Why does TLCA exist?

[woooody]

I posted this on BODREPS, but I would like to open the discussion to Mud users as well.

In all seriousness -- Why does TLCA exist?

We keep seeing comments about "what does TLCA do for me" or "what can I do for TLCA"... I think we need to revisit why the Association of Land Cruiser specific Clubs (TLCA) was created.

Background -- in 1994 I was working at New United Motors (NUMMI) in Fremont, Ca. A couple of the guys that I worked with hand Land Cruisers, and were looking for information of modifying them. I did a "quick" search (quick being a relative term then), and ran across the Land Cruiser Mailing List (LCML). I wound up subscribing, bought my current FJ40 in 1997, and joined TLCA so that I could run the Rubicon trail at this event called "Rubithon". I didn't join TLCA because I needed to be in a club, but rather, it was a requirement of the event.

For those that read Tony's articles a few years back on the History of TLCA, you know how things have evolved over the years. The reasons for creating the club may not be valid reasons 30 years later. As has been mentioned in other threads, we have other sources of information (mud, pirate) and other means of communicating that simply didn't exist 30 years ago.

For better or worse, our budget and focus has become Trails the magazine, and not so much of the communication and camaraderie that was needed decades ago.

Is there still a need for event insurance by local clubs? If the answer is yes, then we need to push that as one of the benefits.

Is a TLCA specific website a need or benefit to our membership? It can be, but it will take content. And we will need to give our membership, and even non-membership, a reason to visit there. One of the great things about the LCML, or even Mud is that you don't have to be a member to utilize the resources, or contribute to the knowledge base. I fear that by making our website "member only" we will not build the knowledge base fast enough.

In my opinion, we need to provide more to the members than just event insurance, or just Trails. We need to provide that intangible that makes people want to belong.

Currently, even though we offer membership to any Toyota with a low range transfer case, we are still perceived as a Land Cruiser club. We attempted to welcome into the fold the new FJ Cruiser, but I don't think the owner base of FJ Cruisers meshes well with this type of club. As many know, I do own an 07 FJ Cruiser, and have participated in activities on the "blue forum" (fjcruiserforums.com) and can honestly say that the majority of FJC forum people are more interested in add on bling than they are in actually wheeling together. Obviously, there is a small group that like to participate in events, but the FJC didn't raise our membership level quite as high as was originally hoped.

Tacoma owners are another breed, and the mini truck/truggy/buggy group are yet another still. Heck, even within the Land Cruiser community there is a divide between 40s and wagons.

Our goal should either be to provide something to each of these groups, or actually determine what our existing members want/need.

I think in many ways we "stumbled" upon success, but since we didn't have a master plan in front of us, we didn't know how to continue with the success.

I loved our glossy custom bound Trails. I'm still OK with our existing Trails. I don't want to see it go away. I think we should be about more than just Trails, a sticker and a dash plaque.

So, I ask you all, why should TLCA continue to exist? If one of our benefits is event insurance, let's make it even better. I would like to see TLCA take an active role in contacting companies for event donations for all of the events. I think at one point that was done by the MSVP, but I could certainly see that go to another BOD as well. Have that person work with the "big" guys (ARB, Engel, Warn, Marlin, Metal Tech, etc) and see if we can package up 5 or 6 raffle prizes for each event. Tier it so that there must be 50 or 60 or 100 registered rigs to receive the raffle prize.

Each event could still get donations on their own, as well as donations from local mfgs.

Another reason that TLCA should exist is the Club magazine. But, I think we need to have a realistic budget that takes into account the fixed costs (printing), the variable costs (mailing), and the revenue (advertising). I don't think we should ever exceed 50% of our total budget for the magazine.

The other primary reason for TLCA to exist is the knowledge base that we should have available to our members. This has been tried at least once before (birfield.com). We need to make sure that it is easy for people to get in, be there members or not. If a non-member can't get in, or can't contribute, then they won't be able to "know" what the benefit is. If they don't know, then why would they join when they have easier resources (mud).

I want to see TLCA continue, purely for selfish reasons. I love participating in Land Cruiser specific events. I've done Rubithon for 12 years now, attended my 2nd Cruise Moab, have been to McGrew once, and been on several Pacific Mountain Cruiser runs. But I've also been to Surf-n-Turf, which is NOT a TLCA event, yet is attended by numerous TLCA members. The reality is that people will still get together, we just need to make them want to include TLCA as part of it.

Enough rambling. I'd love to hear comments.

Ross Woody
TLCA #7704

[cruzila]

Originally Posted by woooody

Is there still a need for event insurance by local clubs? If the answer is yes, then we need to push that as one of the benefits.

Ross, the event insurance is a great deal. One of the better reasons for TLCA to exist for local chapters.

Originally Posted by woooody

So, I ask you all, why should TLCA continue to exist? If one of our benefits is event insurance, let's make it even better. I would like to see TLCA take an active role in contacting companies for event donations for all of the events. I think at one point that was done by the MSVP, but I could certainly see that go to another BOD as well. Have that person work with the "big" guys (ARB, Engel, Warn, Marlin, Metal Tech, etc) and see if we can package up 5 or 6 raffle prizes for each event. Tier it so that there must be 50 or 60 or 100 registered rigs to receive the raffle prize.

Each event could still get donations on their own, as well as donations from local mfgs.

