Do others speak out on land issues or not?

[woody]

BTW: according to the DNR website, there is a meeting scheduled of the Trail Advisory Board...Nov 8th, 6:30pm...

http://www.midnr.com/pulications/pdf...V-SCHEDULE.pdf

you only live 75 miles away, and it's all interstate...should be easy to leave work at 5p and make the meeting in time. I'd love to read your personal report on what transpires.

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by woody

it says you are a car wreck, and everyone takes a peek at the carnage.

at least you still continue to so pathetically rely on your use of caps, bold, italics, color, and such versus addressing the issue.

with you on their side, it's no wonder there are 4wd land use problems in Michigan...please, please, please, please NEVER move to another state or take up another cause....

please.

Or, better yet, switch sides and start advocating for more land closures. We'd see the largest release of closed lands ever witnessed in the modern world.

But, seriously though. John, you may have some valid complaints, but how would anyone know when you can't articulate your points in any coherent manner?

[Mace]

I keep reading and still have no idea what you actually want..

Did you buy a copy of Catcher in the Rye lately???

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by 66fj40x2

"...In as few words as possible (I'm fairly simple and get bored with mindless dribble quickly), what are the solutions as YOU see them. Then how can the solutions be achieved?...."

#1) Do not allow nationally backed motorcycle leaders OR the state DNR to cancel public meetings for up to 6 months at a time.
Do not allow follow-up minutes of said meetings to be delayed for up to 8 weeks at a time.
Demand that all proceedings be recorded (as was been done in the past) to pin down just who said what, when and where involving literally millions of OUR MONEY. (and if the state cries 'funding crisis' as they did when cutting our meeting dates to less than even the snowmobilers are allowed....PAY FOR THE DAMN STENOGRAPHER OURSELVES).

#2) Do not allow the state to delay board appointments for the sake of keeping their 'good 'ol cycle boys' on the board in leadership positions. The state has already extended one "I'm the boss, by gosh" term without public notification...and heads into the next soon to expire terms (December) without even a public call for applicants as of today. This has been done so many times it has been impossible to keep track of....and causes all applicant's requests to be strung out over such a long period of time; that their actual appointment dates become impossible to ascertain (causing many good people to not even be availiable when the state finally gets their crap together).
A follow up would be the exclusion of any apllicant who doesn't run an elected organization with his or her position being elected itself. We sufferred many years through just such a board member refusing to answer any of our questions and the state/other board members/orv clubs backing this kind of nonsense up with rude replies to everybody complianing about their voice not being heard...and we're sick of it.

#3) Do not allow ANY non-profit organization to purposely operate beyond their applied for and admitted operational status for the sole purpose of lobbying issues behind closed doors and anonymously. This creates the arrogant CRAP we have to deal with now and leads to the same kind of embarrasment this community suffered just recently when a prominent national and local orv leader was reprimanded for failing the same organizational skill-set that we 'supposedly' teach other clubs out there on the national level.
If we stand by and applaud those sneaking around with bags on their heads and operating blatantly on the fringes of lawful propriety....we are no different than anybody who gets caught red-handed with their hands in the cookie jar.(see the recent proposal here requesting the TRIPLING of subsidized training funds while leaving all other 'non-sessential' funding percentages the same).

There's three that don't even TOUCH the "issue" side of our sport and have driven this state into the flat out worst club participation rate in this country.(compare us with any state you would like of our size).

When you drive good people away year after year with this kind of nationally accepted rude arrogance....this is the kind of pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-curtain program that you receive.

Here's a good one.....how about simply demanding that these guys:
Board members may be contacted through the (DNR) staff assistant .....
.....quit ignoring our requests to simply publish their contact info like these 'men' do every day:
Printer Friendly Text Version Email Page Text SizeSnowmobile Advisory Committee Members
James W. Duke
Region I, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2006
N7719 Ridge Road
Munsing, MI 49862
906-387-3941
FAX 906-387-3954
e-mail: jimduke@up.net
William Lucas
Region II, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
6218 Avon Lane
Cadillac, MI 49601
231-775-4344
e-mail: bjluc@prodigy.net
William Manson, Jr. - Chair
Region III, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
4336 Plainfield Ave., NE
Grand Rapids, MI 49525-1672
616-301-2743
FAX 616-363-0661
e-mail: billmsa@aol.com
Lee Murray
At-Large Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2006
PO Box 267
3150 Jefferson
Hopkins, MI 49328
269-793-7183
FAX 269-793-4022
e-mail: lee@sebrightproducts.com
Jack Nelson
Nelson's Speed Shop
Business Community Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
4566 North Greenville Road
Greenville, MI 48838
616-754-9185
FAX 616-754-5780
e-mail: nelson@pathwaynet.com
Orville Olson

