Do others speak out on land issues or not?

[woody]

all this and your writing style still sucks...if you speak the same way, I'd hang up on you.

[Mace]

I am gonn go home and drink a lot to try to understand what this guy says...


I'm thinkin that seriously fuzzy eyes will help me understand.


I still have no idea what area this guy is talking about.

[wardfoto]

mace, it's because he doesn't either.
if he did he would
1. tell us who he is.(like a man)

2 tell us specific trail names and places.(like a man)

3. figure out t.l.c.a is a car club that donates to land use orgs, NOT a land use org.

4. finally, and most importantly, say it without all the quotes, italics, and bolds, so that it sounded conversational, not like charlie manson rants.

5. be a man, act like a man, and step up and give us specifics, in such a way that we can forward your concerns to the proper groups. we at this club, however are not the proper group. we can only do so much, and in this case, even less, since these rants are nonsensical at best, and malice at worst.

6. i'm justin. t.l.c.a. member 5501, b.o.d. delegate, and land user in many and varied forms.(now that was manly )

[TUFFTORQ]

John, Once again I must ask what YOU have done other than run your alligator mouth off to address these issues you seem to have with all of these organizations? I have an idea for you. Why don't you saddle up your brand spankin' new bright yellow FJ from Michigan and attend a TLCA event and discuss these issues like a rationale adult? Come awn, John! Form a group in Michigan with your passionate beliefs and take the bull by the horn. Why do you need TLCA? "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." Other than irritating the various TLCA members that visit this forum, what kind of effect do you honestly think your having by rambling on this non-sense? Your merely making a name for yourself and this cruiser community is relatively small. Try a different approach, John!

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

.....and I'm supposed to look into forming a TLCA chapter here in Michigan because they will support me in what way?

[TUFFTORQ]

Originally Posted by wardfoto

6. i'm justin. t.l.c.a. member 5501, b.o.d. delegate, and land user in many and varied forms.(now that was manly )

Damn that's manly, Justin!

[wardfoto]

(insert best elvis impersonation here) thank you, thank you very much.
now, somebody bring me peanut butter and nanner sandwich!!!!

[Mace]

read it drunk.. Didn't help..

:sad:

[TUFFTORQ]

Originally Posted by Mace

read it drunk.. Didn't help..

:sad:

...And we were all looking forward to your interpertation of this non-sense

[Mace]

Well if that is all you wanted

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by wardfoto

"...3. figure out t.l.c.a is a car club that donates to land use orgs, NOT a land use org...."

Which is exactly why land use organizations and local orv leaders treat the majority orv community out there with such little respect; as I've described in detail above.

You guys may enjoy being told to keep your mouths shut when motorcyclists grab our land/put up barriers; 50 vs 60" trail issues are rightly debated or even when 'untouchable' anonymous councils are brought out into the light of day...yet frankly, this is where blindly 'donating' only stops for me.

Proudly declaring that you are NOT a land use organization and simply "a car club" certainly puts my original intentions as to forming a Michigan TLCA chapter here in perspective. It also answers a glaring question I've had from the beginning as to how somebody could ever go from leading a bunch of guys with this 'donate only' attitude...to becomming the #1 leader of the recipient of those same funds.

It's not about insisting that your position or anyone else's should 'rule the day' folks....it's about whether that undisputed and factually proven position ever actually sees 'the light of day' in the first place.(which is why you see nothing but personal attacks here....and not even one counter-claim or rebuttal on any of the issues brought forward for the sake of our future generation's opportunity to get involved in orv issues).

And if you guys are about describing yourselves as simply/only "a car club" while covering the land use/maintenance/legacy part of our off-road responsibilities with an unquestioned "donation only" and a bumper sticker to sone far-off west-focused national organization...then I'm saying that your kids will most certainly miss out on the grass-roots involvement needed in their future quests to access those same lands that you do so together today.

'Bumper stickers' don't stop motorcyclists from shutting down our trails forever or being dragged kicking and screaming into this majority community and the 60" width law that they've wanted us to ignore for years...orv leaders who don't have to strap a set on for every question asked...DO.

