WAS: FJ Cruiser pics, NOW: public land and trail blazing

[TexasBadlands]

Originally Posted by DBS311

If you think this country is turning towards communism, then you really don't understand communism at all. Please, do this country a favor and move to another country that will give you a better life. Surely there is one out there.

Also, explain your reasoning behind the idea that a 37" tire will destroy a trail more than a 33" tire. My footprint is just as large (or small, depending on how you look at it) as a 33x12.50. In fact, a lot of time I don't need to spin my tires to clear an obstacle when compared with smaller tires.

Every time you post TBL, I can only wonder if you have ever really been off-roading. Just look at TiSilver's pics and pretend it is you.

A 37" tire will dig out of the mud deeper than a 33" tire. How many times have I come across a trail that had ruts so deep from other guys with their monster tires digging to china and we with smaller tires straddle around them (creating MORE errosion for your information)???

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

I always stay on designated trails when a trail system is already in place, and I never tear up a trail. I have never exceeded 33" tires - the larger tires tear the $hit out of dirt trails when they are wet. So who is tearing up the trails? How about LC owners with 37" tires etc?

Prove it.... I don't see how a larger tire would do more damage to the trail. Most rigs with large tires have experienced drivers with well equipped vehicles and understand the term, tread lightly.

[Bluto]

Im new to offroading myself but I have enough sense Public Land doesnt mean Im the only one that has use with it (without regard to others). And theres only so much Tax dollars to make "Public" free - I went to a Public University and I still had to pay tuition.

Is this what offroading is all about in your part of the woods?

[FirstToy]

Originally Posted by TisilverFJ

A friend and I finally ran Carnage in Boulder CO. They (Boulder) are going to close this trail soon. I'm glad I had a diff skid and wish my sliders were done. A-trac performed flawless and worked better than having the rear diff locked. Luckily half way up the trail we ran into two other (really nice) guys that have been running that trail for years and gave us alot of good advice on how to get through some tuff sections. After bending my lower control arm and using the body/frame as a pivot point I can't wait till my tires wear out. Then I can go to 35's.

TiSilverFJ, nice pics and a great post. Keep posting pics of your FJC... maybe in a new thread


For factual information on trails and our government, the BLUE RIBBON COALITION has alot of information on it. If you are really interested in putting your money where your mouth is, join the BRC (or get active in local trail maintence & policy).

Tho the topic of trail closure and effects of large tires is very informative, esp. to newbie offroaders, lets keep it civil.

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by fj40charles

Please do not associate this idiot (texasbadlands) with the rest of the folks in Texas. I agree with NONE of his DUMB ASS viewpoints.

Charles-I meant in no way to way to imply all Texans were foolish yahoos like Texasbadlands. I apologize to you and all responsible Texans if you took it that way. I know there are many clubs and individuals there working to keep trails open, and to keep the riff-raff out. I met the whole Texas group in Moab two years ago-nice fellas to a man.

Unfortunately, the fools are everywhere, and all too often associated with off-roading. We should all be working to disprove that stereotype. I'll bet one day texasbadlands will realize that. I hope it isn't too late.

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Charles-I meant in no way to way to imply all Texans were foolish yahoos like Texasbadlands. I apologize to you and all responsible Texans if you took it that way. I know there are many clubs and individuals there working to keep trails open, and to keep the riff-raff out. I met the whole Texas group in Moab two years ago-nice fellas to a man.

Unfortunately, the fools are everywhere, and all too often associated with off-roading. We should all be working to disprove that stereotype. I'll bet one day texasbadlands will realize that. I hope it isn't too late.

No offense taken Andrew.. I know you were not trying to offend all Texans... I wanted to make sure that I distanced myself from texasbadlands. I don't want his comment/opinions to reflect how 99.9999999999% of Texans feel. Some people just have a way of pi$$ing everyone off and make themselves look like a total donkey in the process.

Every state has their share of budweiser drinkin' dumb a$$ red necks that makes all of responsible 4 wheelers look bad.

