Treehugger propaganda

[hammerhead]

This'll piss you off...

http://www.redrockheritage.org/index.html

[haystax]

I like the part about "closed until signed open" great way to look at a common public resource.

[desertdude]

While I dislike the fact that the report lumped off-road and oil exploration into the same story. It is a shame when you are hiking on a trail or off-roading ( on the proper designated roads) and you see a motorcycle tire track heading off somewhere or making loops through the crypto-biotic soil.

Education is the answer, and separating the real issues on a case by case system.

Utah has some of the most stunning geoligical beauty in this nation. It is a shame what is taking place ( graffiti on ruins, dirt road paving, mining)

[fsusteve]

Ok, I've never been to Utah, but this article sounds like an attempt to appease everyone. I'm not in total disagreement with this plan as presented, only because in all honesty a lot of bad apples are destroying public lands thru littering and not staying on established trails. I've seen alot of the trails I use closed recently because some yahoos are absolutley destroying the enviornment at will. I'd rather have the trails closed then allow further destruction to continue. I agree with desertdude, education is invaluble and unfortunatley some regulation/enforcement is necessary because of the morons out there.

[hammerhead]

I DO live in Utah and this is one of the biggest misrepresentations I have ever seen. They compare a pristeen canyon to an established trail and cry "look what they've done". They claim that one of those established trails goes through a "wildernes study area". The trail was there first and the whole reason they made it a "wilderness study area" was to cause problems for the trail. A blatant assault. They don't care about the actual wilderness or they would be trying to preserve the actual wilderness. Instead, they attack any and all people or groups of people who are using the land. There are countless tracts of land here in Utah that are not being used and could be called wilderness. Wilderness by definition is supposed to be an area of uncultivated, unsettled, wild land, left to grow wild. If that is what they wanted to protect they shouldn't be going after trafficed areas such as the trails of Moab.

The exact same thing happened here in Washigton county about ten years ago. There was a very popular riding, wheeling, ATVing, etc, area right above town. It is covered with trails and according to my grandfather and father has always been devoid of wildlife. There is no water, just rocks and sand. These pseudo enviro activists falsified info and played the propaganda game and succeeded at getting it declared a refuge.

Don't fall for the bleeding heart liberal lies. They even get the bicyclers revved up against the motorized vehicles to help in their efforts. Then as soon as the land is closed to OHVs they alter their attack to eliminate the bicyclers too. Right now they are trying to eliminate horses because they aren't indigenous to the area. Neither are the wildlife the refuge was set up to "protect". They have to ship them in every year because the climate here is inhospitable and the darn things keep dying!

[fsusteve]

Just making an observation as it relates to where I live. Here there would be no designated areas of compromise, just complete shut down. It's occuring here because of two reasons:
1. Land has become increasingly valuble and demand is high.
2. Retards are showing absolute determination to destroy the few trails left here.

I have read that the folks that live around Moab and Rubicon are getting somewhat peeved with the trash and drunkeness occuring on the trails now. We are and continue to be our own worst enemies and the greenies need very little ammo to further their causes. I wasn't trying to argue with you, I actually agree with you 100% and as I said I don't live there and I don't know all the nuances of the area, but I do understand why these things are happening. Not everybody is as aware of their actions out on the trail as you and I.

[78 One owner]

I just barely got around to checking out the link hammerhead posted. The plan they wish to impose on us is one of my pet peeves. I just finished sending them the following message on their comments section:

Your plan for closed unless marked open is wrong. Sensitive areas need to be closed, I agree. And, those closures need to be enforced vigorously.
One reason that a blanket closure is wrong is that the various Gov. agencies responsible for marking the trails will not spend the time and money to mark open trails.
Our public lands should not be protected from use. They need to be protected for future use. The key to that is in Education, not closures. The public needs to be educated to understand that it is not only illegal to stray off of established roads, trails, and washes. It is immoral. There are too many ignorant people out there who feel like: "what's the harm, it's just me blazing a new trail". In reality and unrealized by them, there are hundreds of thousands of people with that "it's just me" attitude doing immeasurable damage to our public lands.
Closing sensitive areas, educating the public why it is closed, and enforcing those closures is a more effective way of protecting our children's heritage.

Anyone who doesn't believe that BIG BROTHER, or the Liberals (who know so much more than us unenlightened souls) should be in charge of our future should send them a comment.

