WAS: FJ Cruiser pics, NOW: public land and trail blazing

[EAST TX FJ]

They are closing carnage because of idiots going off the trail and tearing the place up. The trails are there for a reason. they have talked about reopening carnage after a few years and after trying to fix the trails and the eroded land around it. the kick to this is that there will be an entry fee and huge fines if caught off the trail. from what ive heard they will be closing the trail within the next month. my friend is heading there in his 94 f-150 to run it before it closes and hopefully if i have my lift and rock sliders by then ill try to go too. Just a little advice to anyone who want to keep all the trails in Colorado and Wyoming open, stay on the trail.

[TexasBadlands]

Originally Posted by EAST TX FJ

They are closing carnage because of idiots going off the trail and tearing the place up. The trails are there for a reason. they have talked about reopening carnage after a few years and after trying to fix the trails and the eroded land around it. the kick to this is that there will be an entry fee and huge fines if caught off the trail. from what ive heard they will be closing the trail within the next month. my friend is heading there in his 94 f-150 to run it before it closes and hopefully if i have my lift and rock sliders by then ill try to go too. Just a little advice to anyone who want to keep all the trails in Colorado and Wyoming open, stay on the trail.

Yeah...... Stay on the trail. That is how no new trails ever come about. I am pretty tired of people telling us how to use PUBLIC land. Sometimes a trail begs to be blazed. Discretion is the key to travelling where there is currently no trail.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

I am pretty tired of people telling us how to use PUBLIC land. Sometimes a trail begs to be blazed. Discretion is the key to travelling where there is currently no trail.

You cannot be serious about advocating blazing trails where there is no trail just because it is public land? If, in fact, you are serious then that is the most absurd post I have seen in the past 5 years.

You really have no clue do you?

-B-

[kellymoe]

Once a trail closes it is next to impossible to get it open again. There have been several trails in the Southern California area that were closed "temporarily" a few years ago only to be designated as permanently closed now. As to blazing new trails? Don't do it. This is how existing trails end up getting closed. On BLM land in the California desert there are tons of seldom traveled roads that are pretty stinking tough, you just need go searching. Once you find the trail keep it a secret to all but your closest friends.

[saskdiesel]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

You cannot be serious about advocating blazing trails where there is no trail just because it is public land? If, in fact, you are serious then that is the most absurd post I have seen in the past 5 years.

You really have no clue do you?

-B-

I would find it hard to believe that he actually meant that.
If not, then there is still a LOT of educating to do.

[SunFuCru]

Instead of taking away a right, why dont the park services require a nominal fee to use the trails and fine land abusers when they are found? Can't errosion be dealt with? Can't new trails be blazed responsibly? Cant damage be repaired? Shutting down a trail is big government stomping on citizens. Whoever has the stronger lobbyist wins. Really too bad.

[inthewall]

Theres plenty of trails right now. Im not a tree hugger by no means. In the areas I hunt atv riders have trashed the place. You cant hike anywhere without a beaten path by these a h o l e s.
All my good hunting spots are gone. All in the last ten years. Keep on the trail or road. The old timers made just the right amount of roads! If you need to see whats on the other side get off your ass and walk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dawg]

Originally Posted by inthewall

Theres plenty of trails right now. Im not a tree hugger by no means. In the areas I hunt atv riders have trashed the place. You cant hike anywhere without a beaten path by these a h o l e s.
All my good hunting spots are gone. All in the last ten years. Keep on the trail or road. The old timers made just the right amount of roads! If you need to see whats on the other side get off your ass and walk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said......

[Beowulf]

This is a post from another forum concerning trails in the Santa Fe National Forest and the Carson National Forest. Both are major public lands in New Mexico. The OP is a NF employee and a member of our local 4wd club.

"I'm not sure if the Santa Fe is trying to be on a similar timeline to the
Carson, but if they are, the rush is on to define the travel management
plan. Under the Rule, all NF roads will be closed unless designated open.
Now is your chance to have input. Our meetings consisted of draft travel
maps for the hosting district, showing roads currently designated open
according to our database. Data cleanup over the next year may have some
changes to that, but that's what it is now. If you can identify (and
probably make a case for) roads that should be added (or removed) from the
system, they should take that into consideration. The final management plan,
I believe, is supposed to be implemented in '08 or '09. It is also supposed
to be able to be updated annually. Oh yeah, it will also affect dispersed
campsites--you won't be able to drive to dispersed campsites that aren't
designated, either."

These public hearings are being conducted in New Mexico over the next couple of months.

Irresponsible people are creating problems all over the US for those of us that enjoy using the existing trails and trying to keep them open. People with attitudes like TBL will kill the hobby for your kids and perhaps before some of you are my age. Do something about it now or cry in your beer in the future.

-B-

[Cresso]

Originally Posted by EAST TX FJ

They are closing carnage because of idiots going off the trail and tearing the place up. The trails are there for a reason. they have talked about reopening carnage after a few years and after trying to fix the trails and the eroded land around it. the kick to this is that there will be an entry fee and huge fines if caught off the trail. from what ive heard they will be closing the trail within the next month.

