, for example).

But I was wondering how long could one realistically expect to run a winch pulling a 6000 lbs truck off a tight spot with engine off? Assuming a truck size battery in good shape, say?


Yes, it surely depends on the load, but are we talking about a few seconds or a few minutes? I mean in the real world, if you did try that.

(And no, going by Ahr rating would surely be way off, I imagine)

Personally, and without debating amp/hrs, line loads, number of wraps on the drum, etc etc, I'd say it's a no brainer. Hydraulic all the way. The duty cycle is for all intents and purposes infinite, at least compared to an electric. It won't run without the engine but I feel it's advantages outweigh that one small (debatable) drawback.

If you get stuck in a river, alone, you got what's coming to you. You should always have a wheeling partner. If your engine is dead and you manage to winch out of whatever stuck you were in, well you still have a dead engine and aren't going anywhere and now you probably have a near dead battery to boot. If you have a partner and your winch is hyraulic he can yank you out of whatever stuck you are in and if need be haul you off the trail. In this kind of scenario having a battery powered winch is of no advantage IMO.

A hydraulic winch on the other hand will run all day long without taxing anything. You can get stuck every 10 feet and still haul yourself out if you had to.


I have an 8000# winch running off dual deep cycles and I can tell you it will start draining those batteries in nothing flat in a hard pull and the alternator most certainly will NOT keep up with the drain. It might extend the inevitable a bit but that's it. It comes to a point where you have to shut down and wait to recharge, if your motor is running. If it isn't you're done anyway whether electric or hydraulic.

I'd trade my electric in heartbeat for a hydraulic if I were to do it again. When I get towards the end of my rebuild I'll probably yank the electric unit for a hydraulic and use the old one on a trailer or something.

My 2 cents..

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by e9999

are you saying that it does not make any difference as to how long you can winch whether the engine is running or not?

I'm not sure I'm convinced. The typical alternators we use are capable of somewhere between 100A and 200A IIRC. A typical recovery would probably not require the full 400 or 500A at the top of the load specs. I have no real numbers to base this on admittedly, but I would guess that the average winch use is not above 200 or 300A, kinda midrange. Unless you stall it of course, like in deep mud.
So, I'm guessing that the alternator could make a significant difference. (A lot would depend on the rpms, though, I would imagine. Hand throttle anybody?)
But that's a good point to consider as well.

Oh, and sure, you can have a beer anytime you'd like. Help yourself! Not before winching, preferably, though...

The FJ40 stock alternator puts out 45 amps. I assume the 60 series is the same.

IIRC the 80 series puts out 80 amps and I believe the 100 series puts out 95 amps. I think 95 amps is more typical for larger trucks than the 100 - 200 amps you assumed. Five minutes of googling would probably yield the required data to make a generalization for vehicles other than Land Cruisers.

My warn 8274 draws 450 amps at max load, 275 amps mid range. The 8000 and 9000 series are similar. Unless you were doing a dead pull on flat ground the load isn't going to be in the 3K (275A) range. Keep in mind the trucks with the higher output alternators are also heavier so they will require more current during the pull. So it can be assumed that the alternator can only supply about 25% of the current required during winching operation. In essence the winch will rely almost entirely on the battery for current.

Alternator ratings are the MAX out put, they assume whatever RMP's will support that. Hand throttles would, IMHO, have limited utility the engine will typically adjust RPM's for the load from the alternator of AC compressor automatically. They would probably be great for hydro and PTO winches.

Rumor has it you have good beer. I never drink until the keys are out of the ignition for the day.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by tgreening

Personally, and without debating amp/hrs, line loads, number of wraps on the drum, etc etc, I'd say it's a no brainer. Hydraulic all the way. The duty cycle is for all intents and purposes infinite, at least compared to an electric. It won't run without the engine but I feel it's advantages outweigh that one small (debatable) drawback.

If you get stuck in a river, alone, you got what's coming to you. You should always have a wheeling partner. If your engine is dead and you manage to winch out of whatever stuck you were in, well you still have a dead engine and aren't going anywhere and now you probably have a near dead battery to boot. If you have a partner and your winch is hyraulic he can yank you out of whatever stuck you are in and if need be haul you off the trail. In this kind of scenario having a battery powered winch is of no advantage IMO.