[swank60]

So if education is the answer, where does the money come from to do it? Where do you start? Do you require a class before you're allowed on public lands? An idiot who can't stay on trail probably doesn't have the sense that God gave a sack of bricks, and I might ad, reads little more than a few captions under the girly photos in the July issue of Maxim while on the toilet.

And let's not forget that "the Liberals" aren't in charge these days, last time I checked. Especailly not in Utah - unless Utah is the new hotbed of liberal activity, surpassing New York and California...but at first glance, the top of the page says: "The majority of southeast Utah's world-famous public lands are managed by the Bureau of Land Management..." I think that the BLM is Federal...let me check...yeah, here we go "The U.S. Senate confirmed today Kathleen Clarke, former director of Utah's Department of Natural Resources, as the new director for the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), an agency in the Department of the Interior. "

Those damn liberal Republicans in Congress are always confirming treehugging a-holes that that Liberal top-level-treehugger GW Bush is nominating. (http://www.blm.gov/nhp/info/director_bio.htm)

Damn liberals with their agendas and know-it-all BS...

[desertdude]

Education happens when you buy a machine new or used at the time of reg. Read a pamphlet answer some questions. It is a start, not a cure. Funny all the beer cans on the side of the road are always bud light or coors. Who should pay for that clean up, It all goes back to the manufacturers kicking back something to the states where the sell the goods.

[TexomaFJ40]

Are you saying that the manufactures of the beer should be responsible for the cleanup costs? Isn't that like saying handgun manufactures are responsible for the victims of gun crimes?

[desertdude]

Quote: Are you saying that the manufactures of the beer should be responsible for the cleanup costs?

yes I am saying this, and they should be responsible for education. As should be manufacturers of off-road machines ( more than just a few words in the manual)
-----------------------------------------------------

Quote: Isn't that like saying handgun manufactures are responsible for the victims of gun crimes?

no, the statement above sounds to me like an extreme metaphor, I think it is very different. I am talking about throwing trash on the ground, and riding machines off trails, and where you start the education process and who should pay for it.

[swank60]

Originally Posted by desertdude

Education happens when you buy a machine new or used at the time of reg. Read a pamphlet answer some questions. It is a start, not a cure. Funny all the beer cans on the side of the road are always bud light or coors. Who should pay for that clean up, It all goes back to the manufacturers kicking back something to the states where the sell the goods.

You know, there is a trend in marketing toward that sort of added value, especailly in the pet goods sector. I do work for one of the world's largest dog carrier/kennel manufacturers and on the front page of their website is a link that downloads a PDF that helps you train your dog in a carrier/kennel so it won't freak out and kill it's self (you can't just stick them in a box and expect them to stay there - they have to be trained) - so is the manufacturer responsible? Someone who does something stupid and kills their dog always seems to think so.

Another good example is the pet food industry. Head to the Purina website and you can find tons of info that goes way beyond just how to feed your pet.

The backpacking industry is sort of the same way, with the heavy push for the "Leave no Trace" program. That's probably part of the reason why they have a better argument when if comes to dividing lands between hikers and 4x4s.

[VTCruiser]

"education" is hardy the word. It's more common sense and a set of morals. I have never been out west "wheelin'" so i don't know the set up but people know what they are there for. Call it "experiencing the wilderness" or "appreciating nature's beauty" but it doens't take an "education" per say, to know not to destroy what you are there to appreciate. how about posting signs saying: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" or "Don't shit where you eat" maybe then they will get the idea...

As for whos responsible for the cost of clean-up etc. How about more Clubs and User Organizations doing more (or more publicized) "clean-up" events to help with the situation? Wheeling events can be organized for that reason, to pick up litter, and "maintain" the parks we enjoy taking advantage of. Maybe we can start dropping our "bad guys" reputation....?

[desertdude]

In some countries throwing garbage on the ground is common practice. Not everyone was raised/learned/educated on the effects of this type of behavior.

I always thought a good cattle prod would be a good learning tool

I once was heading up to the top of a local Mt. on a well traveled fire-road. There was this Chevy truck on the other side of the road stopped, somebody was taking a leak he then before he new I saw him threw down a bud light can. I stopped and looked at the can then at him and said " your gonna pick that up right"? he said" oh I just dropped out of my hands" yeah right I though. He was caught in the act. And not so funny, he looked like the stereo-typical beer can-litter-neck-hick

I am in big favor of trail clean up through users and clubs, and are planning a few right now in my local area. But long term this should start at the top where it begins

[hj60]

Hey, D-dude, now that I have most weekends off, let me know when you want to organise
a cleanup run.
I'll take any excuse to get up there.