Ross Woody
TLCA #7704

Also Ross, we started this when I was on the BOD back in 95-96? It was discussed that with so many events, it seemed more likely to have a single point of contact for vendors. That way every cruiser dude doing a raffle would not call Warn or ?? and ask for a winch. TLCA would line up several winches etc. and distribute. I did not know that was not happening anymore?

Scott

[ginericLC]

I wasn't an officer on the TLCA BOD when the raffle duties died but I know why they died. As more and more events started coming to TLCA for insurance it became too much for TLCA to also provide raffle assistance. When there are 12 events wanting their share of the TLCA raffle pot there were bound to be some hurt feelings, when there were only major events it wasn't as tough. And in reality there were some hurt feelings over raffle prizes. I remember one meeting where an event was demanding that TLCA pay them back for a winch they purchased for a raffle because another event got a winch. Another thing that some of the bigger companies do is that they give regionally. So one regional TLCA event might be able to score something like a winch or a lift kit on their own whereas TLCA couldn't get that for all of the events. It just became too much of a process. The other thing that happened that has dramatically changed getting things for raffles was the whole sport of rock crawling being developed. Now not only are clubs asking for handouts for their big events but there are teams begging for freebies for advertising.

I think TLCA is a community of Land Cruiser owners. And as I was describing to someone else today it almost becomes a lifestyle. For some this lifestyle can be a positive experience or change in their life, for others it can become a negative experience. Some people are dedicated to the lifestyle while others only dabble in it briefly. I think when TLCA was formed it was almost like a brotherhood of people who chose to take the path less taken (owning a Toyota instead of a domestic). It wasn't easy owning a Toyota in the early years. It was more work because you couldn't just run down to your local autoparts store and get Land Cruiser parts. I think a sense of camaraderie developed as these owners banded together. Somehow I think there is still a bond and a sense of belonging. And the bond crosses borders, racial groups, religions, and politics. Now that Toyotas have become more popular there isn't such a sense of belonging to something special anymore. Anyone can go buy a Toyota and go to a catalog, the internet, or a local parts place and get parts. There isn't the struggle that binds the association anymore. I do believe that there are folks out there like me that would pay to belong to an association which they never receive a single material benefit from just because it is something they feel inside. This definitely wouldn't be the majority though.

Events are one the major advantages to being a member. I've been sort of critical of the TLCA BOD for not being more protective of insuring that participants are in fact members. I know I've attended TLCA events where people participated officially but were not members. I understand that nobody wants to be an enforcer but if this is to be an advantage of being a member shouldn't it be exclusive to members? I know there are so many different types of events so different rules apply to each one, but I think if an event is going to use TLCA insurance it should be for members. Percentage wise very few members attend an event yearly.

TT is undoubtedly an advantage to being a member. It is an advantage that all members receive. It is the only thing some members receive from their membership. I think it is a great publication. Even 10 years ago it was a premier source of information on repairs and sources for parts. I think the internet has changed how a lot of people perceive the usefulness of TT. Can you get a quick answer in less than 10 minutes? Will you see event coverage the day after the event? Are there exclusive deals on parts that can only be found in TT? None of these things are true anymore. It does provide non-computer reading material and the articles are usually thoroughly researched and have a variety of themes and great photos.

The TLCA BOD screwed the pooch on the website. And I'm definitely not saying I could have done better, nobody had a clear vision of where the internet was going to take Land Cruiser Owners. Like anything, the internet has risk involved for the return. TLCA didn't invest in the website until it was too late. And when it did, they threw crazy money at it that was pissed away in the wind because other sites had already become too dominant. Pirate and Ih8mud became the Cruiser sites to be on. I really doubt that will change much no matter what TLCA does with their site. Mud is the dominant LC site in the US and probably even the world it would be impossible to compete with it. There isn't much about Land Cruisers that you can't do on Mud whether it be tech, chit chat, event coverage, posting photos, etc... TLCA needs a non-glitzy functional site with a working stable storefront for merchandise. I think adding forums is a waste of time and money at this point. Making it more glitzy won't help it as it doesn't increase the content. Content is what brings people back to a forum or website. And there is no way TLCA could do anything to knock Mud off as the best LC website for content. It is just too massive. Anything TLCA does with the website to compete with Mud is a waste of time, effort, and money.

[woody]

TLCA is probably coming close to issuing member #20,000, if it hasn't been already....I spotted member #19662 on the 'MUD Member List...according to the March/April issues of Trails, there are 3555 current members...that's 16107 members 'lost' since the early 90's (I joined in 1992, member #1548).

BTW: I find it VERY impersonal that my membership on the TLCA website is nothing more than my member number....

I joined after buying my FJ40 in 1989 and having zero resources available...living in the sticks of N. Wisconsin left me pretty helpless with mechanical stuff, and I mailed in my application in response to an ad in the back of a magazine. At that time, Trails WAS the source for technical info.

In 1993, I joined the OffRoad Mailing List (ORML) and began my life as an internet junkie (my first online-organized trail ride was in the fall of 1994)....Gary Bjork created the Land Cruiser Mailing List a few years later, and the era of online tech exchange was born for Cruiserheads.

Ross, I've read your post 10 times at least...and have yet to come up with a solid reason for maintaining my membership. Eric kinda hits it tho...it IS a lifestyle. I don't live on a 'coast' where Cruisers are common...a running FJanything in this part of the country is rare, since most have rusted away. I tried a club in this area, and by the time enough members came together to get organized, some were driving 3 hours each way. It wasn't worth the effort, especially when I had other local non-denominational clubs to wheel with.