[TUFFTORQ]

How familiar are you really with the local ORV/OHV leaders and the land use organizations? Your not a member of either of them, so it makes me wonder if your truly as passionate as you claim to be or your merely a web wheeler. I can truly understand why no one is listening or supporting your issues-because they don't respect you; They do support the TLCA organization and the many land use organizations that our members contribute to throughout the year.

I doubt you ever had any intentions of forming a Michigan TLCA chapter. If you did, you would have taken the bull by the horns and initiated the process. Let's face it, you are full of hot air and have no desire to contribute or participate. All talk and no action. Just curious how many other Michigan cruzah owners are supporting your belief's or efforts...

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Which is exactly why land use organizations and local orv leaders treat the majority orv community out there with such little respect; as I've described in detail above.

Proudly declaring that you are NOT a land use organization and simply "a car club" certainly puts my original intentions as to forming a Michigan TLCA chapter here in perspective. It also answers a glaring question I've had from the beginning as to how somebody could ever go from leading a bunch of guys with this 'donate only' attitude...to becomming the #1 leader of the recipient of those same funds.
DO.

[66fj40x2]

So I've followed this thread for a while now and finally see a few of the issues you seem to have with BRC, Greg Mumm and TLCA for donating to BRC. It seems to take you a lot more verbiage to say what's on your mind then it most folks, but to each his own. So far all I've read are complaints.

In as few words as possible (I'm fairly simple and get bored with mindless dribble quickly), what are the solutions as YOU see them. Then how can the solutions be achieved?

[MichiganChapter?]

Another FYI:
Motorcycle "clubs" ignore critical and contoversial issues such as 'sissy' sound levels and fight hard for the 'right to choose' involving helmet use.

Responsible legacy-driven orv activists take the opposite stance on both and reject the idea of any fellow light orv rider seaparating himself from us all over some kind of god-given right to shut down non-paralell trails to the rest of us.

National leaders keep their mouth shut on all of the above and much more (incl. 'pay-to-play') for the simple reason that standing up like a man on any of theseimportant issues may affect his income directly by reduced contributions from one or possibly both of the above.

I would send my money in all day long to the responsible legacy-driven orv activist.....yet how many hundreds do you think I've wasted already on "who's going to bring the weenies/beer this weekend" clubs insisting that displaying a national orv organization 'bumper sticker' is all the additional involvement I need put forward?(and by gosh don't ask any questions of them...or us!).

[TUFFTORQ]

well, based on your posts and irrational threads in various forums, I venture to believe that you have spent nothing more than hot air. Many of us have asked over and over, what is your solution to the various land use issues? If you don't have a solution (or atleast an idea) and your not a member of TLCA or any of the various land use organizations that exist, why should we even entertain your ramblings any further? Take your weenies/beer and find another forum to annoy folks.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

I would send my money in all day long to the responsible legacy-driven orv activist.....yet how many hundreds do you think I've wasted already on "who's going to bring the weenies/beer this weekend" clubs insisting that displaying a national orv organization 'bumper sticker' is all the additional involvement I need put forward?(and by gosh don't ask any questions of them...or us!).

[Mace]

I figured out something in the rambles!!!!

One thing you have to think about. All OHV use is threattened. Snomobile, bike, motorcycle etc.. We all have to work together for a solution. Slamming the other OHV'ers is counterproductive. If they are trying to get a certain area desiginated to their use work with them. Give them a "safe" place to play lto make sure that they are nto getting picked off my the larger vehicles.

BTW,
WTF is a legacy driven OHV activist??

Second, the sierra club as done amazingly well with bumper stickers. Don't belittle the little things

So, what was your TLCA # again?

[wardfoto]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Which is exactly why land use organizations and local orv leaders treat the majority orv community out there with such little respect; as I've described in detail above.

so, being a car club gets us treated with less respect? don't see how but ok.and i'm still looking for detail in any thing you have posted here.
now if you are referring to the fact that i said we are a car club that donates, not a land use org, then your response still doesn't make any sense.we donate, have people who are active in land use, and people who go to meetings, write letters, and get the work done by being out there, playing to win.