"Pack out more than you pack in."
I tend to bring a few trashbags with me when I'm out in the wild. If I stop to camp, I clean
up the site a bit before leaving. This includes what was there before I got there.
If we all picked up one piece of someone else's trash every time we went out
wheeling/camping/hiking/hunting/fishing, there'd eventually be nothing left out there.
Well, til the next yahoo drops a can while pissing on our trails.

[desertdude]

Will do Jonathan, maybe a hook up/trail clean up next month when I return to AZ...

[skyshark186]

Wait till your MIP happy cops find twenty beer cans in the back of your wheelin rig(faded from age a full of dirt) and drag your under 21 ass to court. Thatll sour your view of being a nice guy a little.

Im all for the land and i try to educate everyone i wheel with but the guys who know the difinition of the word wheelin aint the problem. Is some rich yuppies son who has had everything handed to him to likes the "sporty outdoors look" of his jeep.

Ignorance is the earths worst enemy. But weve got as on both sides of the matter. The greenparty are just the parents of the drunken trail trashing teenagers causing just as many problems as their kids.

[hj60]

Hey, DD-
We're back on.
Gonna make it a trail cleanup / birfday party.
We should see if we can't get the rest of the AZ guys to join in, as well as a few of my non-wheeling peeps. Gotta see who's got open shotgun seats.
Can't think of a better way to spend my birfday weekend.
Well, it'd be better if I was wheeling the 60. :x

[Russ in California]

They won't be happy till there's no internal combustion engines left.
Russ

[water]

Originally Posted by Russ in California

They won't be happy till there's no internal combustion engines left.
Russ

BMW internal combustion hydrogen http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?2424

To Swank60, you sound angry dude. Did a bleeding heart liberal steal your lunch money? I'd ask the same question to a yuppie democrat that claims all conservatives are cousin-sexing rednecks. What kind of attitudes are those to have for people that work hard every day to help make your life a little better, regardless of their political affiliation.

Therefore, I'm independent. I'm amazed at how angry Reps and Dems get at each other; it makes all of you look stupid and immature, all of 7 years old. THEN who's gonna listen to your bitching? And that's on either side of the aisle.

[swank60]

Originally Posted by water

BMW internal combustion hydrogen http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?2424

To Swank60, you sound angry dude. Did a bleeding heart liberal steal your lunch money? I'd ask the same question to a yuppie democrat that claims all conservatives are cousin-sexing rednecks. What kind of attitudes are those to have for people that work hard every day to help make your life a little better, regardless of their political affiliation.

Hey look everybody, this guy is calling me a Conservative/Right Winger (I think)

Ughh...you might want to go ahead and read the whole thread before you start bashing me. Also, isn't there an implied sense of irony in calling a Republican run congress, Utah state gov and the group in the White House a bunch of "Liberals"?? IIRC, the start of this thread was bending toward how "Liberal Democrats" are ruining EVERYTHING...and if you read my post you'll actually see that I point out that those in charge are "Conservative" - anyway, just go back and read the whole thread and give your well thought out input a little more thought...also, just to help, check out this - it might help you weed through my post.

So, to stick with the "immature" theme you set - nah-nanny-boo-boo, stick your head in shit.

sidenote: my personality in this post is best described as this

[PHBeerman]

Originally Posted by swank60

Hey look everybody, this guy is calling me a Conservative/Right Winger (I think)
Ughh...you might want to go ahead and read the whole thread before you start bashing me. Also, isn't there an implied sense of irony in calling a Republican run congress, Utah state gov and the group in the White House a bunch of "Liberals"?? IIRC, the start of this thread was bending toward how "Liberal Democrats" are ruining EVERYTHING...and if you read my post you'll actually see that I point out that those in charge are "Conservative" - anyway, just go back and read the whole thread and give your well thought out input a little more thought...also, just to help, check out this - it might help you weed through my post.

So, to stick with the "immature" theme you set - nah-nanny-boo-boo, stick your head in shit.

sidenote: my personality in this post is best described as this

What a fawking moron. Everyone knows you are the biggest treehugger of the bunch.

[sandcruiser]

Originally Posted by TexomaFJ40

Are you saying that the manufactures of the beer should be responsible for the cleanup costs? Isn't that like saying handgun manufactures are responsible for the victims of gun crimes?

Culpability isn't the issue here. Obviously the beer/gun manufacturer is making money from the folks who are using their product(s). Also obvious, the company in question has an opportunity to engage in communication with the customer.