If there is one thing I would change, it's the Trails policy of not duplicating online content. There are amazing build project started on 'MUD, Pirate, YotaTech and others almost every day, yet because I only peruse a few corners of each site, I miss many of them. I've had forum members PM me with links to their builds, asking what I thot, only to discover it had 10 pages of replies and I hadn't read it once. Unfortunately, saving your build for 'print only' means you need to know all your answers up front....getting the instant feedback from the online communities is important for many folks, since those ideas and encouragements are what keep their projects going. I must say, I enjoy the manila-paper photocopied Trails from the 90's as much as what's printed today...for me, the content makes the publication, not the color and quality paper.

[trainrech]

I agree with Eric on the TLCA website. Our club is in the same position with trying to compete with the club's discussions on mud. We've reached the point that there is a minimal amount of information available as to officers, membership, events, etc., but most of the postings (it is in blog format) have a link taking you back to the mud thread. My personal thought is to capture attention, not be the universal all being of websites.

Chris
Tornado Alley Cruisers Pres.

[MaddBaggins]

When I bought my Cruiser in 94, TLCA was the first group I found and promptly joined. Fast forward, I've attended 2 events, 2006 Glitter Gulch Gambol and 2007 Cruise Moab. GGG was my kind of gathering, small and intimate. Cruise Moab was too large and crazy for me, I probably won't attend that again. So it's come to a point for me where the only benefit I get from TLCA is the magazine.
None of the vendors I have used have ever given me a discount for being a TLCA member, so that is a non-benefit. Large events aren't my cup of tea=non-benefit. My local club has no desire to ever be a chapter of the TLCA so, non-benefit and therefore event insurance is a non-benefit. It's been a couple years since I've even peaked at the TLCA website, non-benefit.

The magazine is it for me now. MUD is where I get my info and Trails is where I like to read stories. I'm sure I will continue to be a member for years to come, but you never know.


Kowboy should be along shortly to tell everyone how to spell PARTICIPATION.

[KOWBOY]

No more lectures from me about TLCA ... I have o'ficially given up.

However ... I will resubmit ONE question that never got answered:

Has anybody ever actually tried to make a claim involving a wheelin' incident with the event insurance that TLCA provides? Not at a rally or swap meet, a REAL wheelin' incident?? Considerin' the nature of the policy, I've always doubted if it would hold up ... thus eliminatin' yet another "benefit" of TLCA.

I'm still a member and prob'ly always will be ... just ain't gotta clue why.

[wngrog]

Most of the events I attend are at Private Parks and we have gone to collecting money for the dinner and the raffle and let the park owners collect the fees to wheel.

If that is the case, there is no need for event insurance from TLCA.

Woody, I understand what you are saying about on-line content. I am sure if it is unique Todd would gladly publish it. He is an amazing editor and you can not imagine the grief he catches after every magazine from all of the crazies. If he posts a story about an FJ, the 4O guys rib him, if he posts a story from me, he catches crap about only publishing his friends stuff. His job sucks but he does it with dignity and professionalism.

In my opinion, Toyota Trails is what 90% of us are paying TLCA dues for.

If TLCA continues to decline to where they cannot foot the bill for Trails then the club will be gone in a matter of months.

How much are we paying the administrator again?

[Green Lantern]

I just want to add my voice to y'all that have posted already.
TLCA is a hobby club. That's all it's ever been, that's all it will ever be.

Toyota Trails is the only benefit to membership. 3000 of our 3400 members validate that statement.
We belong because we want to belong. Folks that change their mind, leave to go on to other things.

Maybe we'll see each other on the road. I'll be in Sparrow, with a canoe, and two very happy dogs.
Happy Trails! N

[Trollhole]

If Woody provided event insurance to his paying members and sent an e-mail once a month to his membership with a list to highlight some post on mud along with a calendar of upcoming events. IMO TLCA membership would fall off the face of the earth.

Maybe TLCA ought to look into forming some sort of union with Woody and have him collect money for membership (a TLCA star on MUD), sell merchandise, provide event insurance to the clubs, and handle all the communication side (website). That way TLCA could do away with the admin and TT and focus on nothing but providing a voluntary role in managing events. Woody could add about $5 dollars to the current silver star donation and probably double the amount of money TLCA has spent on events in the past and hopefully in more than one place. Instead of the silver star it could be called the TLCA donation or something.

Doing so you get rid of about 90% of the TLCA budget and I get to spend half what I normally have to pay for MUD and TLCA combined.

Only problem I see is the end of TT. Which currently might happen anyway. You go from being a non profit to being a for profit. Honestly I have no problem in paying someone to manage a club that provides a service. That or you get Woody to donate the increase in a star back to TLCA and spend that money on the insurance and events only. That way TLCA still is a non profit. Not sure on the legalities of that. By doing so you get rid of the biggest issue surrounding TLCA (money) while still providing a future for TLCA for years to come.


Just ideas I have floating around in my head. Take them with a grain of salt.

[65swb45]

Jeff and Art directed me to this thread earlier today. Thanks guys!

This is surely a question I've asked myself many times since I started wheeling with TLCA back in '86. It's obviously a very different organization than the one I joined. When I joined, my reasons were pretty typical, as I"ve noted of other 'newbs' in the BODreps forum:
1. Learning about places to go wheeling
2. Finding like-minded people to go wheeling with
3. The opportunity to learn trail navigation from those with more experience
4. The opportunity to learn more about working on their trucks from those with more experience.