You guys may enjoy being told to keep your mouths shut when motorcyclists grab our land/put up barriers; 50 vs 60" trail issues are rightly debated or even when 'untouchable' anonymous councils are brought out into the light of day...yet frankly, this is where blindly 'donating' only stops for me.

nobody has once ever told me to keep my mouth shut about land use issues. if this is the way you are being treated, there are two possibilities.
1. stop whining, rambling, incoherent rabble rousing. use thought out, concise, point making presentations. try it, you might like how it works.
2. stop being involved with the groups that are doing this(assuming it's not just trying to keep YOU quiet...) and start your own land use group. nothing is more effective than seperating from the powers that be if they really don't care, and becoming a caring power that is. all it takes is the skill and know how, and lots of time. you got these? then make it happen, and push for the things you care about. you know, like a man.
oh. if these groups really exist, and have members, recieve public money, and are still anonymous, then something is wrong in michigan. every group i know of that makes the majority of it's money through the donation process must list the officers of that group. look into it, then you'll be armed with the information you seem to think does not exist.
by the way, these ramblings still have not brought anything into the light of day. we've asked. you still have not provided. we want to help, yet you seem determined to keep any actual information to yourself. makes it tough. kinda like you seem to think these groups are doing. maybe they are, but the tactic seems to be your preferred method as well.

Proudly declaring that you are NOT a land use organization and simply "a car club" certainly puts my original intentions as to forming a Michigan TLCA chapter here in perspective. It also answers a glaring question I've had from the beginning as to how somebody could ever go from leading a bunch of guys with this 'donate only' attitude...to becomming the #1 leader of the recipient of those same funds.

not "proudly" declaring anything. telling you what is up. you seem to think that somebody here is going to be your catalyst for change. we are a bunch of cruiser heads, all trying to do our part, whatever that might be, to wrench, work, spend family time, wheel, and keep the places we love to wheel open.
alot of us do this by donating to groups we feel most closely resemble our beliefs and intentions. we do this both as a club, and as individuals.
here in texas, we support our private parks. because that's where we wheel. lots of land, but not much is available, other than private. pay to play? yep. and it keeps the places open that we wheel. you might have to pay to play as well, and if so, then you don't have to worry about closures any more. and you are guaranteed a place to play. most places are not outrageous in the fees charged, and that works.
if you were, in fact, thinking of starting up a michigan chapter, then why did you come here in an antagonistic fashion, right from the get go? and why haven't you made any sense, ever? see, here's the rub. we want, and have asked for, specifics. you haven't given any. you talk about the largest trail system, yet provide no names, places, or details.
as members of chapters, we would be giving out every specific we could, in an attempt at making sure we got everybody on board to help with our fight.
and who exactly, went from "leading a bunch of guys" to being in charge of what group?
if it is indeed greg mumm to whom you refer, then i will re-iterate for you here that he never led us. he was a member, and still is. but he has never been a president of this club. fact checking works wonders. try it.

It's not about insisting that your position or anyone else's should 'rule the day' folks....it's about whether that undisputed and factually proven position ever actually sees 'the light of day' in the first place.(which is why you see nothing but personal attacks here....and not even one counter-claim or rebuttal on any of the issues brought forward for the sake of our future generation's opportunity to get involved in orv issues).

it seems as though this IS all about insisting your position rules the day. your position has attempted the light of day, but the nonsensical nature of it pretty much rules that out
there has been no counter claim or rebuttal for a couple of reasons. first and foremost, we are not in michigan. we do not know what is happening there, even with these supposed facts being tossed about by you.
if they are facts, give us useful information on it. then we pass it on to the groups who are involved at the political level, thereby attempting to put that info in the hands of those who daily are involved in this fight. you still have not given us specific information, pointed us to anything other than that the meeting was posted late, nor have you given info as to which groups are showing up to these meetings. if the majority Is motorcycle, guess what happens. if you feel you are being squeezed out, make sure the ohv group shows up to represent an equal share. that's how it works.
if you are the only person showing up, well, you won't be able to make much of a fight. but if two hundred show up, now you're talking. try that. we as a club, can not all come to michigan to stand up with you. sorry. start up a t.l.c.a. chapter, and create your army from there. the future generation will fight for this of it's own accord. we fight for ourselves and for them, but make no mistake, they will fight of their own volition. ask any parent of a teen ager. we have to be cohesive, and you do that through the larger mass of these land use orgs, and through showing up to meetings, and showing your support of all land users, not just yourself.
and getting physically involved. clean ups, trail maintenance, emergency aid, all ways to better your self to those that make these decisions.