*If* the vendor/manufacturer is concerned about an ongoing problem associated with their product, it is in their best interest to take advantage of their resources and help convince the buyer to change their behavior.

Case in point: when we lived on the beach in Mission Beach, CA a major source of trash on the beach came from McDonalds. While my wife and I bitched about it and picked it up (we used to fill a grocery store back at least twice on an evening's walk) some other group started collecting McDonalds trash and dumping in front of the door every day. Guess what? McDonalds included a little "don't leave trash on the beach" flyer in with their food. I can't say for sure that the flyer made a difference because summer ended and the trash always eased up with autumn, but at least McDonalds noticed and tried to do something about it.

Seems that the big beer companies could easily include something in their advertising campaigns/labeling encouraging people to clean up after themselves.

As for the MIP citation idea: from what little I remember about being under 21 (too much beer), if you haven't had anything to drink you can probably just demand a breath/urine test and get out of an MIP pretty easily. If you've been drinking, well, maybe better not to collect empty beer cans.

[bad_religion_au]

tree lovers will love this next pic

[swank60]

Originally Posted by PHBeerman

What a fawking moron. Everyone knows you are the biggest treehugger of the bunch.

No kidding...sweet Jesus, what sort of crack is this guy smoking?

[water]

Originally Posted by sandcruiser

Culpability isn't the issue here. Obviously the beer/gun manufacturer is making money from the folks who are using their product(s). Also obvious, the company in question has an opportunity to engage in communication with the customer.

*If* the vendor/manufacturer is concerned about an ongoing problem associated with their product, it is in their best interest to take advantage of their resources and help convince the buyer to change their behavior.

If you make something that is discarded after a single use, not even consumed, but discarded then you should be held accountable. A nutrient of sorts, wasted...it could've gone back into the loop to make more bottles...t

We should all have to take our own bags to the grocery store. I'm tired of all the plastic bags I collect, that just sit under the counter or go in the trash. It's just wasteful. If they didnt have bags, I'd be carrying food out in my arms so I bet I'd remember next time to bring my grocery sack.

[concretejungle]

Originally Posted by water

If you make something that is discarded after a single use, not even consumed, but discarded then you should be held accountable. A nutrient of sorts, wasted...it could've gone back into the loop to make more bottles...t

We should all have to take our own bags to the grocery store. I'm tired of all the plastic bags I collect, that just sit under the counter or go in the trash. It's just wasteful. If they didnt have bags, I'd be carrying food out in my arms so I bet I'd remember next time to bring my grocery sack.

Damn dude, you are still around talking smack! So i guess you suggest that every chewing gum manufacturer in the world be held accountable for every piece of chewing gum that someone has spit out on the ground? Get a life, dude!

And by the way, i take my plastic grocery bags back to the store to recycle them!

[concretejungle]

Originally Posted by sandcruiser

Seems that the big beer companies could easily include something in their advertising campaigns/labeling encouraging people to clean up after themselves.

Honestly, do you think that someone will read a lable on a case of beer or on a can of beer and think, "it says i should throw this can in the trash, i never thought of that "
Sand, i'm not trying to bust your balls. I feel the same way you do. I just think it comes down to how an individual was raised, and how much respect they have for others and their environment. I wish it was different. I get pissed and honk and people for throwing cigarette butts out the window.

[sandcruiser]

I don't think that *most* people will read the can/carton and think: "Hey let's clean up"

But *some* might. And that's better than nothing.

There is a local company here in Costa Rica that has a great approach to recycling. If you bring in 10 empty containers of any of their products (they make a variety of things from soaps to cookies to dried fruit...) you get a free package of the same product.

The upshot is that the unfortunate folks who make ends meet by rooting through dumpsters often end up with a lot of shampoo.... which they then sell for cheap. But not as many packages end up in the landfilll.

Can you imagine how many people would keep their beer cans around if Budweiser said "bring in 12 empties and we'll give you a free beer!" I bet you would see an awful lot less trailside red and white...

[concretejungle]

Sancruiser, i am with you bro. I remember being in the mountains for college in a hick town and seeing all the trash that people would throw out. Really frustrating. They didn't realize what they have. One fella was throwing a cigarette but on the ground, when i said something to him about littering his comment was "hell, the elements will take care of it." I just thought to myself WTF!

It is really frustrating to try and do your part while someone else is canceling out your work by polluting twice as much. Fawkers!