Once I opened my shop, my perception changed, as I became more and more aware of the 'politics' of TLCA. Eventually I had to walk away. But obviously, I came back. So why did I come back? That is my answer to this thread!

TLCA to me has always been a really cool concept, flawed in it's execution. Kind of like religion: great premises, executed by humans, destined to be faulty. The sense of community that I hoped would flourish has done so, it just so happens that the best manifestation of it so far has been on MUD. I still have hope that TLCA can achieve this sense of community, and I do my part to keep up the hope and the dream. When I chat with you or Nick or Jeff or Butch or Tony or Georg or Ryan or Chris or Dan, I don't think of y'all as my MUD friends or my Pirate friends; I think of you as my TLCA friends! And my sense is that every one of you also shares this dream of what TLCA could be. That's why we'll be the ones still here when TT is gone. Not for the magazine, not for the insurance, not even for the events [though they're a convenient excuse for getting together]

My .02 on the MUD/TLCA relationship. The clubhouse forum is an enormous asset to TLCA, and IMO, unless TLCA.org can move the clubhouse to it's website, it will not achieve it's intended goals. Everyone keeps beating around the bush, avoiding the ultimate questions: will the BOD just go on dragging it's feet forever about asking Woody if TLCA can have the clubhouse forums moved over, and is Woody willing to let it go?

Soooo, since nobody else is asking, I am.

[wngrog]

Originally Posted by 65swb45

Soooo, since nobody else is asking, I am.

I hate to say it, but Woody would be a fool to do that and Woody is no fool.

I think TLCA.ORG should be asking to come to Mud, not the other way around. It is hard to negotiate from a position of weakness. Woody holds all the cards.

[woody]

Originally Posted by 65swb45

My .02 on the MUD/TLCA relationship. The clubhouse forum is an enormous asset to TLCA, and IMO, unless TLCA.org can move the clubhouse to it's website, it will not achieve it's intended goals. Everyone keeps beating around the bush, avoiding the ultimate questions: will the BOD just go on dragging it's feet forever about asking Woody if TLCA can have the clubhouse forums moved over, and is Woody willing to let it go?

I think the answer to that is obvious....how many Clubhouses are even TLCA clubs?

I don't remember the number of times I've offered the various webmasters of TLCA access to the style sheets for this portion of the forum, allowing the look and feel of here to be adapted and integrated further with the TLCA content.

Of course, one of the things that the 'MUD members appreciate is the consistency of the site navigation and look...TLCA has changed webmasters a few times, and the design changes with every one of them. That's very frustrating from a user standpoint. The TLCA portion of the site USED to be consistent with the colors and layout of the TLCA page. The ads served in the TLCA and Clubhouse sections belong to TLCA, and 100% of any $ generated goes to TLCA. I know I research my ad layouts and settings daily, and the time spent has helped a great deal.

I was a bit surprised when TLCA took on their current 'blog' content setup and didn't bother to inquire about integrating even the existing user table from 'MUD...sadly, that explains why my 'profile' on TLCA is nothing more personal than my member number. I've been told a few times by various individuals that TLCA had no interest in a forum and competing...no surprise that is no longer true. (the Blogs failed miserably on 'MUD, no surprise)

--------

I've got a LONG list of things coming for 'MUD. vBulletin is a VERY popular software, and their latest version is close to being released. Of the thousands and thousands of forums that use vBulletin, a very small group has been selected to participate in their private Alpha release phase. IH8MUD has been chosen, and I hope to begin some intensive work on that in late July.

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so....what ARE the intended goals of TLCA?

[Green Lantern]

FWIW...

Mark has a clear understanding of Cruiserhead camaraderie. Unfortunately, like so many others he also places way too much significance on TLCA as a club. IH8MUD is successful because Woody offers consistent access and a dam fine attitude toward everyone. TLCA shoots itself in the foot by offering "exclusive" content and implying only certain people are welcome.

TLCA is a great magazine subscription. The website has the potential to promote the magazine and sell merchandise. TLCA.org might overshadow Pirate4x4.com simply because Pirate has a rotten attitude toward newbies. There is no way that TLCA.org will supplant IH8MUD.com. I work hard to protect and promote MUD because it accurately reflects my love for land cruisers.

BTW, I still support TLCA and Toyota Trails.
Happy Trails! N

[Michael Hanson]

I joined TLCA years ago for the tech. information it provided and still does.I dont think I ever expected it to be any more.I enjoy going to our Lone Star meetings and seeing the guys and gals and their cruisers,ive even owned a few cruisers my self over the years and the magazine has helped alot with articals,contacts and venders.I would like to see the TLCA get more involved in more charity events,natural disaster help and working with the goverment agencies on keeping trails open. 2 cents Mike

[woooody]

Originally Posted by Green Lantern

FWIW...

Mark has a clear understanding of Cruiserhead camaraderie. Unfortunately, like so many others he also places way too much significance on TLCA as a club. IH8MUD is successful because Woody offers consistent access and a dam fine attitude toward everyone. TLCA shoots itself in the foot by offering "exclusive" content and implying only certain people are welcome.

TLCA is a great magazine subscription. The website has the potential to promote the magazine and sell merchandise. TLCA.org might overshadow Pirate4x4.com simply because Pirate has a rotten attitude toward newbies. There is no way that TLCA.org will supplant IH8MUD.com. I work hard to protect and promote MUD because it accurately reflects my love for land cruisers.