Carnage will not be closed until there is an alternate rockcrawling trail in the Left Hand area. That's the word from the Boulder Ranger District. I have my doubts the replacement trail will be anywhere near as entertaining as Carnage, but at least they're not just shutting down the whole place.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by SunFuCru

... fine land abusers when they are found? Can't errosion be dealt with? Cant damage be repaired?

It seems to me that you haven't spent much time in the remote areas of the West. These areas are so remote there hasn't been a FS or BLM employee on these trails in years. Fining an abuser is simply not possible and certainly isn't a deterrent. As for repairing damage & errosion, again these are very remote and difficult to get to areas. Not easy to get a dozer or a backhoe into some of these places and costly to repair the damage done.

Originally Posted by SunFuCru

Can't new trails be blazed responsibly?

Yes, if by "responsibly" you mean with the cooperation of the BLM or FS or whoever controls the land. We have a new BLM area they have recently opened near Socorro, NM that has been designated for OHV use. The BLM is encouraging local clubs, ATV, motorcycle, and 4wd enthusiasts to build trails. We are trying hard to build trails in a logical and controlled manner before the irresponsible "Fawk 'em, I'll blaze my own trail" idiots get in there and start ruining the place.

Originally Posted by SunFuCru

Shutting down a trail is big government stomping on citizens.

While I share this sentiment in general, you have to remember there are 2 sides to every argument. Sometimes shutting down a trail is the only option left to the land managers if the irresponsible users cannot be controlled. The concern about the over-use of the Rubicon trail is an example. People crapping all over the place... trail blazers... drunks... environmental damage... improperly equipped vehicles... fluid spills... All this starts giving the land managers reasons to close the trails.

-B-

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

Yeah...... Stay on the trail. That is how no new trails ever come about. I am pretty tired of people telling us how to use PUBLIC land. Sometimes a trail begs to be blazed. Discretion is the key to travelling where there is currently no trail.

Please stay in Texas. Your attitude is earily similar to Rusty Shackleford (also a Texan) or whatever his name was, who thought he had a right to crap in heavily used woods anywhere he wanted, EVEN THOUGH this issue is being used to close trails all over the West.

Especially in California, but in all the Western states, the pressures to close trails are huge. Idiot attitudes about "blazing" new trails, or more likely, and more destructively, blazing alternative routes on existing trails are a certain way to get ALL of our favorite trails shut down permanently.

Don't take this the wrong way, but grow up and learn to consider the consequences of your actions before you get that bad*ss FJC off the road and off the trail.

[TexasBadlands]

How do you people think the current trails came about? Do you think they just MAGICALLY APPEARED? New trails can be made after serious consideration and debate with local land management personel (That is what I meant by discretion). I was not implying to just go off on a whim and create a new trail by tearing up the countryside.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

I am pretty tired of people telling us how to use PUBLIC land. Sometimes a trail begs to be blazed.

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

New trails can be made after serious consideration and debate with local land management personel

Nice retreat.

-B-

[Michael1]

Many trails in the West were the result of mining and logging operations. They were not just recreationalists blazing their own trails. Many of these trails are 100 years old.

There has been a huge growth in off-roading. There are just too many people now for everyone to decide when and where there should be a new trail as dictacted by their right foot, or a twist to the handle bar grip.

The time has come for off-roaders to start doing their own policing if trails are going to stay open. All it takes is a few yahoos to ruin it for everyone. The rangers can't be everywhere.

Michael

[kellymoe]

[quote=SunFuCru] Can't errosion be dealt with? Can't new trails be blazed responsibly? Cant damage be repaired? quote]

There is a area in So Cal near Gorman that was shut down over 20 years ago due to erosion and tearing up the land. It is visible from the I-5 as you head over the Grapevine. No vehicles have driven on that land in 20 years and yet it still looks like hell. Last Spring I did a new trail that I discovered on Google Earth. It is near Death Valley and from the looks of it it was used to access mines. Along the way we found shoes for burros, broken down horse drawn wagons. The trail was deeply rutted from the wagon wheels in areas. I don't know when or if there had ever been a motorized vehicle on the trail. My point is that after probably 100 years this trail was still visible. What we do has a lasting impact. There are plenty of these old trails out there, especially in Nevada. No need to go blaze brand new trails.

Here is a shot of just one section of the old trail. I am all for opening these old trails up, not making new ones.

[TexasBadlands]

Originally Posted by SunFuCru

Instead of taking away a right, why dont the park services require a nominal fee to use the trails and fine land abusers when they are found? Can't errosion be dealt with? Can't new trails be blazed responsibly? Cant damage be repaired? Shutting down a trail is big government stomping on citizens. Whoever has the stronger lobbyist wins. Really too bad.

No fee required - it is PUBLIC LAND. New trails CAN be blazed responsibly to the chagrin of some earth firsters on here. Errosion is going to happen anyway- it's just misplaced dirt. To shut down a trail is gestapo tactics used by a government that has gone awry.