[nuclearlemon]

first off, even though i've found very few texans that aren't igorant (most are on this forum), you aren't among them, and you should be shot.

second, the boys (like txbadlands) are doing extreme damage that it takes backhoes, massive amounts of manpower, lots of money, and tns of hours in environmental impact studies by various agencies.

third, carnage currently runs through a watershed.

fourth, if you read the lefthand canyon decision, you'll find that a replacement trail is being considered to replace carnage canyon.

go back to the rover world where you belong

[Michael1]

When I go off-road, I'm out there not only for the challenge of off-roading, but for the beauty of the surrounding land. The last thing I want to do is go all the way out there to look at a bunch of land torn up by numb nuts who decided to blaze their own trails. These type of people have no appreciation for nature. They are also the same people who run with little or no engine muffling, so no one else can enjoy the serenity of the back country. I'm glad the FJ TRD Exhaust is not suitable for off-road use due to its outlet right behind the rear tire, because even that is pushing the limits of irresponsibility in the back country. One off-road motorcycle magazine has a saying, "Loud mufflers = closed trails". I'll add this, "Tread heavy = closed trails".

Michael

[woooody]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

A 37" tire will dig the crap out of the mud deeper than a 33" tire. Are you stupid, or just ignorant? How many times have I come across a trail that had ruts so deep from other guys with their monster tires digging to china and we with smaller tires straddle around them (creating MORE errosion for your information)???

This HAS to be the most ignorant, assinine comment yet.

A 37" tire makes a BIGGER footprint. More square inches hitting the ground. So there is actually LESS PSI exerted on the ground, as your narrow 31" tires are supporting the same weight. A 37" tire aired down will FLOAT on the surface better than a 31.

I'd really like you to point to ONE study that shows bigger tires cause more damage. Just one.

[kellymoe]

Originally Posted by nuclearlemon

go back to the rover world where you belong

Hey!!! We have enough yahoos already in the rover world we dont need anymore.
I've been lurking over here trying to build up the nerve to buy a Toyota again. But there is no way in heck I'm getting rid of my Rover, I need a capable daily driver that gets better MPG than my 8-10 I get with my Rover.

[Romer]

Originally Posted by woooody

This HAS to be the most ignorant, assinine comment yet.

With what I have seen from him so far, I'm sure he will top that

[woody]

http://www.treadlightly.org/
http://www.sharetrails.org/
http://www.ufwda.org/

Some worthwhile reading at all three.

And, for the record, any trail damage, regardless of vehicle type, tire size, motorsize, etc, is 100% controlled by the driver and HOW they wheel. To think differently only shows a lack of understanding and a lack of experience.

[woody]

sorry :blush: didn't realize I left it locked

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

A 37" tire will dig the crap out of the mud deeper than a 33" tire. Are you stupid, or just ignorant? How many times have I come across a trail that had ruts so deep from other guys with their monster tires digging to china and we with smaller tires straddle around them (creating MORE errosion for your information)???

TexasBadlands: In the few of months that you've been posting here, you've managed to attack longtime, well respected members, put forward some "ass-backwards" view of trail managment, and demonstrate a general disregard for the collective wisdom accumulated here. As much as I want to welcome all CruiserHeads with open arms, you are making it very difficult. I believe the Cruiser community to be one of the most accepting groups in existence, and in general, I believe we should all stick together, but you really need to take a deep breath or two before posting. You seem to be really enthused with your purchase of an FJ Cruiser. Good for you. It is not the perfect truck, noones truck is perfect. Dogging someone elses truck doesn't make yours look better, it makes you look like you're in third grade.

I have tried for the above post to be fair, factual and not personally attacking. If anyone feels what I've said is unfair, by all means, say so and I'll edit or remove it.

Sincerely, Luke

[Clutchee]

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands

I always stay on designated trails when a trail system is already in place, and I never tear up a trail. I have never exceeded 33" tires - the larger tires tear the $hit out of dirt trails when they are wet. So who is tearing up the trails? How about LC owners with 37" tires etc?

Ok....in another thread you talked about not feeling welcome at a event due to having a FJ Cruiser ....then you mentioned that you have not participated in a TLCA event . In the other thread I mentioned-SHOW UP....you are more than welcome to wheel with other cruiser owners on the same trails & have the opertunity for the same great experience.

