Tube bender proposal for club

[H2o]

Here is the proposal for the tube bender:


ProTools Brute Pro4 Tube bender:
The Complete Pro4 Package Includes : “The Brute” Pro4, 5/8" Plate Steel Construction, 17"/ 8 TON, Air/Hydraulic Ram, Self Retracting Arms, Bender Base, Digital Angle Finder, Ball Valve Mount, Die Hitch Pins. Bends 180 Deg., 2"-7"CLR, 1/2"-2" OD Dies, Accepts PRO Tool Model 105 & ProBender Bending Dies
Price: $1,046

1 Die Set Price: $340

Castor base Price: $70

Shipping Price: $TBD

Bendtech Software (assuming a member donates a free laptop to the club) Price: $285

Total Price: $1741

Total Price without Software: $1456

(Prices do not include shipping on bender.)

[H2o]

This bender can be used with an air compressor to make life easier, or manually, without air. The idea would be that members could borrow it to do their own projects once they had completed a basic bending tech day (to make sure they know how to use the equipment and don't hurt themselves or damage it).

Even if you do not own a welder, you can do all your bending and prep work, then have a friend or professional welder finish the job. Most of the cost to making a cage, bumper, sliders, etc.. is in the prep work, prior to welding.

The software would allow us to print out templates to help in making connections on the cage and save time and material (steel) when bending by avoiding mistakes. We would need a laptop to run the software. This laptop would be dedicated to the software.

Please give us your thoughts.

[Felix]

Me likes.

[emorth]

Me likes, too.

[StaleAle]

Not inexpensive, perhaps we will need a fundraiser so we don't drain the club coffers too low...Aw what the heck, it's only money!

[Devilmans Hand]

cool tool. Gives me an excuse to build a real cage.

[H2o]

I think we need to ask ourselves what the money is for? It has been sitting in the bank idle for the past 4 or 5 years. The only thing we have been spending it on is tools for the club. I will get Mr. Smith to put together a list of what we currently own. BTW, there are alot of other clubs that own tube benders and it seems to be working well.

If we decide to go ahead with this, we will need to put together some rules and stick by them. John, do you know what rules other clubs have?

Please keep in mind that dies are EXPENSIVE and you need a different one for each size tube you decide to bend. We would try to select a good standard size for the types of projects we do. According to Extreme 4x4, 1 5/8" (1.625") .120 wall- nhr drag raceing standard is a good in between size for our trucks. 1 3/4 is used alot too, but is bigger and heavier of course.

We need to explore the cost of steel and availability of each size, and talk to a few people.

[Jakes40]

my vote is yes.

I need to extend my cage to a full cage and make a front bib guard and stinger. looks like this will have a lot of use.

I may have an old dell laptop to donate to the club. it is an old one (windows 98 era). if it gets dropped o well. I'll check and see. I'll have to reload all the software. not to sound cheap but can't we make a base. I've got some steel if someone can get some casters. saves $70.00 and maybe some on shipping.

Chris

[76FJ40]

Burl,

Doesn't Rubbermaid have some casters?

[colangut]

Mo Bettah:

Tube and Pipe Benders

Cheaper

Simpler

and all that you need...

Get the 1.5 square die to make sliders...

my .02c

-Stumbaugh

[H2o]

Have you used this bender before?

Originally Posted by colangut

Mo Bettah:

Tube and Pipe Benders

Cheaper

Simpler

and all that you need...

Get the 1.5 square die to make sliders...

my .02c

-Stumbaugh

[colangut]

A friend of mine has one.

It's more work to pump the jack by hand but it's also easier to not over bend.

When you bend tube, you have to deal with springback. In other words, you have to bend the tube a few degrees more than you need because it tends to spring back a bit. Easy to bend it a little more but not possible to bend it less.

I also like the way it sits on the floor and you can use an angle gauge to see how far you've bent it.

Personal preference, but I think a simple bender is more ideal for what the club would need. The bender you picked is great but more complex, more parts to loose and more ideally suited for a production environment where your making a lot stuff, you are familiar with what you want to do and you need to do it quickly.

check out the tube bender at blindchickenracing.com you can actually build one of these.

Again, this is just my opinion. If it were my $$$ I'd rather have a cheaper bender and a notcher and maybe a few other dies like 1.0 round, 1.0 square and 1.5 square. With those dies, you can even make the rear part of the body tub, oem soft top bows, etc.

Sounds like another good reason to have a welding tech again again. Maybe "how not have booger welds on your roll cage" would be a good one.

[colangut]

I'd like to add that I'm impressed to see you guys get motivated to do something like this. Respect.

