[e9999]

well, I read on the occasional comments about using an 8000 lbs winch for the 80.

One or 2 folks (Alvaro IIRC?) were saying that it (Warn 8K which may be better than most) worked out well for them. Others (more?) seem to think that it's not nearly enough for an armored rig.

The difference in cost is substantial between an 8K and a 12K. ($500 vs $1000) for something that I'll likely never use...

Then again, obviously, more winch is better and double cabling is not always easy.

Yea, yea, when you need it you need it, why skimp etc etc, but having the 8K is better than not having a stronger 12K...




For mostly dry stuckages (sand, dirt, rocks) very little if any mud, waddaya think? Practical experience to rely on?

[Hayes]

How 'bout splitting the difference and going for a 9000 pounder?

[zidaro]

well, I'll chime in for ya since no one else has. My opinion is get a bigger winch than 8k. Minimum 1.5X the # of you rig for dry pulls. Most importantly, your talking a few buck xtra for a 9500#/10k winch and you'll be kicking yourself silly when that small winch wont tug you out and your in the middle of nowhere paying huge $$$$$ and time for a real winch to come get you. Only downside to a moderately larger winch is a little dough. Weight and size is negligible with payoffs galore.

[Hayes]

In my fantasy world where $$ is no concern, I'd have the 12000 pounder. Although I haven't actually winched myself with my 9000XD yet (winched a couple other small trucks), I've read plenty of opinions in the 80 forum that say a 12000 pounder is best, but a 9000 pounder is perfectly adequate.

I don't know the weights of either winch, but how much heavier is the M12000? This could be a factor to consider.

There are also less expensive brands. I can't speak to quality or reliability, but it seems like they should be part of the consideration.

Warn 12k # $1000
Warn 9k # $750
Mile Marker 12k # $600
Warn 8k # $500

[stevezero]

Costco has a MileMarker 8000 on their website for $349.00. I know its not a 12k, but for most people that should be sufficient. Obviously, the more vertical or deeper the muck, the more lbs of pull youre going to need.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by stevezero

Costco has a MileMarker 8000 on their website for $349.00. I know its not a 12k, but for most people that should be sufficient. Obviously, the more vertical or deeper the muck, the more lbs of pull youre going to need.

even $329 plus shipping now, but that's the permanent magnet one. Don't think I would go that route. I doubt that one pulls 8K for long... If 8K is marginal, I'd probably want a good one.

[e9999]

anybody used an 8K one on reasonable dry land and it wasn't strong enough?

[7P's]

For what it’s worth, I’ve used an 8K warn (M8274) for more years than I care to count mounted on a 1975 F250. I have a 10K Warn currently on my “built” Tundra, as it was cheaper than an 8K Warn at the time. The 8274 has pulled me out of some awful spots including a time when I had right at a cord of Maple in the bed (4.5K or so) and sunk up to my axles in soft earth. I tripled the line on that occasion and inched out. My experiences over the past 30 years with front mounted winches has been that I have seldom needed to double my line, as I needed just a “little” help getting off being high centered, pulled off a clay/mud patch or add a little more traction to the front tires. When I’ve been “really” stuck or needed to be pulled up a ledge and had a fairly close usable anchor point, I’ve never been disappointed by doubling the line with either the 8K or 10K Warn. I’ve seen several 9K Warns stall and on a couple occasions my 10K Warn stalled out on single line pulls in difficult situations and IMHO a 12K would have done the same. I have a 12K Warn on my “built” ’95 Cruiser because it was already there when I purchased it – I’ve used the winch 4/5 times this year and I know that on each occasion a 6K winch would have done the job just as well – I know there will be a time or two in the future that a 12K will come in handy but I sure wouldn’t hesitate to run an 8K pound winch on a Cruiser – just make sure you have the necessary rigging, including a heavy-duty snatch block and a D-shackle or two handy.

[Cruiserdrew]

Some things to consider....

In the West, there isn't much mud and so the need for overkill is low.

I saw a study once where they looked at the average pulling force during various recoveries and the average for Jeeps was about 3000 pounds. I don't know how to translate for Land Cruisers, but they weigh more.

An 8274 is a different beast from an M8000. I think an 8274 would be adequate, but it weighs and costs as much as an M12000. I've recovered an 80 twice with my 8274.

An M8000 can be made really light, with synthetic rope, and a plastic fairlead. Check out First toy's winch at S n T.