Now your talking about how tires size tears up more based on size

Seems to me you make alot of "i think-i feel" statements rather than basing you statements on facts or real life experiences like attending events.

And also "blazing" trails....you are correct...new trails will not be created if someone did not go first but also you need to remember one mans "blazing" is anothers mans distruction-with the right permits or resources backing you new trials could be made every day but the proper channels have to be followed, if not then more trials will be closed.

I have a idea participate in a TLCA event....this is the best way you to see & learn about responsible 4x4 practices.

[ginericLC]

One other thing for all of you to consider. A change in your vocabulary will greatly help the cause. Using the words "Off Road" implies to some environmental and government groups that you are not on a road or a trail which is definitely not a good thing is this day and age. Trail, 4wd Road, and Off Pavement are better descriptors.

[NorCal Cruiser]

Originally Posted by ginericfj80

One other thing for all of you to consider. A change in your vocabulary will greatly help the cause. Using the words "Off Road" implies to some environmental and government groups that you are not on a road or a trail which is definitely not a good thing is this day and age. Trail, 4wd Road, and Off Pavement are better descriptors.

This is too true. In every article or statement from environmental groups that I've read they refer to Off Road Vehicles (ORVs) even though BLM, USFS, and the national park service (NPS) use the term Off Highway Vehicles (OHVs). This is part of the environmental groups' plan to spread their propaganda to the masses who don't know any better. The enviros want the public to think that we are all out there driving where ever we want tearing things up. We need to work to show that this is not how the vast majority of the motorized public acts and that we do not find this to be acceptable behavior.

[pismojim]

TexasBadland's way = Badlands

I've seen natural "badlands" and while an interesting, beautiful and sensitive landscape, I prefer undisturbed natural environments immediately adjacent to narrow OHV trails. TexasBadlands approach to blazing new trails will leave us nothing but "Badlands".

My preference is for OHV trails that provide ACCESS to remote public lands. Trails that are historic corridors through remote wilderness areas. As mentioned above, there are plenty of these historic trails - if they can be kept open and re-opened properly.

Personally, I'm not interested in wheeling in a dirt lot next to the WalMart.

Originally Posted by TexasBadlands on tire size and ruts

we with smaller tires straddle around them (creating MORE errosion for your information)???

Yes you do and the trail becomes wider and wider at every mud pit. We've all seen it and trails have been closed because of it.

And it's not just mud pits, you also create bypasses at any obstacle too tough for your rig (or more likely your driving ability), again widening the trail, creating more unneccesarily disturbed areas subject to erosion. Get a clue.

If you can't stay on the trail - stay home.

[Wayneraintree]

Originally Posted by ginericfj80

One other thing for all of you to consider. A change in your vocabulary will greatly help the cause. Using the words "Off Road" implies to some environmental and government groups that you are not on a road or a trail which is definitely not a good thing is this day and age. Trail, 4wd Road, and Off Pavement are better descriptors.

Not 4wheeling, offroading, etc... but Trail Riding= staying on the trail

We schedule trail rides, go trail riding, lead groups on trails.... all the while preserving the resource by appreciating it and spreading the appreciation through responsible TRAIL RIDING!

[Chef]

People:
I'm disappointed in many of you here. I like the majority of this thread, and dissent and disagreement are part of a healthy democracy...BUT!
I will not tolerate some of the language used here. I will not tolerate some of that attitudes going back and forth here. Find a way to disagree respectfully. I don't want to come back and edit for language, attitude or wahtever. Make me, and you'll get locked out, mmm'kay? This isn't "those other forums" where that attitude will be tolerated, or at least not here in the TLCA section.

Now, having said all that, I'm comment on the content.

If you don't use and treat *all* of the few public and private areas we have left to play in with the utmost of respect, you will find yourselves without a playground. Yes, people with agendas are watching. We've seen proof of that here this last few weeks. Give them cannon fodder thru your actions on the trail, and your words here in a public and highly visible forum, and watch where they will pop back up and get used against all of us. Measure your words and actions. Ask yourself "what can I do in this situation, today, here in this forum, today on the trail, that will result in the most good for everyone.''

