Do others speak out on land issues or not?

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did.

Pardon the profrainity but:

Hasn't it become obvious that most of us out west don't know what the f*** and who the f*** you are talking about so save us a buch of grief and tell us so we can understand and possibly get involved like you want or SHUT THE F**K UP

Jesus, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we want to know what you are talking about and are sympathetic, but cannot do anything without specifics. I don't know who you are talking about, I don't know what you are talking about. The only thing I know about Michigan is that the Red Wings suck...so please educate me and everyone else by giving specifics. If not see the phrase in caplital letters above.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Pardon the profrainity but....SHUT THE F**K UP....

Is this what the TLCA is all about....or do certain members enjoy a 'look the other way' free pass just as our nationally-affiliated AMA members continually receive here in Michigan when either bastardizing the "shared trails" concept to the point of closure for the rest of us or frankly treating simple answer seekers in the exact same manner?

Again, guys....what kind of character do we reflect on our kids and just as importantly the people we hope to influence...when this is allowed to be held up as just who we actually are?

My guess is that I'm simply to old and 'old-fashioned' to both patiently explain the concept of transparency in club organizations or how orv leadership should not be 'allowed' to speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to true multi-use trail unity everywhere in this country.....not just where the all-powerful AMA (with fierce cover from our national orv leaders) 'allows' it to happen.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by woooody

So, are you talking about Greg?

Is it impossible fo ryou to just answer the question?

Greg's a grown man. Have you apporached him with your concerns? He should be pretty easy to get ahold of.

http://sharetrails.org/staff.cfm

Again, I'm trying to understand how you want TLCA to help you. Are you a member of TLCA?

From above 'once again'.....:
"...Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did...".

[woooody]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Is this what the TLCA is all about....

ummm... No, not the TLCA. But this is reflective of you, and how you are annoying the people who support the TLCA. "Biscuit" isn't a TLCA board member.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

or do certain members enjoy a 'look the other way' free pass just as our nationally-affiliated AMA members

Our? I have nothing to do with AMA. This is the TLCA, not the AMA

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

continually receive here in Michigan when either bastardizing the "shared trails" concept to the point of closure for the rest of us or frankly treating simple answer seekers in the exact same manner?

I'm a simple answer seeker.

I seek your name. -- You refuse to provide it.

I seek your affiliation. -- You refuse to state if you are a member of TLCA.

I ask you if you've contacted Greg. You refuse to answer.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Again, guys....what kind of character do we reflect on our kids and just as importantly the people we hope to influence...when this is allowed to be held up as just who we actually are?

What kind of character do you reflect? You refuse to provide the details that have been asked of you, over and over.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

My guess is that I'm simply to old and 'old-fashioned' to both patiently explain the concept of transparency in club organizations or how orv leadership should not be 'allowed' to speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to true multi-use trail unity everywhere in this country.....not just where the all-powerful AMA (with fierce cover from our national orv leaders) 'allows' it to happen.

Again. We are NOT the AMA.

You've spent considerable time stating over and over that you have a beef, some beef, with actions occuring in Michigan. We've suggested approcahing other groups. You keep banging away here.

The TLCA supports the Blue Ribbon Coalition. We feel that they are the best group to advocate land use. We donate money to them, as there is strength in numbers, and the represent us better than we can on our own.

Question -- Do you think it is wrong of us to support BRC?

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

From above 'once again'.....:
"...Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did...".

Once again..... you've said nothing.

What orv leaders have said they would call back and didn't....

Maybe I missed it, but what trail system? Saying the largest doesn't really tell me, or does it not have a name?

What's your name.......? <- 10th time.....

[Poser]

troll....

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by woooody

"Biscuit" isn't a TLCA board member.

That is correct, nor have I ever claimed to be. Just a member here.

[woooody]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

That is correct, nor have I ever claimed to be. Just a member here.

I just wanted to differentiate for "John" or "Jim" or whatever his name is...

The BOD members who have replied have bent over backwards trying to get a answer to the questions... You don't know how many times I've had to delete my own typing

Thanks for providing an example of how everyone is feeling!

[Greg Mumm]

I don’t normally find myself in the habit of being goaded into responding to posts of this nature but, because John is misrepresenting the truth, I am making an exception in this case. The efforts and reputations of good people and good organizations are not something I take lightly.

This person’s name is John Stears.