I have also seen a 9500 fail to pull a loaded Rover up a steep pitch in Death Valley last year. It was an extremely dangerous spot with a 3000 foot roll potential in South Park Canyon. It should be on Snook's video to be shown at Surf and Turf.

An M12000 comes with a 3/8 wire rope, not 5/16. I think 5/16 is close to the breaking limit on a 9500. Here is a place where overkill is highly desirable.

An M12000 has 125 feet of rope, not 80 or 100 like the M8000.

Double lining is a PIA, and almost everyone tries to single line first.

The more people you go with, the smaller your winch can be. If it's just you, get a bigger winch. If you go with 20 club members, an 8000 will likely do it.

THe M8000 does not fit well in the 80 series bumper. You have to space it out, and rotote the clutch mechanism. THe M12000 fits perfectly.


If you get into a spot where you really, really need the winch, that $500 won't seem like much. This happened to me only once-I had all 125 feet of wire rope out, a 30 foot chain, and a 30 foot tow strap, all end to end to recover an 80 burried to the frame rails in snow. He was so far away that a double line was not possible, and another truck had tried to get closer and also had to be recovered. I was glad to have the M12000 that day.

Just remember that you will rarely need a winch. Santa Barbara isn't the jungle. When you do need it though, you will really need it, so plan accordingly.

[7P's]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

If you get into a spot where you really, really need the winch, that $500 won't seem like much. This happened to me only once-I had all 125 feet of wire rope out, a 30 foot chain, and a 30 foot tow strap, all end to end to recover an 80 burried to the frame rails in snow. He was so far away that a double line was not possible, and another truck had tried to get closer and also had to be recovered. I was glad to have the M12000 that day.

Just remember that you will rarely need a winch. Santa Barbara isn't the jungle. When you do need it though, you will really need it, so plan accordingly.

Well put; normally what you have just described is the reason why some people decide to get the winch in the first place, that is, working your arse off for several hours with hi-lift, timbers and shovel and swearing to purchase that winch as soon as you get back to civilization.

Ole Murphy has a funny sense of humor, as when you really really get stuck there never seems to be an anchor point within 200 feet and using a portable anchor is out of the question - then one still needs the shovel, hi-lift, plenty of boards and blocks along with good ole Armstrong to get out and if you're in the north country don't forget to bring a gallon of mosquito dope in the summer because you'll be there awhile and a chain saw will help make the job a lot easier and faster.

[Entaran]

Two words: Snatch block.

An 8000 pound winch will be more than sufficient utilising the above piece of tool to pull yourself out of the mentioned situations. The only issue you MAY have is if you're trying to pull yourself up a near vertical face like a rockcrawler!

btw. Winches are not for pulling OTHER bogged vehicles out. That's what Snatch straps are for.

[Brentbba]

Nice summarization Andrew!

[siglo]

Originally Posted by Entaran

btw. Winches are not for pulling OTHER bogged vehicles out. That's what Snatch straps are for.

could you elaborate more on that statement?

Assuming the winch cable does not break, the pulling vehicle transmission and diffs are on neutral, wheels are properly blocked, and facing the bogged 4x4 dead on, what kind of damage could occur to the vehicle pulling the bogged 4x4?

[NorCalDoug]

just get the 12k and be done with it.

[RHINO]

it seems simple to me, but maybe thats the problem. if your budget is for 8k get an 8k and be prepared to double up sometimes.

[NorCalDoug]

Originally Posted by RHINO

it seems simple to me, but maybe thats the problem. if your budget is for 8k get an 8k and be prepared to double up sometimes.

but if he simply did that, we couldn't sit around and do this :shotts:

[Brentbba]

This is Eric over analyzing, not to say that mosts of us haven't been guilty of that from time to time. Someone in FirstToy's thread on his Warn 8K said Eric would and this is the thread.

Eric - you know you want the M12000 - just do it.

[rgsiii]

Last year, my '94 weighed in at 6,250 pounds loaded on the way back from Colorado with my 160 lb son in it. You may want to weigh yours for grins loaded with everything you will have on the trip.

I want a bit more pull than a 8,000 lb winch.

[sleeoffroad]

I have a M8000 on the ShortBus (weight about 5400lbs) and have dragged it out of insane places with an without broken parts. Have never stalled it out. Have used double line pull sometimes, but never had it stall. None of this was mud or snow, just rocks.

Places like this.

[e9999]

well, I'm not reading a lot of stories about how the M8 couldn't do the job with an 80... wonder if that thing benefitted from the ole "overdesign" and "underspec" approach...? Or the need for a 12K is another example of the well-known Mudder's "I need to get a bigger one than you" real-life be damned...?