If you can answer well to that, you will have had a great day on the trail, and done nothing to demote our sport, and our ability to access it.

Which means you'll be able to have another great day on the trail in the future. To act, think, speak in a manner that reflects less than that will end poorly for everyone. Bank on it.

thanks, alan

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by Chef

"...Yes, people with agendas are watching. We've seen proof of that here this last few weeks. Give them cannon fodder thru your actions on the trail, and your words here in a public and highly visible forum, and watch where they will pop back up and get used against all of us. Measure your words and actions...."

While I understand and appreciate the point that you are trying to make here; are "watch what you say about how 'the community' (itself) has been addressing issues to date" expressions off-limit in these forums also?

I find it very hard to believe that the off-road community will ever change with the times; recruit new and younger members or actually make good on their promise to be involved/educated in other areas of the country (where national leaders themselves admit readily continued ignorance); if folks are not allowed to so much as even question what is going on in their own backyards involving significant orv issues and those presently unashamedly and without apology spiriting them behind closed doors.

We have an ongoing situation here in Michigan that most of these national orv leaders are well aware of involving 'leaders' they just don't seem willing to confront for possibly the same 'hear no evil/see no evil' approach I'm hearing here. They know these people very well and realize that they will talk negatively about us and our machines at any opportunity given if it means closing down areas to themselves and themselves only. This isn't 'conjecture'....it is a fact that has been proven time and time again and includes ecologically responsiblr modern maintenance methods (privitization) held hostage for purely selfish reasons affecting literally thousands of miles of trails on this country's largest trail system.

I love the sport as much as anybody else and have tried to support it with untold hours of my time just like many untold others. Yet when you contact these national organizations and ask them what they have to say about 11 people recently showing up for the only quarterly meeting we have here in Michigan because the people that they deal with have taken every single issue we have here behind some Oz-like curtain....one begins to wonder if the term "free speech" only pertains to those employed in a local or national non-profit.

Sorry to be so winded; yet when your community is 'represented' by some group claiming to have 22,000 members....yet who publicly refuse to reveal even who they are or what they represent for over 2 years now.....you tend to be a little 'cycnical' when it comes to who can say what and why.

Thanks for the space to speak my peace and kick me out of here if you'd like; yet I believe that there's a good deal of housecleaning to be done in our own backyards and that the lack of response one gets from these national leaders when confronted with these types of large-scale messes....begs a much larger question also.

[LukeZero]

Huh?

Its hard for me to follow what you're saying without more specifics.

[MichiganChapter?]

I'll put it this way plain and simple.....we're being asked to watch our mouths concerning what the "antis" might hear....yet God forbid we ever question our own national or local leaders as to why participation at quarterly meetings concerning the single largest trail system in this country draws one cyclist, an atver and a few full-size guys.
Specifics?
How about a "22,000 strong" representative group that refuses to divulge who exactlty sits on their all-powerful council or even incredibly more...just how they are representing all of us?

Again, what I'm saying here is that every national orv group out there preaches the exact opposite of what's happened here in Michigan and has been made aware of the facts MANY TIMES surrounding same.

Instead of coming down on their 'buddies' and shaming them into acting like men instead of arrogant arses...they've chosen to try and slay the characterand reputation of folks like myself who don't see this kind of nonsense promoting any kind of future participation by our youth whatsoever.(what kid wants to be treated like scum when he goes to the state capital to speak his mind.....only to be rudely run out of the meeting before his alloted time is up?).

These guys on the national level are just plain gutless...and they know it.

[k9crazy]

So, it seems that we all want one thing in the end, and that's a place to wheel. While I agree that Public Lands should be for everyone, I don't see a problem with designating those areas for our particular type of recreation. That being said, the number of OHV areas on public lands are ever decreasing. The USFS and other land managment agencies are under huge amounts of pressure to develop and follow their land managment plans. Both from above and from non-governmental organizations (NGOs). It's a tough position they are in because the old saying is true, they can't make all of the people happy all of the time.