BTW, I still support TLCA and Toyota Trails.
Happy Trails! N

In doing the May Minutes the other day, I think I have a better understanding on some of your frustrations Nick. I share them. It kills me that we have the ability to print 1500 more copies of Trails, but are afraid that we will "dilute the value" if we print them and use them as a recruiting tool.

There is still some passion in our current BOD and delegates, and it would be nice to harness and encourage, rather than constantly shooting them down.

Mud is a fascinating entity, and it is where LCML/Birfield/TLCA.org SHOULD have gone, but didn't. In looking back on why TLCA existed, that "resource" aspect now IS ih8mud.com. And short of Woody kicking the bucket, or losing total interest, there is no reason it won't be that way for years to come.

If our TLCA membership is going to hover at the 3000 level, then we just need to deal with that reality, and determine what we can and can't do with regards to our expenses. We may need to look into alternatives to how we process/deal with membership, what Toyota Trails can be, and what TLCA can do for our current clubs/events.

If our membership levels for 2006/2007 were an anomoly, then let's adjust accordingly. If we feel that we can recover the expired members, then let's look at that.

Maybe TLCA needs to do more for our existing events than just provide insurance and an ad in Trails?

[Michael Hanson]

Why dont you ask your membership in the next issue what the like and dislike? 2 cents Mike

[Gumby]

It is very unlikely that Windy City will ever again be a TLCA club. There is simply nothing TLCA offers the club that our members want and a number of the most active members will not join because of things like the 30% rule, 30 year old tech inspection rules, and the politics.

Many of our members are members of TLCA, but not all. We would be the worst kind of exclusionary elitists if we told them they had to join an organization they didn't agree with if they wanted to hang out with us.

WCLC isn't much of a club by some standards, but we enjoy each others company and we get some damn fine wheeling trips and wrenching time together. That seems to be good enough for most of us.

I don't know if it's applicable or helpful, but I'll throw it out there.'Mud has never pushed membership on people. Woody gives it away for free and has thousands of members. The Blackhawks had some of the worst attendance in the NHL when the past owner insisted on pay per view. The new owner put them back on free TV and they had the NHLs best attendance this year. People will pay for a good product, but they have to know it's a good product first. TLCA needs to improve the product and make sure people know about it.

just my probably unwelcome .02. I guess you can't address concerns if nobody says anything.

I've been struggling with my personal membership renewal. I should renew, but I can't get up the motivation to send the check.

[Green Lantern]

Well said Woooody and Gumby!!

Folks who love Toyota 4x4's are INDEPENDENT, ECCENTRIC, and PRAGMATIC. We don't need politics, sales pitches, or "blue sky" visions.

TLCA needs to focus on helping chapters. It's the chapters that attract and keep members. It's the chapters that put on events. It's the chapters that contribute time & money to charities.

Y'all keep on being who you are. We may be a continent apart, but I'm always happy to help you. As we (and the trucks) get older, we need to keep in touch to find parts too! ;-)
Happy Trails! N

Originally Posted by woooody

In doing the May Minutes the other day, I think I have a better understanding on some of your frustrations Nick. I share them. It kills me that we have the ability to print 1500 more copies of Trails, but are afraid that we will "dilute the value" if we print them and use them as a recruiting tool.

There is still some passion in our current BOD and delegates, and it would be nice to harness and encourage, rather than constantly shooting them down.


... We may need to look into alternatives to how we process/deal with membership, what Toyota Trails can be, and what TLCA can do for our current clubs/events.

... Maybe TLCA needs to do more for our existing events than just provide insurance and an ad in Trails?

Originally Posted by Gumby

Many of our members are members of TLCA, but not all. We would be the worst kind of exclusionary elitists if we told them they had to join an organization they didn't agree with if they wanted to hang out with us.

WCLC isn't much of a club by some standards, but we enjoy each others company and we get some damn fine wheeling trips and wrenching time together. That seems to be good enough for most of us.

[GLTHFJ60]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Maybe TLCA ought to look into forming some sort of union with Woody and have him collect money for membership (a TLCA star on MUD), sell merchandise, provide event insurance to the clubs, and handle all the communication side (website).....

Doing so you get rid of about 90% of the TLCA budget and I get to spend half what I normally have to pay for MUD and TLCA combined.

Originally Posted by 65swb45

My .02 on the MUD/TLCA relationship. The clubhouse forum is an enormous asset to TLCA, and IMO, unless TLCA.org can move the clubhouse to it's website, it will not achieve it's intended goals. Everyone keeps beating around the bush, avoiding the ultimate questions: will the BOD just go on dragging it's feet forever about asking Woody if TLCA can have the clubhouse forums moved over, and is Woody willing to let it go?

Originally Posted by wngrog

I think TLCA.ORG should be asking to come to Mud, not the other way around. It is hard to negotiate from a position of weakness. Woody holds all the cards.

Originally Posted by woody

so....what ARE the intended goals of TLCA?

Originally Posted by woooody

Maybe TLCA needs to do more for our existing events than just provide insurance and an ad in Trails?

Originally Posted by Green Lantern

Folks who love Toyota 4x4's are INDEPENDENT, ECCENTRIC, and PRAGMATIC. We don't need politics, sales pitches, or "blue sky" visions.