And if you guys are about describing yourselves as simply/only "a car club" while covering the land use/maintenance/legacy part of our off-road responsibilities with an unquestioned "donation only" and a bumper sticker to sone far-off west-focused national organization...then I'm saying that your kids will most certainly miss out on the grass-roots involvement needed in their future quests to access those same lands that you do so together today.

i'd like to point out that we are in fact, a car club. i know it's difficult to understand, but that is what t.l.c.a. is. we donate to land use groups, to make our money count through those who do that for a living. we also go to meetings in our local areas, write our congress people, and generally do our best to be heard above the din. if all land users got together, we'd BE the din, but there seems to be too much infighting for this to occur. i also donate through my mountain bike club, and through my kayak club. i pay my fees to public parks as a photographer to gain acces to areas i might not otherwise see.
i do not have a land use bumper sticker. i do have bumper stickers for the places i wheel, thereby throwing a little more money to the groups that are maintaining our wheeling lands. if you feel that all land use is focused out west, then start an east focused land use group. simple, eh?
it's 2006. there are no grassroots involvement any more. direct acces to the forest service via the web, and phone. direct acces to land use groups via web and phone. direct acces to elected officials via web and phone. all you need do is call or email anybody involved and you are then directly involved in which ever way you see fit.
if you feel your particular concerns are not being addressed, then become one of those listed above. start a chapter, and recruit like minded people, who love being outdoors, and want to fight to keep it open as much as you do. if you spent half as much time doing positive work as you do rambling incessantly here, then you'd be going in the right direction. disparagement thrown at you has been disparagement thrown back at you. you have done nothing but deride us, and yet we still ask you for the needed info to try to help you, and to help us understand.

'Bumper stickers' don't stop motorcyclists from shutting down our trails forever or being dragged kicking and screaming into this majority community and the 60" width law that they've wanted us to ignore for years...orv leaders who don't have to strap a set on for every question asked...DO.

ummmm, okay, i guess.? that doesn't even really make sense, but i'll try.
if you wish this to be an "our" situation, you MUST give us specific info, what groups are representing, which groups are not, and names of both open and closed trails of which you refer. otherwise, this is all frivilous, and a giant waste of time and woody's server.
if it is help you seek, then give that which is asked. specifics. your name. your land use affiliations, your actual concerns, not these various, inconsequential ramblings.
we would like to help, but you are making it difficult. if you want help, now is the time to stop attempting to refute out of context quotes, and give us the necessary info to help you make the changes you seem to be seeking. and as soon as you give this information, we'll consider YOU to have set.
still justin, still #5501, and still trying to figure this all out.

[woooody]

Cheers to you guys for continuing this

Here's the deal John -- You should form a group of like minded Michigan four wheel drive people. Maybe they all drive Toyotas, maybe they don't. If they do, and you choose to be aligned with TLCA, we can sanction your club.

This will gain you two things -
1 You will have a vote in how TLCA operates.
2 You will have access to TLCA's insurance.

So what you might ask? So, that means that your like minded members would be able to do a little fundraising (say have a trail run)... Let's call it "Save the Nation's Largest Trail system" -- You would be able to Advertise it in Toyota Trails, and you would be able to get insurance for this event at a much reduced cost. Then your group could use those funds as you see fit. And maybe you could tap into the TLCA resources.

Or -- Well, I guess you could continue to yell into the ether, and hope that someone will be impressed that Michigan has the largest trail system.

And really, if Michigan DOES have the largest trail system, what's wrong with segregating it, and letting motorcyclists have their own area? I find it much better if they are in their own system, causing their own damage. Cow Mountain out here in California has a similar set up, with 4 Wheel Drive trails seperate from the Motorcyle / ATV trails. Seems to work really well.

[TUFFTORQ]

welcome back, Ross.

Originally Posted by woooody

Cheers to you guys for continuing this

[woody]

Originally Posted by woooody

Cheers to you guys for continuing this

Here's the deal John -- You should form a group of like minded Michigan four wheel drive people. Maybe they all drive Toyotas, maybe they don't. If they do, and you choose to be aligned with TLCA, we can sanction your club.

not surprisingly, there is already a group of organized 4wd clubs within Michigan....Great Lakes 4wd Association. Their past president was quite active with United 4wd Association and he was based out of Detroit, IIRC...