Just so the record is straight, I believe that John here is referring to me in his post when he says “your former leader” (not sure where he got that terminology). I am the one who sent him the “un-apologetic” email. I’ve pasted the full and actual content of the complete email to John below for your perusal. It was sent in response to not a single email but a spamming of inflammatory emails to the BlueRibbon Coalition and to me. And that was after a phone call to him that lasted for well over an hour listening to and trying to understand his concerns. As you can see from its content, the only accuracy to his above statements is that it was in fact intended to be “un-apologetic” and “dismissive”.

John,

With regard to the NOHVCC conference, BRC is also very involved with this effort. I already pointed the Oct. 2 mistake to NOHVCC. The actual deadline date for registration is Oct. 18. They simply have not had the time to get that corrected. The folks at NOHVCC are sincere in what they are doing with these workshops, they are open and free to the entire public and do not fit in your latest little “conspiracy theory”. They simply had a date carried over from the SD workshops that inadvertently didn’t get changed to the 18th in the document announcing the Michigan workshop.

With regard to your “conspiracy theory” and your demands for our actions, BlueRibbon Coalition is not in the habit of publicly chastising good folks who are well representing their OHV constituents. Contrary to your allegations, we do stand up and are standing up for the people we represent and will continue to do so.

I have done a lot of research into your accusations and with the situation in Michigan as a whole. I can find a lot of positive effort on the part of many of the folks you criticize (many of whom are our members). Contrary to that, not only can I not find where you are a member of BlueRibbon Coalition or have been in the last four years (as you have claimed both to me and in internet forums) but I cannot seem to find where you have been involved in any of the positive efforts. I can find however, where you incessantly criticize and at that, in every possible venue you can. All of this has led me to recognize there is a definite lack of credibility to your allegations and I question the motives behind your obstructionism.

Being an armchair critic is not effective John. As you are finding, it makes enemies and generates a loss of credibility. Attempting, at least, to be an armchair advocate would be far more valuable. I encourage you to lead, follow or get out of the way… there is much to be done and you are not helping.

Kindly also stop spamming the emails of the BlueRibbon Coalition.

Sincerely,

Greg Mumm
Executive Director, BlueRibbon Coalition

Please also note (for your information) that in addition to the plethora of emails I and others in the BRC and NOHVCC have received, below are similar inflammatory threads from this person from three other internet forums that I am aware of. I am not sure of his agenda but would certainly welcome you to decide for yourself.

http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...TARTPAGE/1.cfm Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Blackballed” in this thread

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/arc.../t-200688.html Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “The Bottom Line” in this thread


http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forum...highlight=tlca Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Kzoocruiser” in this thread.

Incidentally, for those of you who live in and around Michigan, the conferences around which John builds some of his “conspiracy theorys” are very important to be involved in.

NOVHCC has put together an excellent national workshop series sponsored by the the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC), the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America (SVIA) and Americans for Responsible Recreational Access (ARRA). Coordination of all workshops is by the NOHVCC. Design of the workshop sessions was a collective effort by professional trail consultants, ARRA, MIC, SVIA, American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC), United Four Wheel Drive Associations (UFWDA), and NOHVCC, with input from USFS trail managers.

These workshops have some very good content for the purpose of educating folks on how to get involved in the Travel Management Rule. This first workshop in the state of Michigan is taking place in Michigan’s UP and a second one is currently being scheduled for just after the first of the year.

If you want more information, send me an email and I will get you the details.

Greg

[woooody]

Thank you Greg! I appreciate you taking the time to let us know what is happening.

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

X2 Greg!

[Biscuit]

I'll give Greg's post a x3. Thanks.

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Pardon the profrainity but:

Hasn't it become obvious that most of us out west don't know what the f*** and who the f*** you are talking about so save us a buch of grief and tell us so we can understand and possibly get involved like you want or SHUT THE F**K UP

Jesus, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we want to know what you are talking about and are sympathetic, but cannot do anything without specifics. I don't know who you are talking about, I don't know what you are talking about. The only thing I know about Michigan is that the Red Wings suck...so please educate me and everyone else by giving specifics. If not see the phrase in caplital letters above.

I wouldn't have said it quite so harshly, but it summarizes what I've been trying to say. Getting an understanding of what he (Michigan Chapter?) was trying to say was getting frustrating- I couldn't follow it, [and I have some graduate level training in Philosophy and Logic].

Luke

[wardfoto]

luke, that's your problem, and it's why you couldn't follow along.
your training is in "logic", which was rather notably absent in these discussions!!!
hehehehehe

[TUFFTORQ]

Ouch, I felt that WWF smack down all the way over here in CA. Very well written with a factual thought out approach. Can I get a replay? Two Thumbs Up!

Keep up the great work, BRC!