....etc.
....instead of forcing the public to go through 'the DNR' first??? (if you were running a state agency....wouldn't YOU like to be the 'gatekeeper' for all requests involving possible complaints about the job that YOU'RE doing???).

And the list goes on and on.....

[woooody]

You ignored woody's post (#91). Let me repeat it:

BTW: according to the DNR website, there is a meeting scheduled of the Trail Advisory Board...Nov 8th, 6:30pm...

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pd...V-SCHEDULE.pdf

you only live 75 miles away, and it's all interstate...should be easy to leave work at 5p and make the meeting in time. I'd love to read your personal report on what transpires.

Maybe using silly fonts will help you see it.

[woooody]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

#2) Do not allow the state to delay board appointments for the sake of keeping their 'good 'ol cycle boys' on the board in leadership positions. The state has already extended one "I'm the boss, by gosh" term without public notification...and heads into the next soon to expire terms (December) without even a public call for applicants as of today. This has been done so many times it has been impossible to keep track of....and causes all applicant's requests to be strung out over such a long period of time; that their actual appointment dates become impossible to ascertain (causing many good people to not even be availiable when the state finally gets their crap together).
A follow up would be the exclusion of any apllicant who doesn't run an elected organization with his or her position being elected itself. We sufferred many years through just such a board member refusing to answer any of our questions and the state/other board members/orv clubs backing this kind of nonsense up with rude replies to everybody complianing about their voice not being heard...and we're sick of it.

According to thier bylaws, there are only two elected positions. Chairman and vice chairman.


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...3972--,00.html

ARTICLE II

SECTION 1 - CHAIRPERSON AND VICE-CHAIRPERSON

The Officers of the Board shall consist of a Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson. Said officers shall serve for a period of one (1) year with the term to expire the final scheduled meeting of each calendar year. An annual election shall be held for Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson.


As for your concern that all you can do is speak, and not get answers, you need to get your questions onto their agenda.

Have you ever gone to a City Council meeting? Or any public agency meeting? Most only have a public comment section, and it's usually to speak about specific issues that are on that meetings Agenda. So if they are going to vote on snow mobile access, they give the public a chance to speak about it prior to voting. There is nothing in their bylaws that requires them to answer any public question. However, any Board Member has the ability to discuss those questions if they choose.

What you need to do is find a like minded individual on that Board. Their website doesn't show who is on it, or where they draw from. But I gaurantee that if you were part of a club, who was sanctioned by a nationally respected organization, you would have a little more clout.

Or, you can continue to yell at us, and hope that we can fix your problem. What was your member number again?

[Mace]

I will continue to predominate the acrimonious by virtue of the sesquipedialian desires of the broughams. You see the dirt bikers have spreathed all others into believing the thrutched the masses in an effort to pyrolize the DNR.

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by Mace

I will continue to predominate the acrimonious by virtue of the sesquipedialian desires of the broughams. You see the dirt bikers have spreathed all others into believing the thrutched the masses in an effort to pyrolize the DNR.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, you have to warn someone before you do that. I now have to clean Pepsi out of my keyboard
And it really burns when it comes out your nose.

[TUFFTORQ]

hillarious

Originally Posted by Mace

I will continue to predominate the acrimonious by virtue of the sesquipedialian desires of the broughams. You see the dirt bikers have spreathed all others into believing the thrutched the masses in an effort to pyrolize the DNR.

[nuclearlemon]

i used to be a dirt biker...does that make me evil incarnate?