A hydraulic winch on the other hand will run all day long without taxing anything. You can get stuck every 10 feet and still haul yourself out if you had to.


I have an 8000# winch running off dual deep cycles and I can tell you it will start draining those batteries in nothing flat in a hard pull and the alternator most certainly will NOT keep up with the drain. It might extend the inevitable a bit but that's it. It comes to a point where you have to shut down and wait to recharge, if your motor is running. If it isn't you're done anyway whether electric or hydraulic.

I'd trade my electric in heartbeat for a hydraulic if I were to do it again. When I get towards the end of my rebuild I'll probably yank the electric unit for a hydraulic and use the old one on a trailer or something.

My 2 cents..

Agreed you should not wheel alone, but a lot of us do from time to time.
Two quick scenarios come to mind, other than river crossings, where you would need to winch with the engine off.

If your truck is on it's side you probably don't want to run it while you winch it back up right. I can see this happening on an icy road while I'm by my self not expecting anything bad to happen.

If you are trying to winch up a ledge, ie out of a creek bed, the truck may not be able to get enough fuel to run.

In my experience you rarely get stuck every 10 feet. Even when I was driving my truck out of Rubicon in 2WD using the winch to get over tough spots there was plenty of time between winches for the battery to recover.

[orangefj45]

this post is so silly, i'm amazed it's not in chat yet.


if you want real-world "data", then you'll need to be a little more specific with your question and parameters.

what you're asking is something along the lines of "how far will my car go on a tank of gas?", without stating what kind of car, what engine and how large the fuel tank is.

sure, on a decent charge a battery should provide enough pulling power to get you out of a bind without the engine running. but it all depends on the conditions, the terrain, what's being winched, obstacles, angle of pull, size of winch drum and how many coils of wire are on it,...........

we've had to extract a few rigs that were not running. usually the batteries will for for a few minutes. to help get the max help from your winch, it's a good idea to stop from time to time to let the winch motor and battery cool off for a minute.

and fwiw, we've had one nasty recovery where we needed all the winch power possible. so we split up 2 sets of jumper cables and put them end-to-end. then attached them from the positive terminal of the vehicle doing the winching to the pos terminal of the vehicle being winched. the winch cable provided the ground connection. we were able to get the truck out but it was'nt easy.

either way, not nearly enough info so you're gonna get a bunch of vague and random replies.

[e9999]

well, I don't think that Ah or RC is a good measure for this type of use.

OTOH, CA is in a way. Definition is that it's the Amps that can be sustained for 30 secs before battery V drops down to 10V or so at 32F.

So, my deep cycle battery specs at 750 A CA.
That would mean it can do that at least for 30 secs if in good shape.
But that's more than even a max load on my M12000 which is about 500A. And I don't see much 32F.

So, we're talking at least a good 30 secs, and probably more like 2 or 3 minutes at midload and high ambient temps, as mentioned above. I would guess that 5 minutes would be unlikely for any reasonable pull.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by e9999

well, I don't think that Ah or RC is a good measure for this type of use.

OTOH, CA is in a way. Definition is that it's the Amps that can be sustained for 30 secs before battery V drops down to 10V or so at 32F.

So, my deep cycle battery specs at 750 A CA.
That would mean it can do that at least for 30 secs if in good shape.
But that's more than even a max load on my M12000 which is about 500A. And I don't see much 32F.

So, we're talking at least a good 30 secs, and probably more like 2 or 3 minutes at midload and high ambient temps, as mentioned above. I would guess that 5 minutes would be unlikely for any reasonable pull.

Deep cycle battery plates are designed to release energy slowly. Rapid discharging can damage them. You need a starting battery of one of the newer technology combination batteries to run a winch.

Think about it, a winch is much like a starter. Simple logic implies that you want to use a starting battery, designed for rapid discharge/charge cycles, rather than a battery designed for long slow discharge/charge cycles.

[jasonmt]

Originally Posted by e9999

well, I don't think that Ah or RC is a good measure for this type of use.

OTOH, CA is in a way. Definition is that it's the Amps that can be sustained for 30 secs before battery V drops down to 10V or so at 32F.