Originally Posted by Greg Mumm

I don’t normally find myself in the habit of being goaded into responding to posts of this nature but, because John is misrepresenting the truth, I am making an exception in this case. The efforts and reputations of good people and good organizations are not something I take lightly.

This person’s name is John Stears.

Just so the record is straight, I believe that John here is referring to me in his post when he says “your former leader” (not sure where he got that terminology). I am the one who sent him the “un-apologetic” email. I’ve pasted the full and actual content of the complete email to John below for your perusal. It was sent in response to not a single email but a spamming of inflammatory emails to the BlueRibbon Coalition and to me. And that was after a phone call to him that lasted for well over an hour listening to and trying to understand his concerns. As you can see from its content, the only accuracy to his above statements is that it was in fact intended to be “un-apologetic” and “dismissive”.

John,

With regard to the NOHVCC conference, BRC is also very involved with this effort. I already pointed the Oct. 2 mistake to NOHVCC. The actual deadline date for registration is Oct. 18. They simply have not had the time to get that corrected. The folks at NOHVCC are sincere in what they are doing with these workshops, they are open and free to the entire public and do not fit in your latest little “conspiracy theory”. They simply had a date carried over from the SD workshops that inadvertently didn’t get changed to the 18th in the document announcing the Michigan workshop.

With regard to your “conspiracy theory” and your demands for our actions, BlueRibbon Coalition is not in the habit of publicly chastising good folks who are well representing their OHV constituents. Contrary to your allegations, we do stand up and are standing up for the people we represent and will continue to do so.

I have done a lot of research into your accusations and with the situation in Michigan as a whole. I can find a lot of positive effort on the part of many of the folks you criticize (many of whom are our members). Contrary to that, not only can I not find where you are a member of BlueRibbon Coalition or have been in the last four years (as you have claimed both to me and in internet forums) but I cannot seem to find where you have been involved in any of the positive efforts. I can find however, where you incessantly criticize and at that, in every possible venue you can. All of this has led me to recognize there is a definite lack of credibility to your allegations and I question the motives behind your obstructionism.

Being an armchair critic is not effective John. As you are finding, it makes enemies and generates a loss of credibility. Attempting, at least, to be an armchair advocate would be far more valuable. I encourage you to lead, follow or get out of the way… there is much to be done and you are not helping.

Kindly also stop spamming the emails of the BlueRibbon Coalition.

Sincerely,

Greg Mumm
Executive Director, BlueRibbon Coalition

Please also note (for your information) that in addition to the plethora of emails I and others in the BRC and NOHVCC have received, below are similar inflammatory threads from this person from three other internet forums that I am aware of. I am not sure of his agenda but would certainly welcome you to decide for yourself.

http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...TARTPAGE/1.cfm Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Blackballed” in this thread

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/arc.../t-200688.html Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “The Bottom Line” in this thread


http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forum...highlight=tlca Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Kzoocruiser” in this thread.

Incidentally, for those of you who live in and around Michigan, the conferences around which John builds some of his “conspiracy theorys” are very important to be involved in.

NOVHCC has put together an excellent national workshop series sponsored by the the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC), the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America (SVIA) and Americans for Responsible Recreational Access (ARRA). Coordination of all workshops is by the NOHVCC. Design of the workshop sessions was a collective effort by professional trail consultants, ARRA, MIC, SVIA, American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC), United Four Wheel Drive Associations (UFWDA), and NOHVCC, with input from USFS trail managers.

These workshops have some very good content for the purpose of educating folks on how to get involved in the Travel Management Rule. This first workshop in the state of Michigan is taking place in Michigan’s UP and a second one is currently being scheduled for just after the first of the year.

If you want more information, send me an email and I will get you the details.

Greg

[Sean K.]

I think it's pretty obvious why MichiganChapter? couldn't get any answer from anyone......he can't make a point.

I'm not a TLCA member. I'm not a TLC owner (although I am considering one)......just a 4 wheeling enthusiast that has wheeled in OK, CA, NM, CO, UT and lives in AZ......I have NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about in Michigan and if you don't provide that information, very few people here will be able to help you with your problem.

If Greg hadn't been so kind as to fill us in, we STILL wouldn't know WTF you were talking about. You mention having the "stones" to state this or that, yet can't even muster the same to give us your name and exactly what it is you have a problem with. Regardless, it looks like you got your answer from Greg. I hope that solves your problem. Best of luck to you.....you obviously need it.

Sean

[MichiganChapter?]

My very simple and direct questions to "Greg" and others in similar positions on the national level have not been hard to understand. They involve orv leadership and upcoming issues here in Michigan that they are also very familiar with involving very soon literally tens of millions of dollars.(funny how the largest system in this nation somehow 'evades the radar' of those asking us to send money in to protect same).