One more thing, anything less than 2'' inch tube for a Land Cruiser is no bueno. IIRC the off road racing sanctioning bodies call for 2.0 tube for any truck with a removable top. Buggies and cars can use the smallest size. However, last I heard even Nascar was requiring a 2.0 halo in their cages with smaller sized stringers. However, I am no expert. Metal Tech is using 2.0...

Ideally, I'd say that 2.0 round for cages, 1.0 round for OEM soft top bows, 1.5 square for rear body tub repairs and rock sliders and then maybe 1.0 square for swing out can and cooler holders, etc.

I really don't think that you need to software if you can measure but it might be good for a halo style cage if you could figure out a way to put on in a FJ40.

I suspect that it would be something for members to play with though.

[H2o]

Thanks for the input. The smaller bender would be easier to move around for sure and getting more dies would be great. I will review with John and we will try to talk to some others as well with bending experience to get their feedback.

John mentioned that he did not think the software was necessary. I thought it would be a good tool since it provides templates that you can print out and use to cut out tubing. also prevents wasting steel. the big downside is if it is not user friendly... members will take a lot of time to get used to using it.

As for your welding tech day, sure. Let me know when and we will schedule it. However, I would like to either do this in the spring/summer or if we can find and indoor location. It was too cold last time

[John Smith]

Originally Posted by colangut

A friend of mine has one.

It's more work to pump the jack by hand but it's also easier to not over bend.

When you bend tube, you have to deal with springback. In other words, you have to bend the tube a few degrees more than you need because it tends to spring back a bit. Easy to bend it a little more but not possible to bend it less.

I also like the way it sits on the floor and you can use an angle gauge to see how far you've bent it.

Personal preference, but I think a simple bender is more ideal for what the club would need. The bender you picked is great but more complex, more parts to loose and more ideally suited for a production environment where your making a lot stuff, you are familiar with what you want to do and you need to do it quickly.

check out the tube bender at blindchickenracing.com you can actually build one of these.

Again, this is just my opinion. If it were my $$$ I'd rather have a cheaper bender and a notcher and maybe a few other dies like 1.0 round, 1.0 square and 1.5 square. With those dies, you can even make the rear part of the body tub, oem soft top bows, etc.

Sounds like another good reason to have a welding tech again again. Maybe "how not have booger welds on your roll cage" would be a good one.

John, Has your friend ever bent 2" .120 DOM tube with that bender? The plate thickness in the picture makes me suspect. The ProBender model above is built with with 5/8" plate specifically to use a 2" die. They don't recommend using the 2" die in the 1/2" plate model. I totally agree with you on 2" for roll cages. Besides the strength factor the tube size just looks right to me on a 40.

[colangut]

Originally Posted by John Smith

John, Has your friend ever bent 2" .120 DOM tube with that bender? The plate thickness in the picture makes me suspect. The ProBender model above is built with with 5/8" plate specifically to use a 2" die. They don't recommend using the 2" die in the 1/2" plate model. I totally agree with you on 2" for roll cages. Besides the strength factor the tube size just looks right to me on a 40.

I'll ask him. He's a race car guy so I doubt it.

If they recommend the larger model for 2" tube, then it's no-brainer to get the larger one because it will likely bend a lot of two inch tube.

Years ago I had the hand powered JD bender that is similar to what Pro-Tools offers. I used it to build a few cages and then sold it to Ryan Bascome. If I bought another one, I'd buy one with a hand jack. Might take longer but it would be more precise than the long lever and the slack in the mechanism.

[StaleAle]

Originally Posted by colangut

sounds like another good reason to have a welding tech again again. Maybe "how not have booger welds on your roll cage" would be a good one.

tech-day....tech-day....tech-day......!

[StaleAle]

Originally Posted by H2o

As for your welding tech day, sure. Let me know when and we will schedule it. However, I would like to either do this in the spring/summer or if we can find and indoor location. It was too cold last time

You mean finally finishing your headlight relay project after what...a year, didn't give you enough of a warm feeling?!

If the weather is too cold for you, you can stay in and sit by the fire in your cardigan. I volunteer to keep the battery charged in your 40.

[dmttow]

I purchased a tube bender about two months ago and went with Baileigh RMD050 Rotary Draw Bender RDB-050 Video
Sadly I have not made anything yet, only done some practice bends. If anybody needs to make something your welcome to come by and use it. I only have one die thats 1 5/8. I have two hundred feet of DOM waiting to make something. This is not a portable bender like protools. Its very heavy and must be anchored securely.

[colangut]

That bender is cool...

[colangut]

Originally Posted by John Smith

John, Has your friend ever bent 2" .120 DOM tube with that bender? The plate thickness in the picture makes me suspect. The ProBender model above is built with with 5/8" plate specifically to use a 2" die. They don't recommend using the 2" die in the 1/2" plate model. I totally agree with you on 2" for roll cages. Besides the strength factor the tube size just looks right to me on a 40.