So, my deep cycle battery specs at 750 A CA.
That would mean it can do that at least for 30 secs if in good shape.
But that's more than even a max load on my M12000 which is about 500A. And I don't see much 32F.

So, we're talking at least a good 30 secs, and probably more like 2 or 3 minutes at midload and high ambient temps, as mentioned above. I would guess that 5 minutes would be unlikely for any reasonable pull.

Note I said "estimate" as Peukert's Equation is going to play havoc with any "estimates", especially once we are talking about deep cycle batteries with a high
Peukert Exponent (n in the graph below):


Some "typical" Peukert Exponent values:
Trojan T-105 = 1.25
Concorde AGM = 1.06
Optima 750S = 1.109
US Battery 2200 = 1.20
Hawker Genesis = 1.11

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by e9999

well, I don't think that Ah or RC is a good measure for this type of use.

OTOH, CA is in a way. Definition is that it's the Amps that can be sustained for 30 secs before battery V drops down to 10V or so at 32F.

So, my deep cycle battery specs at 750 A CA.
That would mean it can do that at least for 30 secs if in good shape.
But that's more than even a max load on my M12000 which is about 500A. And I don't see much 32F.

So, we're talking at least a good 30 secs, and probably more like 2 or 3 minutes at midload and high ambient temps, as mentioned above. I would guess that 5 minutes would be unlikely for any reasonable pull.

I winch all the time in the Winter and I live in CA. I have winched over 100 feet at one time in very deep snow and using every bit of rope and a 20 foot extension.

I let the winch and battery rest for 30 to 60 seconds, I run dual starting batteries in parallel and I shut off my headlights and run my engine at a reasonable high RPM.

I would prefer an electric winch.

And you'll ruin a deep cycle battery winching.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by jasonmt

Note I said "estimate" as Peukert's Equation is going to play havoc with any "estimates", especially once we are talking about deep cycle batteries with a high
Peukert Exponent (n in the graph below):


Some "typical" Peukert Exponent values:
Trojan T-105 = 1.25
Concorde AGM = 1.06
Optima 750S = 1.109
US Battery 2200 = 1.20
Hawker Genesis = 1.11

ah, some real Engineering . Thanks Jason. Interesting curves. Gotta read more on this.

That confirms what I thought intuitively, though, that the capacity in Ah or RC is really more relevant to long drawn use like lights and not to winching or starting. But the CA, there we're talking big A numbers.

Owner, Seems to me that a dual purpose Starting / Deep Cycle battery should do fine for winching, no?


Anyway, is it not a consensus then that one could reasonably expect to be able to get out of at least one moderate predicament on battery alone. If so, that's pretty good to know.

[jasonmt]

I don't know if I would go as far as calling it "engineering" but if you punch in the numbers to one of the online calculators for a Optima D34-750S it looks like in theory that you would get ~9 minutes of winching time from a fully charged battery dropping to 10.5V.

Given the Warn numbers posted for a 8274-50 using a snatch block for a 8k load would have no appreciable loss of speed at the snatch block but drop the amperage requirements to 275A which would net you ~16 minutes under the same conditions.

[raevenzero]

Seems to me like you could use an electric and run a 24v setup just for your winch. It wouldn't take anything to set it up and would theoretically quadruple the length of time you can winch. If you get the batteries low and still need to crank the motor, you can reverse your cables and have 12v with 2x of the amps you have left to crank the motor.

I have a mini truck and have flooded it out in water before (with no winch) and have been pulled out. I cranked the motor and it started after sitting for a little while and me doing a bit of cleaning. I was able to drive it home to make more repairs. If I was alone with and had a winch, I would have needed an electric winch to get me out AND enough left over to get me start.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by jasonmt

I don't know if I would go as far as calling it "engineering" but if you punch in the numbers to one of the online calculators for a Optima D34-750S it looks like in theory that you would get ~9 minutes of winching time from a fully charged battery dropping to 10.5V.

Given the Warn numbers posted for a 8274-50 using a snatch block for a 8k load would have no appreciable loss of speed at the snatch block but drop the amperage requirements to 275A which would net you ~16 minutes under the same conditions.

wow. 16 mins off one battery sounds like a lot for 275A.