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by woody

not surprisingly, there is already a group of organized 4wd clubs within Michigan....Great Lakes 4wd Association. Their past president was quite active with United 4wd Association and he was based out of Detroit, IIRC...

I love it how you guys invoke the UFWDA whenever it suits your point of the moment....yet when "I" point out the hugely important problems this same organization faces in regard to simple NATIONWIDE width issues neither you nor the national orv organizations eveidently have the stones to address....the attacks begin.

Gee, woody....do you think the UFWDA issues statements like this http://www.ufwda.org/ (see ALERT! Sept. 1st, 2006 on far left) because they simply didn't have anything else to do that day?
.....or does the UFWDA have to toil away in obscurity and definitely 'outside' our (quote/unquote) 'orv community' on this one...BECAUSE THE MICHIGAN MOTORCYCLE COMMUNITY HAS ALREADY QUICKLY KILLED THE CONCEPT OF 60" TRAILS IN MICHIGAN AS A THREAT TO BOTH "THEIR" TRAILS AND "THEIR" REVENUE SOURCE(S)!

If the Great Lakes 4WD Association is 'my' resource for getting things done in Michigan....why can't we get a word from anybody as to how each and every one of these groups represents us to the powers that be each and every day?

Is that such a difficult concept for you or anybody else on here to understand?

Or would you rather see representative groups sneek around for two years after forming...dodging all questions and requests for even identification of its members....and then "here we are!" materialize in one paragraph (below) wielding a damn "this is the way it will be" sword? www.michigan.gov/documents/May2006Minutes_160784_7.pdf (page 3 under "Michigan Motorized Recreation Council").

For pete's sake, Woody....after it was made plainly clear that these guys were not only unidentifiable but untouchable when it came to rubber-stamping every member of that board....WHY IN THE HE11 DO YOU THINK THAT NOBODY BOTHERED TO SHOW UP AT THE NEXT 3 MONTH MEETING? (one cyclist and one atver right in the middle of the most important juncture in this massive system's history?).

It's about being straight forward and upfront folks....not sneaking around behind everybody's back because there are literally millions of dollars at stake here and that publicly lobbying in this manner to begin with puts into question a lot of legal questions involving just what is allowed and what isn't. (we've got a voted on proposal tomorrow expected to free up even more orv-related millions that will most likely never be debated in public any more than our present ongoing orv community position on fee increases and how they should be spent).

Our kids aren't going to learn a damn thing from operating like this except the realization that legacies are evidently built on operating just outside the reach of the law and that all dissenters should be met with character assasinations both immediate and without prejudice.

You may want to raise your kids to pick up the sword in this manner....I simply won't.

[woody]

http://www.glfwda.org/forums/index.php?showforum=5

you've likely already been banned from their forum....but there is the place....what you do with it is up to you.

[LukeZero]

OK- so now, in addition to the bold, italics, underlining, parentheses and brackets, we have green text.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

For pete's sake, Woody....after it was made plainly clear that these guys were not only unidentifiable but untouchable when it came to rubber-stamping every member of that board....WHY IN THE HE11 DO YOU THINK THAT NOBODY BOTHERED TO SHOW UP AT THE NEXT 3 MONTH MEETING? (one cyclist and one atver right in the middle of the most important juncture in this massive system's history?).



It's about being straight forward and upfront folks.

You may want to raise your kids to pick up the sword in this manner....I simply won't.

Unidentifiable? Pot meet Kettle..

People don't show up sometimes because they have lives as well. It is typically not the full time job to put on a cape and fix global issues. I could easily be wrong with the assessment because I still don;t know exactly where you are talking about because you are being so vague.

I would love for you to be straight and upfront with your issues. What do you as a non TLCA member specifically want them to do for you? Just say what you want and then please, go away.. If people agree with you, it might happen if not, hey, you have said your peace (a lot of pieces at that) and you can go about feeling good about yourself.

Again, What do you want people to do? show up to meetings? Donate to??? Come up with something usefull instead of stating that a couple of "well known" people are not doing what you wantt hem to without actually stating what they should be doing..
I want to see YOU be straight forward and upfront.