So what's the solution here? I believe that we (full size off-pavement, off-road, whatever) can co-exist with a little education and with a little cooperation - on BOTH sides. Or more correctly, on ALL sides. Many of the NGO's don't understand what wheeling is about. Well, I can understand that because as I read this thread, it sounds like WE can't all agree what wheeling is about. I practice and preach treadlightly. I think that people who blaze new trails on public lands are putting the future of my hobby in jeopardy. I want to go into the wilderness and enjoy my time looking at the scenery and putting my truck through some obstacles that are challenging for me. I don't go out there planning on digging holes, tearing up trees, and blazing new trails.

Individual locations are currently under fire and it's the responsibility of our local "leaders" to monitor and comment on all actions that would impact our ability to wheel on public lands. However, many of the comments that the USFS gets are not productive and are certainly not cooperative (like standing up in a public meeting and ranting like a lunatic...I have seen it happen! It's an emotional subject for many of us, but we need to control our actions so we don't look like the yahoos they think we are!). Land managment agencies have processes that they follow to make decisions, including and offical process to designate OHV trail systems. Unless we show them that we want to work with them in that process, help educate them and the NGO's on what we do, why, and how we can help mitigate damage that we might cause, the availability of land is going to continue to dwindle.

I am an environmental consultant. I look at impacts that people have on the environment every day. I work side-by-side with agencies to help them along in their decision making process. And I will tell you that if I were the USFS reading this thread, I would have a huge bias against what we do.

I believe that there are 3 kinds of people, those that follow the system to the letter, those that buck the system completely, and those that use the system to get what they want. We need to stay away from the first 2 and become the latter...working in conjunction with our land management agencies to understand our community, and to understand what they need from us in order to keep our public lands available to us to use.

Public lands should be for people to use, but people should have respect for the land and use it wisely.

Just my longwinded 2 cents.

Oh, and by the way, I have an FJCruiser and I can't tell you how wonderfully I have been received buy the Landcruiser Community. As a result of all the fun I have had, I am now actively involved with land use issues and OHV trail designation in Georgia.

[MichiganChapter?]

[quote=k9crazy;1426342]
"So, it seems that we all want one thing in the end, and that's a place to wheel. While I agree that Public Lands should be for everyone, I don't see a problem with designating those areas for our particular type of recreation. That being said, the number of OHV areas on public lands are ever decreasing. The USFS and other land managment agencies are under huge amounts of pressure to develop and follow their land managment plans. Both from above and from non-governmental organizations (NGOs). It's a tough position they are in because the old saying is true, they can't make all of the people happy all of the time.

If a land use manager in 'my' employ (you know, the govt. employee who hates to be referred to in that manner because it simply turns around the "we're God" attitude sometimes prevalent) believes that he or she is in a 'tough' position on some of these issues....they most certainly should not have applied for that job in the first place. I have never criticized these employees for 'doing their job'....it's the evasive "we don't have to explain ourselves" attitude that has gotten many of them their deserved bad reputation in the first place. (which 'here' is followed up by our own orv leaders acting in the exact same manner).

"....So what's the solution here? I believe that we (full size off-pavement, off-road, whatever) can co-exist with a little education and with a little cooperation - on BOTH sides. Or more correctly, on ALL sides. Many of the NGO's don't understand what wheeling is about...."

Again, the situation is much different here in Michigan.
These guys/gals know very well what in the heck these sports are all about; with some of them having been involved with these programs for decades.
And as far as "education" goes?....there is either a shameless effort to keep the inner workings of these individual's everyday efforts under continual drawn-out wraps or outright attacks on those seeking this same knowledge.
When a land manager refuses for years to even publish the contact info for a hand-picked board that he shoves down the public's throats with even his own meeting summaries....please don't talk to me about "education" on the public's part.

"...Well, I can understand that because as I read this thread, it sounds like WE can't all agree what wheeling is about. I practice and preach treadlightly. I think that people who blaze new trails on public lands are putting the future of my hobby in jeopardy. I want to go into the wilderness and enjoy my time looking at the scenery and putting my truck through some obstacles that are challenging for me. I don't go out there planning on digging holes, tearing up trees, and blazing new trails..."