[woody]

Originally Posted by nuclearlemon

i used to be a dirt biker...does that make me evil incarnate?

you ARE an evil incarnate, but that's not the reason

[wardfoto]

Originally Posted by Mace

I will continue to predominate the acrimonious by virtue of the sesquipedialian desires of the broughams. You see the dirt bikers have spreathed all others into believing the thrutched the masses in an effort to pyrolize the DNR.

well played sir, well played. (insert standing ovation here)

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

Train wreck indeed. I wonder if he made the meeting???

I think he wants these groups to do what he wants them to do....... and call him everyday to tell him that they are doing it.....? Or something like that.

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

Anyone else notice that even the title of this thread is condescending?

No, no one else speaks out about land issues, just you.

Goodnight.

[MichiganChapter?]

From the NOHVCC site:
The Agency Workshop objectives are:

• To develop a better understanding of the needs and concerns of OHV enthusiasts and other stakeholders in implementation of the USFS Travel Management Rule
• To improve the quality and the sustainability of trails, trail systems and areas through the implementation process
• To improve OHV enthusiast and other stakeholder input and support for the implementation process
• To increase partnerships between the USFS, the OHV industry, OHV enthusiasts and other stakeholders
• To facilitate better communication between the USFS, OHV enthusiasts and other stakeholders

From the Michigan-based AtvOffRoad.net site:
#6
11-06-2006, 12:11 PM
Yoo vbmenu_register("postmenu_30649", true);
ATV Offroad Guest
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ontonagon, Michigan



Good meeting!
I attended all *4 days*. It was a very informative meeting and I learned a lot! I highly recommend that when one of these workshops comes to your area that you attend.

Only thing that I did not like about the meeting is the chance for Organization people to have time set aside for them *to talk with each other.*

Skip (Yoo)
President Mi-TRALE

[Greg Mumm]

I assume the *insert bold text here* is your way of saying the worksops failed in these areas according to Skip Schultz of MI-TRALE?

That is good and verifiable information and I will ask Skip if he is being represented properly by you here. If it is true, I'm quite sure Skip would have either brought it up at the meeting or added it to his comment sheet on the workshop. We'll hear about it at the next planning meeting.

Of course, had you actually shown up for what you signed up for, you would have been at the meeting and you could have given a first hand accounting yourself. But you didn't so you can't.

I have actually been to the meetings, in fact, helped to write some of the modules they present. What is shared and promoted is very valuable to the Agency folks and to the enthusiasts. The workshop also includes lots of good information on how we can work with the agency and how the agency can work with you.

Right now, there is not a specific time set aside in these particular workshops to sit and talk with each other. Of course, that isn't the point. However, there is plenty of break time and free lunches in which opportunities need to be taken to get to know the other participants... agency and enthusiasts.

Dude, if you put just half the negative energy you have poured into your efforts here into something positive for OHV recreation, it would amaze you at what you might actuallly be able to get done.

Then again, real effectiveness would require you to stop the "at the ready" personal attacks on the good folks who are trying to get something done that flow so freely from you.

Greg

[Greg Mumm]

Originally Posted by Greg Mumm

...Dude, if you put just half the negative energy you have poured into your efforts here into something positive for OHV recreation, it would amaze you at what you might actuallly be able to get done.

Then again, real effectiveness would require you to stop the "at the ready" personal attacks on the good folks who are trying to get something done that flow so freely from you.

Greg

What is more, I know a lot of these folks you attack, they are good folks and were they to see you making a sincere effort, they would come around to help you in your efforts.

Instead of going on the attack with, "You guys are the scum of the earth and screwing the rest of us... blah, blah, blah."

Try, "How can we work together to improve the trail situation for the rest of us... blah, blah, blah?"

Instead of, "I demand you hire a stenographer and get me the notes by... yada, yada, yada."

Try, "What can I do to help facilitate a more efficient way of keeping and publishing them quicker... yada, yada, yada."

A simple change in tack is most often all it takes to be more effective in your quests.

Greg

[brew8]

Why don't you look up your state orginizations and see what they can do for you on local trail issues, There are a number of groups here in Montana they have mailing lists and blog type forums you can find some one to align with, if you don't like or can't work with on go find another, the rest of this gives me a headache. Larry

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by woooody

The Officers of the Board shall consist of a Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson. Said officers shall serve for a period of one (1) year with the term to expire the final scheduled meeting of each calendar year. An annual election shall be held for Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson.