I'll raise my kids anyway I see fit, and it is their responsibility to do the same. I hope that the direction you give your kids (if you even have any) is certianly more direct than this diatribe. If not, they are gonna be very confused little children.. Trust me, I read this to my 3 year old thinking he could distill some gleam of info out of it. Nope, no luck there. the movie Tremors 3 was more interesting..


Again, what are your intentions? If you are gonna complain be specific.. Man up amigo or just simply, go away..

[woooody]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

I love it how you guys invoke the UFWDA whenever it suits your point of the moment....yet when "I" point out the hugely important problems this same organization faces in regard to simple NATIONWIDE width issues neither you nor the national orv organizations eveidently have the stones to address....the attacks begin.

How do you draw the conclusion that no one has "the stones" (who's attacking who here?)

Why must you attack woody (aka Brian)? Is he a land use representative?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Gee, woody....do you think the UFWDA issues statements like this http://www.ufwda.org/ (see ALERT! Sept. 1st, 2006 on far left) because they simply didn't have anything else to do that day?
.....or does the UFWDA have to toil away in obscurity and definitely 'outside' our (quote/unquote) 'orv community' on this one...BECAUSE THE MICHIGAN MOTORCYCLE COMMUNITY HAS ALREADY QUICKLY KILLED THE CONCEPT OF 60" TRAILS IN MICHIGAN AS A THREAT TO BOTH "THEIR" TRAILS AND "THEIR" REVENUE SOURCE(S)!

60" trails aren't wide enough either. So now what?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

If the Great Lakes 4WD Association is 'my' resource for getting things done in Michigan....why can't we get a word from anybody as to how each and every one of these groups represents us to the powers that be each and every day?

See my post above -- I (woooody, not woody) suggested to you that you form a club with a group of like minded individuals. Woody (no woooody) suggest that there is a club, that may contain like minded individuals. It's a free country, do what you want. Which is apparently hanging out here beating the dead horse.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Is that such a difficult concept for you or anybody else on here to understand?

Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Or would you rather see representative groups sneek around for two years after forming...dodging all questions and requests for even identification of its members....and then "here we are!" materialize in one paragraph (below) wielding a damn "this is the way it will be" sword? www.michigan.gov/documents/May2006Minutes_160784_7.pdf (page 3 under "Michigan Motorized Recreation Council").

For pete's sake, Woody....after it was made plainly clear that these guys were not only unidentifiable but untouchable when it came to rubber-stamping every member of that board....WHY IN THE HE11 DO YOU THINK THAT NOBODY BOTHERED TO SHOW UP AT THE NEXT 3 MONTH MEETING? (one cyclist and one atver right in the middle of the most important juncture in this massive system's history?).

Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? opps -- guess not

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

It's about being straight forward and upfront folks....not sneaking around behind everybody's back because there are literally millions of dollars at stake here and that publicly lobbying in this manner to begin with puts into question a lot of legal questions involving just what is allowed and what isn't. (we've got a voted on proposal tomorrow expected to free up even more orv-related millions that will most likely never be debated in public any more than our present ongoing orv community position on fee increases and how they should be spent).

Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? sorry... Guess I already asked that. Of course, you've already asked this question over and over. You're just asking the wrong group

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Our kids aren't going to learn a damn thing from operating like this except the realization that legacies are evidently built on operating just outside the reach of the law and that all dissenters should be met with character assasinations both immediate and without prejudice.

Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? <shaking> never mind</shaking>

Here's the thing -- What are YOU teaching YOUR kids? Are you teaching them that they should bug the Algebra teacher when they aren't happy with their Science grade? I mean, following your logic, both teachers are responsible for the education of your kid. So, either one should be able to address you concern, right?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

You may want to raise your kids to pick up the sword in this manner....I simply won't.

Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? -- Oh, that's right, I already asked you that. So have several others.

Really, I'm impressed. You even have text size changes around empty text. Very impressive...

[wardfoto]

ok. so i looked at the link to this orv meeting in lansing michigan. here is what i found, in no particular order.

1. meeting held with officers, members and land use decision makers in attendance.

2. people made note of things being done, none of which appeared to be limiting use in ANY way.