I may just give it a try and save the $500 (or more. Used winch anyone?) ... Especially since I'll never get stuck, anyway, right? Riiiiight???

[Tools R Us]

Originally Posted by e9999

... Especially since I'll never get stuck, anyway, right? Riiiiight???

I am thinking you should go for a 15,000lb, there is some nasty mud in your wheeling area!

http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/24508-stuck-my-yard.html

[Brentbba]

Based on that thread - Eric's been researching winches for at least TWO years now.

Originally Posted by Tools R Us

I am thinking you should go for a 15,000lb, there is some nasty mud in your wheeling area!

http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=24508

[e9999]

aaah, these were the good ole days...


strangely, though, since I got the MT/Rs it doesn't get muddy any more, what's with that...?

[cruiser88]

not for me ive burned up 12 k in red clay sad day.anyway i even was very carefull 30 sec. on 30 sec. off.still messed it up.if you live in a no mud area hell go for it

[Cruiserdrew]

This discussion was more fun when e9999 was trying to buy some cobbed together winch made from a WWII airplane starter motor. Just buy any winch that fits, and be happy. If you stray from the M8000(fits with minor mods), M10000(fits for sure), M12000(also fits for sure) you may have fitment issues so check carefully before buying.

[pismojim]

You should look at the amps required at different loads for these winches. The winches have the same motor. The difference is the gear ratios, doubling the line is the same as lower gears - except it has the benefit of pulling off more line so you have less wraps. That gives additonal advantage to the winch and lower amps. Easier on battery and charging system.

I've got a 9.5XP on by FJ60 and plan a 12K for the 80 Series. I've got a 100ft 3/8 synthetic extension to share between them.

[Entaran]

Originally Posted by siglo

could you elaborate more on that statement?

Assuming the winch cable does not break, the pulling vehicle transmission and diffs are on neutral, wheels are properly blocked, and facing the bogged 4x4 dead on, what kind of damage could occur to the vehicle pulling the bogged 4x4?

Winches are SOLELY for -SELF- recovery. Using a winch to pull a bogged vehicle when yours is not bogged is a REALLY easy way to drag yourself forward and put MASSIVE strain on your brakes and tyres (being dragged forward). The winch itself is designed to recover YOUR vehicle (ie: that's why it's mounted to your car so heavily). If the other car in yoru convoy is bogged and you are not, you use a snatch strap and correct recovery technique. You do not under any circumstances use a winch to pull a vehicle that is bogged out if that vehicle is not your own and you yourself are not bogged.

Last resort maybe.

[siglo]

Originally Posted by Entaran

Winches are SOLELY for -SELF- recovery. Using a winch to pull a bogged vehicle when yours is not bogged is a REALLY easy way to drag yourself forward and put MASSIVE strain on your brakes and tyres (being dragged forward). The winch itself is designed to recover YOUR vehicle (ie: that's why it's mounted to your car so heavily). If the other car in yoru convoy is bogged and you are not, you use a snatch strap and correct recovery technique. You do not under any circumstances use a winch to pull a vehicle that is bogged out if that vehicle is not your own and you yourself are not bogged.

Last resort maybe.

Thanks for clarifying. It does make sense in a way

I asked because I remember seeing in some of warn's manuals a 4x4 pulling another. They mentioned in the document below how to change the pulling direction "from the winch to the object being pulled" in page 17 and added a drawing of a vehicle equipped with a winch pulling another one.

http://www.warn.com/corporate/images...US.readers.pdf

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by Entaran

Winches are SOLELY for -SELF- recovery. etc .

No. Winches are for recovering whatever needs to be recovered. There are numerous occasions where a snatch strap is useless-ie too far, wrong angle, chopped terrain. In those situations a strap will not do the trick.

As to the loads on the brakes and tires when winching-they are built for that. Think about a 7000 pound truck towing a trailer and slamming on the brakes at speed.

How about the extreme forces generated when snatching a stuck vehicle? Your truck is not built for that. Additionally, the loads generated by winching are controlable as opposed to snatching which is an uncontrolled wild ride. If the winch pull is so hard that you are going to pull yourself forward, most of us use a strap to anchor the winching vehicle to a tree or another truck.

Maybe you guys do things differently down there, but your insistance on this point is not backed up by real world experience.

Now back to the usual entertainment of e9999's quest to buy a winch he will never use....

[Brentbba]

Andy - you are toooooo funny. hehehe