John,

I talked to both my friend and the folks at Pro-Tools. Both said 2.0 no problem.

The HMP200 is made of thinner metal but if you consider how short the lengths of metal are there is no lack of strength given that there is less leverage on a shorter span a longer span would need to be thicker.

[Luthier]

Originally Posted by H2o

This bender can be used with an air compressor to make life easier, or manually, without air. The idea would be that members could borrow it to do their own projects once they had completed a basic bending tech day (to make sure they know how to use the equipment and don't hurt themselves or damage it).

Even if you do not own a welder, you can do all your bending and prep work, then have a friend or professional welder finish the job. Most of the cost to making a cage, bumper, sliders, etc.. is in the prep work, prior to welding.

Please give us your thoughts.

Spending this much Club money on a tool which will be benificial to a small minority of CLCC members seems foolhardy to me.

I am not entirely adverse to CLCC owning such a tool. I am opposed to the increased liability which the Club assumes by owning and granting access to such a tool. I am very much opposed to its purchase coming out of genral funds. I suggest that we instead do some fund-raisers and see if they will raise the money needed to purchase the tool. If the moneys are raised through this mechanism then it will be self-evident that enough members wanted it it enough to make it happen.

The requirement that a member be required to have "completed a basic bending tech day" sounds good in theory. But we hardly organize any tech days as it is and requring members to attend a tech day specific to the use of this tool will require the following things:
* a documented lesson plan
* using materials/stock to demonstrate the tool
* having people willing to demonstrate and lead the tech day
* availability of the authorized instructors prior to making the tool available to a member
* criterion for determining who is or is not authorized to use the tool
* a place to store and maintain the tools which is accessable to all members

The CLCC will assume additional liability by owning this tool.

CLCC is not a legal entity which means that the liability probably falls by default on to the clubs officers.

I could say more but this seems like more than enough argument to quash the idea.

-- Eugene

[colangut]

Originally Posted by Luthier

Spending this much Club money on a tool which will be benificial to a small minority of CLCC members seems foolhardy to me.

I am not entirely adverse to CLCC owning such a tool. I am opposed to the increased liability which the Club assumes by owning and granting access to such a tool. I am very much opposed to its purchase coming out of genral funds. I suggest that we instead do some fund-raisers and see if they will raise the money needed to purchase the tool. If the moneys are raised through this mechanism then it will be self-evident that enough members wanted it it enough to make it happen.

The requirement that a member be required to have "completed a basic bending tech day" sounds good in theory. But we hardly organize any tech days as it is and requring members to attend a tech day specific to the use of this tool will require the following things:
* a documented lesson plan
* using materials/stock to demonstrate the tool
* having people willing to demonstrate and lead the tech day
* availability of the authorized instructors prior to making the tool available to a member
* criterion for determining who is or is not authorized to use the tool
* a place to store and maintain the tools which is accessable to all members

The CLCC will assume additional liability by owning this tool.

CLCC is not a legal entity which means that the liability probably falls by default on to the clubs officers.

I could say more but this seems like more than enough argument to quash the idea.

-- Eugene

Wise Words Eugene.

I am a not a lawyer, and I don't know how the club would be liable for having a tube bender. I guess someone could die or get hurt in a wreck where they used the bender to build a cage. Any conversation regarding this by anyone who is not a lawyer and who does not have specific legal expertise in what ever area of law that concerns this, is nothing but pure conjecture. I am not saying that this should not be discussed, but what you think makes sense, or what seems logical is irrelevant. It's what a judge decides and what a jury decides - not what we all think.

However, I think it is very wise that you brought this up Eugene - because of the whole legal debacle that the RTI ramp created for the club in 1999 (involving yours truly). None of which was foreseen by anyone and the bad blood created by the RTI was not worth having it in my opinion. I wish I'd never gotten involved in it when the person who initiated the idea did not get it done before our swap meet as he promised. I stepped it and got it done and the rest of it is best described as "no good deed goes unpunished".

Regarding liability, when I consulted an attorney about the RTI ramp, he said that every member of the club was liable and the builder/engineer/welder of the ramp was most liable - all of that me, me, me and it was also built at my house and therefore under my legal personal umbrella. This sort of liability is one of the reasons (aside from the RTI ramp debacle) that I am no longer an active member of the club. If someone gets hurt on an un insured trail ride, the rest of you can held legally responsible. This is something that comes up again and again in the motor cycle world.

I say you guys get the bender but maybe talk to a lawyer first.

-Stumbaugh

[John Smith]

Originally Posted by Luthier

Spending this much Club money on a tool which will be benificial to a small minority of CLCC members seems foolhardy to me.