3. trails being worked on, so as to be re-opened for further public use of same. apparently, the groups showing up to work on these projects side by side with the policy makers were motorcycle groups. so, that's why you are pissed. they showed up to do the physical labor, and you expect the decisions to go in your favor because you can blow a lot of hot air? all that gets you is a balloon that floats.
i already suggested you needed to get a bunch of folks together, roll up your sleeves and help out on trail maintenance. if it's working for the m.c. guys, guess what? it'll work for you.

4. during public address time ( three minutes given to those who wished to do so) several points and counterpoints were made. the minutes accurately reflected even the dissenters on the issues they had problems with( what i interpret that to mean: nobody told anybody to shut their mouths. contradictory to what you have been saying.)

5. there were 26 members of user groups in attendance. that's the public, people. you and i. here's the breakdown of those in attendance:

26 total members of the general public, who are land users via motorized vehicles.
7 of whom are atv'ers.
5 that are motorcyclists.
ok now hang on to your hats people.....
10 that are orv users.
too bad wheelers aren't getting represented well at these meetings. oops

and three whose affiliation was not listed.
that's approximately 26% atv, 19% motorcyclist, 38% orv, and 12% i didn't know how to group.
so if there are more orv users in attendance at meetings, but more cyclists in attendance at trail repair and maintenace functions, how do you think they are winning? must be working side by side with policy makers, proving they are responsible users, and never forget what you've always known, it is about who you know. the cyclists are getting to know the right people, and you aren't. jibber jabber means nothing. proving your self useful and making friends does. see what you are doing wrong here yet?

thanks for providing a useful link that now tells us some things that are helpful
motorcyclists in michigan are busting hump and getting what they want. orv users in michigan are trying to filibust, and it isn't getting what they want. time to try some hard work to make that happen. oh, and 50 inch vs. 60 inch? well, neither one would work for me. i drive a 60, and wagons ain't skinny.so i could see how this upsets you, but you guys aren't doing the work. the cyclists are. you need to get together with them, or bust your own hump on similar projects. then you will see more action that works in your favor. you guys need to prepare better, and get out and work for it.
your time here is drawing to a close, since even your own points argue against you, not for you. you are gonna have to do better than that.

oh, and no refuting out of context. refute the whole phrase or paragraph, or let it go. out of context rebuttal means nothing. only that you can only make a point when ignoring all else, and those points don't count.

as far as the kids are concerned, if my child could only speak in the fashion you seem to favor,(vagueries, and nonsense) then he would probably never get anything he wanted either. you must learn to speak more concisely. try it. you might like it, and i know we will appreciate it.

having done this somewhat with this last post, we now know for example, that your own attempts at derision, in fact deride you, not the group you used for this. fair and above board is what i was seeing. you guys get anything different from that?

[TUFFTORQ]

speaking of being banned...

When does this MichiganChapter irrational non-sense cease? Not to ruin the fun here, but can this thread be closed?

[woooody]

I second the motion for closure. No new info being presented. Plus, it will confirm his thoughts of conspiracy theories.

[MichiganChapter?]

[quote=wardfoto;1533786]ok. so i looked at the link to this orv meeting in lansing michigan. here is what i found, in no particular order.

"...1. meeting held with officers, members and land use decision makers in attendance....."

Could you please show us where this was ever in dispute?

"...2. people made note of things being done, none of which appeared to be limiting use in ANY way...."

"People" didn't make "notes" of this meeting; as this is a state DNR penned version of the events which transcribed here absent the official stenographer we lost recently to prove any different.
Again, you claim "limiting use" was the main issue brought up earlier....are you just making up these issues as you go along to somehow prove everything otherwise?

"...3. trails being worked on, so as to be re-opened for further public use of same. apparently, the groups showing up to work on these projects side by side with the policy makers were motorcycle groups. so, that's why you are pissed. they showed up to do the physical labor, and you expect the decisions to go in your favor because you can blow a lot of hot air?...."

Amazing!
You not only have the ability to dream up these us-against-them-we-do-all-the-work scenarios all by yourself...but still have enough energy left over to throw in a verbal attack....to boot!
Let me guess....you're a former motorcyclist, also!!!
You know, if you hone those rudely arrogant attack-like skills just a bit more....you could be on the fast-track for a board position on one of our national orv non-profits! (quick 'skill-set' question for your obvious fast-track trip upwards to the 'bigboy' non-profit: can you force the public to contact their DNR regarding the announcement of orv-sponsored USFS workshops...after claiming that national orv organizations have already tried to "force' same and failed?....hey, you're hired! ).