The main thing "we" can't seem to agree on here in Michigan is who is going to get the lion's share of a multi-million dollar fee increase that spends the least amount of money on actually fixing and maintaining a several thousand mile long trail system to environmentally responsible strandards. These orv clubs don't want the for-profit privitization that would do the job right and effectively take away their funding...with the unacceptable end result also being increased fees out of their pockets to pay for their non-2-wheeled land raping 'brothers' in thecommunity.

"....Individual locations are currently under fire and it's the responsibility of our local "leaders" to monitor and comment on all actions that would impact our ability to wheel on public lands.....'

When your 'leaders' are hiding behind councils that they choose not to reveal and advisory boards that they won't even publish their contact info regarding....these 'leaders' can spin those issues any which way they wish as evidenced by Polaris' recent efforts here in Michigan to simply create a true multi-use system.
Again, our national orv leaders know all about this and who is involved in this cloak and dagger crap...and it has been simply their consensus that the average wheeler out there is but a peon with their "uninformed' opinions or thoughts on true multi-use trails and finally working TOGETHER.

"...However, many of the comments that the USFS gets are not productive and are certainly not cooperative (like standing up in a public meeting and ranting like a lunatic...I have seen it happen! It's an emotional subject for many of us, but we need to control our actions so we don't look like the yahoos they think we are!)..."

I rest my case.
If you're not out there agreeing with every darn thing that a local/national orv leader or land-manager under your employ has tos ay at a quarterly public meeting that they have absolutely no obligation to speak a word to what you request anyways....then you're either a damn trouble maker or a lunatic.
And tell me....I'm supposed to send in my money to groups like the BRC or NOHVCC because they speak more"intelligently" to people who treat us likecrapin thefirst place while our local leaders just sit there and grin?

"...Land managment agencies have processes that they follow to make decisions, including and offical process to designate OHV trail systems. Unless we show them that we want to work with them in that process, help educate them and the NGO's on what we do, why, and how we can help mitigate damage that we might cause, the availability of land is going to continue to dwindle...."

I'm all with you on the mitigation and pay through the nose for our sins part, my friend....yet can you nameone local, regional or national organization out there suggesting that fees be increased to do this or better yet....that their own members send incash directly to this cause instead of their tidy little write-off-everything-we-do non-profits?
For pete's sakes...our last orv leadership sponsored fee proposal here suggested tripling the amount given to trainers administering classes at $60 per student....and no changes in the formula for everyday enforcement, restoration and maintenance!

When somebody from one of these national orv organizations finally has the stones to comment on any of this after learning of same...I'll think about sending them more money for their efforts. Until then, it's no small wonder why so many good people have been turned away over the years from ever participating in critical orv matters in the first place.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by k9crazy

"...I believe that there are 3 kinds of people, those that follow the system to the letter, those that buck the system completely, and those that use the system to get what they want. We need to stay away from the first 2 and become the latter..."

I disagree with that statement for the simple reason that we have orv leaders here in Michigan (backed evidently at the national level) using that same system to 'get what they want' at what has already approached an embarrasing level.

If I am forced to support wasted time trying to secure an out-their-back-door big city riding area for a bunch of slicker suburbanites not giving a damn about a massive system already in dire need of environmentally responsible repair.....then I don't want to become the latter....and never will.

[woooody]

Originally Posted by Chef

People:
I'm disappointed in many of you here. I like the majority of this thread, and dissent and disagreement are part of a healthy democracy...BUT!
I will not tolerate some of the language used here. I will not tolerate some of that attitudes going back and forth here. Find a way to disagree respectfully. I don't want to come back and edit for language, attitude or wahtever. Make me, and you'll get locked out, mmm'kay? This isn't "those other forums" where that attitude will be tolerated, or at least not here in the TLCA section.

Chef -- I think some of the problem here is that this thread started in one spot, and was moved to the TCLA Land Use forum after much of the language was used.