When I joined Mud back in 05, I had practically no mechanical knowledge and an old rusty FJ60 that I wanted to get back on the road. I remember googling "Toyota Land Cruiser" and Mud was one of the first search results as was TLCA, but TLCA didn't provide what I needed, which was tech knowledge. Therefore I went to Mud and read everything I could find to learn more and more about our trucks. Without Mud, I certainly wouldn't be a member of TLCA, or possibly even a LC enthusiast. I was never a member of the LCML or ORML, or the 3FE boards or anything. I joined TLCA because it was the way for me to get Toyota Trails, and that's about it. I stopped my Car & Driver subscription for that magazine, and that's how I saw it, a magazine subscription.

What services does TLCA provide us that Woody doesn't with IH8MUD?
What does the TLCA provide Woody with for his advertisement revenue and clubhouse forum?

I agree with what has been said before. TLCA should condense their website and make it a mission statement, also stating that the home for Land Cruisers is IH8MUD.com. They should keep TT the way it is, but also include stories taken from posts on the forum. To generate stories, go to all the ROTW / ROTM threads and find users who are willing to do write ups about their trucks, providing tips and tricks for similar truck owners. Go to the clubhouses and have presidents write up more stories for events they put on. Integrate the TLCA fee into the Silver Star fee ( amazing idea ) so everyone only has to do one transaction, one place to become a member of all things Cruiser.

It seems that TLCA hasn't scaled up with the size of it's "customer" base. One of the ideas I had while reading this thread was for the TLCA to provide discounts for it's members to vendors that support IH8MUD instead of finding raffle items for clubs. Maybe give each club an allowance to put on one TLCA sanctioned event a season, like Coal Miner Cruiser Classic or Fall Gathering, or any other event. Those allowances could possibly be used by a club to purchase a big ticket item that they can raffle off with tickets purchased for a couple of bucks a piece.

How do we become more involved with TLCA?
How do we help the TLCA grow?

There are plenty of things we can do to help our local clubs and that's so because it's much easier to contact them because they're typically closer to home. My biggest concern, as many of the people here it seems, is as follows:

What can the TLCA do for me that IH8MUD does not?

[wngrog]

Just got my Toyota Trails. Todd does a fantastic job. Maybe we should look into making sure he gets paid well and the magazine gets fully funded and scale back on some of the other paid positions. I have always considered is crazy that this club has salaried positions other than magazine editor.

[Cruiserdrew]

When I think back why I joined the TLCA, it was do the Rubicon with the TLCA at Rubithon. My reason for remaining a member is still basically the same-to go to Rubithon where membership is a requirement.

So maybe that's the secret for the TLCA. Put on EVENTS that the membership will want to attend. Then cover the events in trails. Use the TLCA website to push the events. Then people would have a tangible reason to join the TLCA. The events might even generate net income that the TLCA could use for other purposes-like keeping dues at some trivial low level to encourage membership. I could even see a TLCA line up with events spaced throughout the calender and people trying to attend them all. People want to get together, camp and chat about Land Cruisers, even if there isn't that much "wheeling". Just look at the success of Surf and Turf.

Unfortunately there isn't much else left for the TLCA. The true tech resource has been taken over by IH8MUD, and the travel and events coverage is being eclipsed by Toyota 4WD Owner, and to some degree, Overland Journal. Some of the best Land Cruiser travel coverage anywhere, is right here on IH8MUD when forum members write up their adventures complete with high quality photos.

As things stand now in the internet age, a magazine, no matter how well done, is just not unique enough to keep the organization alive. I like reading Trails, but there is 10000 times the content on IH8MUD, all completely searchable without thumbing through 10 years worth of magazines. I have found the TLCA wedsite to be semi-unfriendly, and never go there.

Or else sell the TLCA to Woody and let him run with it.

[Bodean]

Or else sell the TLCA to Woody and let him run with it.[/QUOTE]

Now there's an idea!

Later,

[Deny]

Originally Posted by GLTHFJ60

Integrate the TLCA fee into the Silver Star fee ( amazing idea ) so everyone only has to do one transaction, one place to become a member of all things Cruiser.

I like this, and was going to post this idea just now because I recently got an email from woody saying my star was about to expire. We all spend so much time on mud, it would be so much easier to pay for both the star and TLCA at the same time, less thinking for busy people. I assume a lot of the lapsed TLCA members just forget and just never bother to get around to renewing.
Cheers,
Deny

[SaharaCruiserhead]

We, the German LandCruiser-Club have thought about participating the TLCA. But we decided to dont do it, because of the bylaws and the costs. It would be nice to be in the TLCA, but there was no benefit for our club.
Here in Germany we have the same discussion and the same answers.
to be in a Club ist a thing of how you think.
Cameraderie is the great effort and the reason for joinig a club.
the german LandCruiser-Club is a notionwied Club and we have no chapters, so it held the membership fees down and let the cost also down. negativ is, that only a few people do the work. Somtimes it is har, becaus you ar fighting against Windmills. Tho Internetcommunitys are a strong competitor, but when we hav our own activitis, we are all proud, what we can do and what is possible for 20 Euros a Year.
Only my 2 cents
Tom

[cruiser88]

I would be lost without mud and furthermore I think it would be sucide for the TLCA to be not a part of mud.

My father was a member of the TLCA back in the day and I will continue. To me being a member is a status,as to my late father.

[Rzeppa]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

When I think back why I joined the TLCA, it was do the Rubicon with the TLCA at Rubithon. My reason for remaining a member is still basically the same-to go to Rubithon where membership is a requirement.