"...4. during public address time ( three minutes given to those who wished to do so)...."

You are actually given "5" minutes if you request more time beforehand....that is if the chairman and DNR falsely claim to have 'lost' your documented right to be given that extra time....and rudely shout you off the podium (yet I digress...)

".....several points and counterpoints were made. the minutes accurately reflected even the dissenters on the issues they had problems with( what i interpret that to mean: nobody told anybody to shut their mouths. contradictory to what you have been saying.)...."

Nobody is allowed to ask any questions at these meetings and nobody is required to give any answers. You are allowed to speak if you aren't lied to as to your documented request....and that's it....every 3 months.
The above is a factual statement proven year after year and a fact of life that national orv leaders won't discuss with you for a second. It's their 'buddies' shoving this garbage down our throats at these strictly "this is the way it's going to be' meetings....AND THE PUBLIC HAS HAD NO DAMN RIGHT TO Q&A THESE PEOPLE IN A RECORDED PUBLIC SETTING....AND NEVER WILL.

"...5. there were 26 members of user groups in attendance. that's the public, people. you and i. here's the breakdown of those in attendance:

26 total members of the general public, who are land users via motorized vehicles.
7 of whom are atv'ers.
5 that are motorcyclists.
ok now hang on to your hats people.....
10 that are orv users.
too bad wheelers aren't getting represented well at these meetings. oops

and three whose affiliation was not listed.
that's approximately 26% atv, 19% motorcyclist, 38% orv, and 12% i didn't know how to group....."

The meeting I referred to above 3 months AFTER these bozos showed up claiming that they would indeed make all further decisions anonymously (the last meeting we had http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Au...s_169969_7.pdf ) reflects nothing of the intentional mis-direction you try to accomplish above.
Nobody showed up....because nobody figured that they HAD to show up after these idiots flat out implied that thwere was a "new sherrif in town" that would unanimously carry our board each and every time HUGE issues like this surfaced....and WITHOUT any damn 'prolonged discussion' from anybody in attendance (again, the public couldn't question these guys if they wanted to at these meetings....and they know it!).

"....so if there are more orv users in attendance at meetings, but more cyclists in attendance at trail repair and maintenace functions, how do you think they are winning? must be working side by side with policy makers, proving they are responsible users, and never forget what you've always known, it is about who you know. the cyclists are getting to know the right people, and you aren't. jibber jabber means nothing. proving your self useful and making friends does. see what you are doing wrong here yet?..."

You've got it all figured out....haven't you?
No access for the people and no access for any orv group that dares question the people's access.....and the cycle group BECOMES THE 'GATEKEEPER' for all orv-related discussion! (while reserving the right to attack any and all comers with "you're not involved" or "we do the work" while monopolizing any and all funding issues to boot!
And where do you think these millions GO at the largest system out there?....to guys suggesting that we triple percentages for their buddy's training subsidies....with all other program percentages remaining the same? (hey, maybe the fund can go back to these guys making $60 per kid to 'administer' |(NOT TEACH) these training classes! or charging parents to sit in on their kid's sessions!

Ran out of time.
Yeah, close the damn thread after some of you now know how many of these national organizations protect this kind of crap with literally millions on the line presently just waiting to go into "somebody's" pocket.

I choose to sleep at night as opposed to protecting those who damn well don't deserve it. (isn't it strange how THE TRUTH gets more views here than any other thread in the history of this land use forum?...and what does this say about others out there possibly questioning similiar issues in their state?).

[woooody]

Another post -- And still you refuse to answer my questions. Still, you provide no new input.

Please -- Try another group or forum. Please

[woody]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

(isn't it strange how THE TRUTH gets more views here than any other thread in the history of this land use forum?

it says you are a car wreck, and everyone takes a peek at the carnage.

at least you still continue to so pathetically rely on your use of caps, bold, italics, color, and such versus addressing the issue.

with you on their side, it's no wonder there are 4wd land use problems in Michigan...please, please, please, please NEVER move to another state or take up another cause....

please.