Glenn F. Moll (Glenn has been a board member since 2002)
Representing: ORV Users
Term Expires: 12/31/2006
Dick Ranney (Dick has been a board member and chair since 2002; his previous term expired 12/31/*05*
Representing: ORV Users
Term Expires: 12/31/2006

[woooody]

god -- I thought you had given up. Seriously, thought you had been beaten into submission, realized that you were barkin up the wrong tree - something.

But NOOOOOO -- 3 months later, you're back.

So what's your point? Their term expired, and they were re-elected. So what? Did anyone else run against them?

Are you implying that there is some sort of term limit? Doesn't say that. Just says that the term is one year. They can have 2, 5 or 10 terms in a row.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by Greg Mumm

"What is more, I know a lot of these folks you attack, they are good folks..."

Greg

From the Michigan DNR website:
Glenn F. Moll
Representing: ORV Users
Term Expires: 12/31/2006
Dick Ranney
Representing: ORV Users
Term Expires: 12/31/2006

(Michigan Chapter):
Note: The chairman above is now working on his 2nd expired term.
There was no announcement from the state or anyone else last year (his first term expired 12/31/05) and no announcement obviously this year as to just when the Michigan orv community will be allowed to even 'apply' for these representative positions.

Add the fact that this guy has formed a "22,000 member" representative council which has continued to remain anonymous for literally years now through continual pressure for its members to simply 'reveal' themselves....and you get the picture as to how these guys operate right on up to and including the national level.

[woooody]

Oh, By the way, Are you going to attend the next meeting?

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...a_184072_7.pdf

Holiday Inn Lansing-West
7501 West Saginaw Highway
Lansing, Michigan
February 7, 2007

First item under new business:

New Business
A. Annual Election of Officers

[woooody]

Did you check the Feb 2006 Minutes?

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Fe...a_148981_7.pdf

Chair and Vice chair were elected Feb 8th, 2006.

Wanna change that? Then run. Put up or shut up.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

From the Michigan DNR website:
Glenn F. Moll
Representing: ORV Users
Term Expires: 12/31/2006
Dick Ranney
Representing: ORV Users
Term Expires: 12/31/2006

(Michigan Chapter):
Note: The chairman above is now working on his 2nd expired term.
There was no announcement from the state or anyone else last year (his first term expired 12/31/05) and no announcement this year as to when the Michigan orv community will be allowed to even 'apply' for these representative positions.

Add the fact that this guy formed a "22,000 member" representative council which has remained anonymous for literally years now....and you get the picture as to how these guys operate right on up to and including the national level.

[cruiser88]

WOW and i thought my paragraphs was shit . Ya know for the first hundred posts i thought this guy was a treehugger here to stirr shit. NOW i know this is not the case. Are you a meth user perhaps or just a We all speak english here give it a shot IT WORKS.may I suggest you align yourself WITH THE N.S.S they know alot of folks and thats not a wisecrack. Goggle it. Then go caving while leaving nothing but footfrints

[MichiganChapter?]

(quote=woooody):
]"So what's your point? Their term expired, and they were re-elected. So what? Did anyone else run against them?..."

Terms are for chairman and vice-chairman within the board structure.
Board members who represent the orv community are hand-picked by the state and installed for multi-year terms that end with new applicants (suppposedly) being publicly sought.

"....Are you implying that there is some sort of term limit? Doesn't say that. Just says that the term is one year. They can have 2, 5 or 10 terms in a row....."

The state used to post a chart which simply explained to us out here in the peon public when these multi-year representative terms began and ended. After these deadlines and term(s) were extended not once but twice in regards to their hand-picked chairman.....the charts inexplainably 'disappeared' from the website without explanation (as did the term extensions).