So maybe that's the secret for the TLCA.

Hi Drew, thanks for being a TLCA member!

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Put on EVENTS that the membership will want to attend.

We don't have events that people want to attend? If so, then what events should we do that we aren't already?

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Then cover the events in trails.

Which issue of Toyota Trails hasn't been covering events?

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Use the TLCA website to push the events.

We don't have enough event coverage on the web site?

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Then people would have a tangible reason to join the TLCA.

People join TLCA for a lot of tangible reasons other than events.

Did you know that 3/4 of TLCA membership are not members of chapters?

Did you know that 3/4 of TLCA members do not participate in events, and most of those never will?

Did you know that some people join TLCA for their discount on parts from their participating Toyota Dealers?

Did you know that a large fraction of TLCA members join because they really like Toyota Trails, but will never wheel their Toyota 4x4?

In the big picture, events are very important, but they are not the most important thing for the majority of TLCA members. Can we change that? Of course.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

The events might even generate net income that the TLCA could use for other purposes-like keeping dues at some trivial low level to encourage membership.

In the real world, event income for TLCA has historically a very small fraction of TLCA revenue. Let us use Cruise Moab as an example. I have been on the committee for many years, and we are hugely successful from both a participant experience standpoint (most important in my view) and from a revenue standpoint. Cruise Moab typically has around a $30k budget each year. Out of that, we might clear $5-10k. TLCA gets 10%. That's $500-$1000 to TLCA. The rest gets donated to land use, and some is reinvested in the next year's event.

Best case, TLCA might have 6-10 events per year. Most events aren't as finacially successful as Cruise Moab, but let's play with numbers. If we had 10 events that netted $1000 to TLCA, that's $10,000 out of $250,000 budget. Nothing to sneeze at, but still only a small fraction of our revenue.

That's the math.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I could even see a TLCA line up with events spaced throughout the calender and people trying to attend them all. People want to get together, camp and chat about Land Cruisers, even if there isn't that much "wheeling". Just look at the success of Surf and Turf.

Jim's done a hell of a job, and has always been a huge TLCA supporter. But look above and do the math.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Unfortunately there isn't much else left for the TLCA.

I can not disagree with you more on this point.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

The true tech resource has been taken over by IH8MUD

One can have tech questions answered by web wheelers and armchair amateurs with no screening or professional qualifications, or they can ask the pros at TLCA. On the free web, you might get the right answer, or you might get a completely wrong answer.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

and the travel and events coverage is being eclipsed by Toyota 4WD Owner

T4WDO is for a different demographic. The Peterson's type kiddie crowd. You want a bunch of fluff and hype, if that's your cup of tea, have at it. TLCA has always been for a more savvy audience.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

and to some degree, Overland Journal.

No doubt, OJ is a nice non-Toyota specific magazine, and appeals to yet another segment of our demographic.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Some of the best Land Cruiser travel coverage anywhere, is right here on IH8MUD when forum members write up their adventures complete with high quality photos.

No doubt, Woody has created a nice community here and he has always been a huge TLCA supporter. At TLCA, we are not interested in competing, but we exist side by side with IH8mud and help each other out. Drew, I don't know if you were a Land Cruiser enthusiast and online back in the 1990s when when Woody was a frequent contributor to the Land Cruiser Mailing List and forums didn't exist yet. That was the internet age, and the archives were easily searchable...

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

As things stand now in the internet age, a magazine, no matter how well done, is just not unique enough to keep the organization alive.

As I mentioned above, we have a diverse membership in TLCA. The majority of TLCA members agree that our dead-tree publication, Toyota Trails, is enough to keep them. For those that don't, we have been offering member's-only content online, as well as the entire publication online.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I like reading Trails, but there is 10000 times the content on IH8MUD, all completely searchable without thumbing through 10 years worth of magazines. I have found the TLCA wedsite to be semi-unfriendly, and never go there.

Web sites are quite dynamic. When was the last time you went there? You might find a lot of changes we have implemented over the last couple months.

Thanks for being a TLCA member, and happy cruisin!

[Cruiserdrew]

Jeff, it's my understanding that most events are put on by chapters, not the TLCA. If 18000 people have joined the TLCA and 3000 remain, something is wrong. I like the idea of the TLCA and anticipate being a member for as long as I own Land Cruisers, but I can see where others say they get little out of it. Trails is a great mag, but unfortunately it only gets mailed to 3000 members.

You asked what events--The TLCA will have to be entrpeneurial here and establish a new TLCA event or two or three. How about one in Colorado? Nevada? Texas? Canada? I hear some TLCA guys live each of those places. Rubithon can be the model, but you need something special that others want to attend from a long way away. Moab is a great event, and another model of how to run an event, but it's a chapter event, not a TLCA event, and in fact could run just fine if the TLCA did not exist. The whole point about events, is that participation is valuable and will drive interest which will drive membership. The Jeep Jamboree can put on an event and have 1500 people show up. Easter Jeep Safari has 10,000 people show up. This increases the appeal/pride/desire to belong to a Jeep organization even for those who would never venture with their Jeep off the pavement. I don't know if that's a good parallel or not, but it's worth thinking about.