Yes "V for Vendetta" and "1984" are movies I own and I think our government is out of hand.

[kellymoe]

I think our Govt is out of hand too when it comes to closing roads and limiting access. But what would happen if all of a sudden you could go wherever you wanted, blaze new trails? It would cease to be "just misplaced dirt". Archaeological and historical sites would be destroyed, vegetation destroyed, animal life destroyed etc... the list goes on and on. I am not for closing down more land, in fact I want more trails reopened, like Surprise Canyon in the Panamint Mountains of California and countless other trails that have been closed in the past several years. The good old days of going wherever you want are gone. We are under the microscope and the Govt and the greenies are just waiting for an excuse to shut more trails down. We need to show that we are a mature and responsible user group, not a bunch of ignorant knuckleheads.
I love wheeling and I want to make sure that my son and daughter have the same opportunity I have had and maybe more opportunity if we act responsibly

[Cresso]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

No fee required - it is PUBLIC LAND.

Agreed.

New trails CAN be blazed responsibly to the chagrin of some earth firsters on here.

Creating new trails responsibly (after you backpedaled and claimed "responsibly" means with the BLM's/RD's approval and direction) isn't what concerns some folks here. That has happened many times and continues to happen. It's the irresponsible destruction of land, either from straying off the trail or abusing existing trails. As already mentioned, the volume and capability of users is vastly different than what it was even 15 years ago. We have to be very careful how we treat our trails or we will erode the land to the point where it can't recover on its own.

Errosion is going to happen anyway- it's just misplaced dirt. To shut down a trail is gestapo tactics used by a government that has gone awry.

The level of destruction fourwheelers are capable of far exceeds natural erosion. Sometimes a trail must be shut down because the fourwheelers in that area haven't treated the trail well enough and steps must be taken very quickly. I don't ever like to see trails being shut down, but I can understand when they must be to prevent more damage until the correct measures can be implemented.

Yes "V for Vendetta" and "1984" are movies I own and I think our government is out of hand.

I've read the books and love them as well. The only fault I see on the government side here is that too many trails stay closed once we mess them up. It's a learning process and I can understand growing pains, but we need to figure out a way to coexist, not restrict. If a trail needs to be shut down to save it, shut it down. Once the traffic has stopped, repair the trail and fix it so we don't screw it up again, then reopen it.

my humble opinion, of course...

[EAST TX FJ]

Agreed to everything above except for Mr. Badlands. Next time you go wheelin make a responsible decission to stay on the trail and not tear it up. Also most of the time at the trailhead you might see this little sign that tells you to STAY ON THE TRAIL. Just a little bright idea you might want to follow.

[DBS311]

TXbadlands, do you honestly think the government is actively looking for trails to shut down, that there is some evil man in a room with a map trying to screw all of us over??? I wish you would realize that it is people with attitudes like yours that attract attention from the government and those who would like to shut down trails. If you honestly think the government is out of hand, don't give them a reason to step in.

[kellymoe]

Originally Posted by DBS311

TXbadlands, do you honestly think the government is actively looking for trails to shut down, that there is some evil man in a room with a map trying to screw all of us over??? .

Actually, yes. There may an evil man in room but there is a movement going on right where the govt will close roads unless people come forward and claim them as viable roads. There are public hearings happening for the next few months in various part of California where the Forest Service and BLM will hear from the public on this issue. If your favorite road doesn't make it onto the master list it will be closed permanently. I will try and get the link and post it here so we can go to these meetings with map in hand and point out to the Forest Service which trails need to stay open. Check out the local BLM or Foerest Service website for info.

[TexasBadlands]

Originally Posted by EAST TX FJ

Agreed to everything above except for Mr. Badlands. Next time you go wheelin make a responsible decission to stay on the trail and not tear it up. Also most of the time at the trailhead you might see this little sign that tells you to STAY ON THE TRAIL. Just a little bright idea you might want to follow.

I always stay on designated trails when a trail system is already in place, and I never tear up a trail. I have never exceeded 33" tires - the larger tires tear the $hit out of dirt trails when they are wet. So who is tearing up the trails? How about LC owners with 37" tires etc?

[TexasBadlands]

Originally Posted by DBS311

TXbadlands, do you honestly think the government is actively looking for trails to shut down, that there is some evil man in a room with a map trying to screw all of us over??? I wish you would realize that it is people with attitudes like yours that attract attention from the government and those who would like to shut down trails. If you honestly think the government is out of hand, don't give them a reason to step in.

Yeah I do, and I have seen that kind of action before. Not just with the Off road trails, but in other areas of our lives as well. This country is slowly moving towards a communist state. People I know who immigrated to the United States years ago to get away from communism have also commented to me that the US is turning communist. I say if the BLM gets out of hand closing trails to us, the US citizens, then we need to step up and tell them we will not comply. Eventually we will have a revolution on our hands, and maybe that is just what this country needs - a good government house cleaning and get the government back to where the PEOPLE are in control.