Here is another comparison as to how Greg's 'buddies' make their public contact info availiable to us out here in the peon general public:(another simple request that our snowmobilers obviously have no problem with; yet one which has been arrogantly ignored for literally years by the 'good people' our national orv leaders refer to):

Snowmobile Advisory Committee Members
James W. Duke
Region I, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2008
N7719 Ridge Road
Munsing, MI 49862
906-387-3941
FAX 906-387-3954
e-mail: jimduke@up.net
William Lucas
Region II, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
6218 Avon Lane
Cadillac, MI 49601
231-775-4344
e-mail: bjluc@prodigy.net
William Manson, Jr. - Chair
Region III, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
4336 Plainfield Ave., NE
Grand Rapids, MI 49525-1672
616-301-2743
FAX 616-363-0661
e-mail: billmsa@aol.com
Lee Murray
At-Large Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2008
PO Box 267
3150 Jefferson
Hopkins, MI 49328
269-793-7183
FAX 269-793-4022
e-mail: lee@sebrightproducts.com
Jack Nelson
Nelson's Speed Shop
Business Community Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
4566 North Greenville Road
Greenville, MI 48838
616-754-9185
FAX 616-754-5780
e-mail: nelson@pathwaynet.com
Orville Olson
At-Large Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2008
2133 N. Sherman
Ludington, MI 49431-9597
231-590-0147
or 231-843-2905
FAX 231-843-2905
e-mail: orvolson@charter.net
David L. Thomas
Trail Sponsors
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
311 West Main Street
Marquette, MI 49855
906-249-5488
e-mail: DLThomas@chartermi.net


Meet the ORV Advisory Board:
Board members may be contacted through the staff assistant Steve Kubisiak @ 517-373-1665 or email kubisias@michigan.gov

So what would be your next excuse for these guys there, Woody.....hmmmm?

Maybe something about how Greg and his national organization (or yours) is 'all for' simple procedural protocol.....in every state but Michigan?

Tell me something, my friend....what kind of questions woul YOU be asking on this forum if the above was supported nationally in YOUR area and YOU were called every name in the book for (god forbid) even so much as daring to question it?
How about if I cancelled your quarterly TLCA meeting for 6 months....and then didn't bother to release any minutes of the last meeting held for 8 weeks after that? (until you were forced to call and demand that they finally be published?).

Flame away or boot me off this thing, my friend; as you obviously are of the opinion that these guys do no wrong ......right on up to (and including) the national level.

[woooody]

I don't know what you want from us.

I'll ask it again.

Oh, By the way, Are you going to attend the next meeting?

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...a_184072_7.pdf

Holiday Inn Lansing-West
7501 West Saginaw Highway
Lansing, Michigan
February 7, 2007

First item under new business:

New Business
A. Annual Election of Officers

[JuttyShabango]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

(quote=woooody):


Tell me something, my friend....what kind of questions woul YOU be asking on this forum if the above was supported nationally in YOUR area and YOU were called every name in the book for (god forbid) even so much as daring to question it?
How about if I cancelled your quarterly TLCA meeting for 6 months....and then didn't bother to release any minutes of the last meeting held for 8 weeks after that? (until you were forced to call and demand that they finally be published?).

Flame away or boot me off this thing, my friend; as you obviously are of the opinion that these guys do no wrong ......right on up to (and including) the national level.

MichiganChapter,

You need to go away....and I'm being nice about this.
We're not going to flame you... we are simply going to ignore you till you can offer this club, TLCA, something other than your useless rhetoric.

You are not going to use the TLCA as a lightning rod for you "issues" and expect us to care. We are all volunteers here, and feel Greg is doing a great job with the resources he has...and as you know..clubs, volunteers, etc. are political..its their inherent nature. Get over it or get out of it. Plain and simple..

Right now..until you can quit belching your crap all over this board..you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by woooody

First item under new business:

New Business
A. Annual Election of Officers

Nice try on the re-direct ...yet these multi-year representative board terms weren't ever "annual" to begin with and are supposed to be publicly applied for long before these terms expired.(again, the chair is working on his 2nd unannounced/expired term...and not his first).

[cruiser88]

Not This Shit Again

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by JuttyShabango

MichiganChapter,

You need to go away.....

No problem.

Simply take one last look at the leader our national guys defend on page 4 here before this meeting's adjournment....and I'm gone. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...s_179305_7.pdf