I am not entirely adverse to CLCC owning such a tool. I am opposed to the increased liability which the Club assumes by owning and granting access to such a tool. I am very much opposed to its purchase coming out of genral funds. I suggest that we instead do some fund-raisers and see if they will raise the money needed to purchase the tool. If the moneys are raised through this mechanism then it will be self-evident that enough members wanted it it enough to make it happen.

The requirement that a member be required to have "completed a basic bending tech day" sounds good in theory. But we hardly organize any tech days as it is and requring members to attend a tech day specific to the use of this tool will require the following things:
* a documented lesson plan
* using materials/stock to demonstrate the tool
* having people willing to demonstrate and lead the tech day
* availability of the authorized instructors prior to making the tool available to a member
* criterion for determining who is or is not authorized to use the tool
* a place to store and maintain the tools which is accessable to all members

The CLCC will assume additional liability by owning this tool.

CLCC is not a legal entity which means that the liability probably falls by default on to the clubs officers.

I could say more but this seems like more than enough argument to quash the idea.

-- Eugene

Eugene, Thanks for letting us know your feelings on the tube bender idea. Unfortunately since you are not a paid member in good standing of the CLCC you don't get an official vote in the matter.

[John Smith]

Originally Posted by colangut

Wise Words Eugene.

I am a not a lawyer, and I don't know how the club would be liable for having a tube bender. I guess someone could die or get hurt in a wreck where they used the bender to build a cage. Any conversation about it by anyone who does not have legal expertise in what ever legal area concerning this noting but pure conjecture.

However, I think it is very wise that you brought this up Eugene - because of the whole legal debacle that the RTI ramp created for the club in 1999 (involving yours truly). None of which was foreseen by anyone and the bad blood created by the RTI was not worth having it in my opinion. I wish I'd never gotten involved in it when the person who initiated the idea did not get it done before our swap meet as he promised. I stepped it and got it done and the rest of it is best described as "no good deed goes unpunished".

Regarding liability, when I consulted an attorney about the RTI ramp, he said that every member of the club was liable and the builder/engineer/welder of the ramp was most liable - all of that me, me, me and it was also built at my house and therefore under my legal personal umbrella. This sort of liability is one of the reasons (aside from the RTI ramp debacle) that I am no longer an active member of the club. If someone gets hurt on an un insured trail ride, the rest of you can held legally responsible. This is something that comes up again and again in the motor cycle world.

I say you guys get the bender but maybe talk to a lawyer first.

-Stumbaugh

I have a few friends who practice law and will check with them about liability. The RTI debacle is water under that proverbial bridge. Thanks for following up about that bender. I think we should consider that bender and multiple dies if we go forward with this.

[H2o]

I am always amazed at how ambulance chaser's control every aspect of our lives. That being said, these are good points Eugene brings up. We should discuss and look into them.

But don't we come across the same liability issues when we had our swap meets and we played around with the ramps to test our trucks' suspension flex? Or when we go wheeling?

[colangut]

Agree, water under bridge.

To clarify, I still think this is the coolest thing that I've seen you guys do. Very cool idea.

To match it, I'll host a tube fab weld day and talk about the type of welding related to welding around circle. Heat control, etc.

[colangut]

Originally Posted by H2o

I am always amazed at how ambulance chaser's control every aspect of our lives. That being said, these are good points Eugene brings up. We should discuss and look into them.

But don't we come across the same liability issues when we had our swap meets and we played around with the ramps to test our trucks' suspension flex? Or when we go wheeling?

We did have the same issues with the RTI ramp - this is not longer exists.

And you do when you go wheeling. Who ever organizes a trip can be held liable. This even applies to people organizing street motorcycles rides. Someone dies and or gets hurt and the ambulance chasers go after the organizers and try to pin liability on them.

It could be an insurance company trying to get out of making a claim on someone's new FJ cruiser.

Can of worms...

I'll bow out of this ,I too am no longer a member. You guys can sort this out.

[John Smith]

Originally Posted by colangut

Agree, water under bridge.

To clarify, I still think this is the coolest thing that I've seen you guys do. Very cool idea.

To match it, I'll host a tube fab weld day and talk about the type of welding related to welding around circle. Heat control, etc.

If this happens, that would be a most excellent idea for a tech day!

And if it doesn't happen... I have a feeling Dan is going to have a lot of new friends who want to come and check out his bender.

[Felix]

Originally Posted by H2o

We have had RTI ramps at 2 or 3 of the last swap meets... It was not the clubs however. They were being used actively.

At the swap meet at GMU, we made people sign a release form before using the ramp. I'm sure that wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference in court, but it was something.