Would these questions peak YOUR interest?

....why are the only publicly held meetings orv meetings in this state being cancelled for up to 6 months at a time and the minutes published 8 weeks afterwards only after someone like myself demands that they see the light of day?

....if the orv community is 'forced' by (cough) 'the DNR' to have less audiences each year with both our 'leaders' and their own arrogant leadership (than even the part-time snowmobilers are granted each year)....why can't the orv community at least pitch in to get back the official stenographer we lost at the same time? (how many times do you think we've caught these people denying they said anything at these one-way-we-do-the talking public meetings when questioned....and how many times have they refused to answer any of our questions when we are only/finally given the right to speak EVERY 3 MONTHS?).

....why do "I" have to contact both the state DNR and National Forest Service about publicly announcing the same workshops they themselves are attending on their websites....especially after the workshop sponsor rudely informs me that national orv leadership cannot FORCE these same people to do anything?
For pete's sake, people...we all know that national orv leadership seeks to perpetually stick their head in the sand when it comes to the "me-only" vs true multi-use for everybody debate....yet when these arrogant Michigan cyclists announce that you and I will pay for impact studies carving out huge chunks of our forest land for themselves and themselves only....can you now see why I finally had to make the darn phone call to our government employees when nobody else obviously would? (even AFTER being informed of both the exclusionary incorrect date and the lack of public anoouncement in the proper place to begin with?).
And to add insult to injury....NOT A DAMN ONE OF THEM KNEW WHAT THE WORKSHOP WAS TO INVOLVE OR WHAT WAS EVEN EXPECTED OF THEM WHEN I CALLED!

Would somebody please compare this kind of goat rodeo to California's obvious attempt to clearly outline and take the lead on their workshop...along with clearly stating that there would be "Q and A" time provided for all that took the time to come? What does the public deserve in the body of these announcements....some kind of regirgitated and generic "Koombuyah" on togetherness and cooperation for all...or an announcement that your local cycle chapter is seeking to close down a chunk of your national forest and that all interested MULTI-USE users had better darn well be there to give an opinion about it? (believe me, there are a good number of these forest service employees who don't necessarly agree with this pure arrogance either).

Again, we could get into the state's unannounced term extension of these AMA leaders; they're refusal to once again announce upcoming term expirations or get them filled anywhere near on time....and even the current board's refusal to simly publish their contact info like THE MEN on our snowmobile board have been more than willing to do for decades....amongst a host of other take-it-behind-the-scenes crap far to numerous to get into here.

The question is this:
Do you allow people to disparage the character of all comers using the perverted reasoning of protecting 'the community' from 'division'....or do you take a hard long look at those protecting those who have sought to divide this community for literally decades with their "we-ride-yours-and-'ours only'-too"...attitude.

I'm sorry, but you can't play both sides of the fence.
And believe me, what happens here in Michigan with this multi-million dollar/thousands of trail miles funding proposal in the works...will (unfortunately) prove just that.

[woody]

all your bolding, underlining, capitalizing, quoting and italicizing makes for some shitty reading...

no wonder no one pays attention to you....your ability to effectively and clearly communicate is pathetic

[woooody]

Your original question has been answered by Greg Mumm.

Greg is TLCA's Land Use Rep, and he's on the Board of Blue Ribbon Coalition.

Turns out, Greg answered your questions.

Turns out, you aren't a TLCA member.

I'm not sure if you expect more attention because Michigan has "the largest" trail system or why you keep emphasizing that. California has to rank up there somewhere. Not sure how your numbers are determined.

You need to look locally. The TLCA forum isn't the place. Certainly, there are Michigan forums for this?

[woody]

Given your rants and soapbox posts on this and other forums, I almost hate to suggest another place for you to harass...

took 2 seconds to find one tho....4wd specific for Michigan even...

[LukeZero]

John- don't take this the wrong way.... but if ALL of your efforts, through multiple venues are not meeting your expectations.......

and again, don't take this wrong............ is it you?

I'm not being a smartass- the DNR, the BRC, TLCA, ih8mud, etc. are all decent organizations, run by decent people that are all trying to do their best. All are horribly underfunded, only hear criticisms from the constiuents they represent and you come along and if I were them, I wouldn't have time to deal with it.

Again, you obviously feel very strongly about this as evidenced by the strong manner in which you talk about it- but maybe you're a little too forceful for people to know how to deal with you.

Just my $.02. Take it or leave it.