I think WE somehow missed a golden opportunity in the form of the FJCruiser craze of the last few years. It's my feeling that a lot of those guys joined and then dropped when the initial enthusiasm wore off, or they didn't feel welcome in the old guard Cruiser network or what ever. I look at Rubithon as a marker. There were dozens of FJCruisers the last few years and this year I saw 2. Not that I have any solutions here, but it would have been nice to include the FJC guys in the "culture". Kind of like the way that wagons at first were looked at with suspicion by the old guard in FJ40s, and now make up the bulk of trucks seen at events like Cruise Moab.

So it gets back to the question...What is the purpose of the TLCA? Is it to publish a magazine? I hope it's more than that, but when long term supporters are asking the question, it is reasonable to think there may be an issue.

BTW-I was on the Land Cruiser mailing list from roughly 1999-2003. I'm still on the 80s list now, though much of the life has gone out it as well.

[GLTHFJ60]

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

We don't have enough event coverage on the web site?

Under the events menu, you only have one TLCA event listed, the Rubithon, so I say no. Why aren't all TLCA sanctioned events listed?

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

People join TLCA for a lot of tangible reasons other than events.

Did you know that 3/4 of TLCA membership are not members of chapters?

Did you know that 3/4 of TLCA members do not participate in events, and most of those never will?

Did you know that some people join TLCA for their discount on parts from their participating Toyota Dealers?

Did you know that a large fraction of TLCA members join because they really like Toyota Trails, but will never wheel their Toyota 4x4?

That's good that most TLCA members are not off roaders. However, if that is true, then why aren't more off roaders TLCA members? There are 40,000 something users on this forum, I'd venture to say 1/2 of which are active Toyota enthusiasts. How can we tap that populous? It seems to me that more off roaders would want to be members to reap the benefits.

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

In the real world, event income for TLCA has historically a very small fraction of TLCA revenue. Let us use Cruise Moab as an example. I have been on the committee for many years, and we are hugely successful from both a participant experience standpoint (most important in my view) and from a revenue standpoint. Cruise Moab typically has around a $30k budget each year. Out of that, we might clear $5-10k. TLCA gets 10%. That's $500-$1000 to TLCA. The rest gets donated to land use, and some is reinvested in the next year's event.

Best case, TLCA might have 6-10 events per year. Most events aren't as finacially successful as Cruise Moab, but let's play with numbers. If we had 10 events that netted $1000 to TLCA, that's $10,000 out of $250,000 budget. Nothing to sneeze at, but still only a small fraction of our revenue.

That's the math.

3500 ish members X $30 a year = ~$105k income from dues, plus a max of $10k from events. Where does the other 135k come from? Advertising? That's a lot of dough to get from advertising.

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

One can have tech questions answered by web wheelers and armchair amateurs with no screening or professional qualifications, or they can ask the pros at TLCA. On the free web, you might get the right answer, or you might get a completely wrong answer.

Arguable, but ok. There are a lot of web wheelers out there, but if you listen to the right people and use the FSM, you can learn everything accurately, top to bottom about your rig.

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

No doubt, Woody has created a nice community here and he has always been a huge TLCA supporter. At TLCA, we are not interested in competing, but we exist side by side with IH8mud and help each other out. Drew, I don't know if you were a Land Cruiser enthusiast and online back in the 1990s when when Woody was a frequent contributor to the Land Cruiser Mailing List and forums didn't exist yet. That was the internet age, and the archives were easily searchable...

I don't think drew meant that TLCA should compete with MUD. If that happened, I believe MUD would win. I mean we're having a discussion about TLCA on MUD because this is a more open venue to have it.

TLCA and MUD should join forces and help each other grow. I'm sure the LMCL was excellent, but for people of my age group ( 18-25 ) we were too young for that and MUD was likely our entrance into the full blown cruiser addiction. I believe that TLCA needs to figure out a way to get people from that demographic to sign up and stay signed up.

The issue of waning membership is not the responsibility of the TLCA administration to fix, it's our responsibility, the TLCA members, to get more people to join. What the TLCA should provide is a venue where members and the administration can get together to come up with a plan of attack. We should have a 2 year recruitment campaign with a set goal of members by the end. That would drum up enthusiasm I think.

[Trollhole]

Had another crazy idea pop into my head over the past few weeks. Originally I was going to look into just the SE clubs doing this but it could work for all of TLCA.

How about TLCA take up handling local club membership, finances, media and web (to a certain extent). This would really give the clubs a reason to be part of TLCA. You would have to cut the TT budget though. That or actually start selling it in magazine racks along side the other Toyota magazines. I'd like for us to at least do one trial run of about 10000 magazines and find a distributor who would take them and push them out to the public markets and see what happened. Heck even if you just did it at airports I'd bet you would get some people wanting more. This could raise more money for TT and get it back on track. We are not talking about a ton of money either. Don't know how TT is being printed now (sheet fed or Web) but once the plates are made and the switch is turned on your cost per magazine start going down. To run an extra 5-10k for TT couldn't be more than 1-2k if that. That being said you will have to look at TT as being a magazine and source of income, not the entire lively hood of the organization. People that want TT should understand they are buying a subscription not a membership. TLCA membership can be a whole different charge and something that pays for the back end.

And speaking of back end. Why not use this new back end to provide some assistance to the clubs? Let TLCA handle the legal side of the clubs with the clubs providing their own direction. Get someone who can file the non profit filings for the clubs and get them set up so if something happens they can feel like they have a foot to stand on. Provide a central bank per say for the clubs. Have an accountant be responsible for setting up the bank accounts of the club and responsible for providing new bank cards to the officers. Have one central printer, t-shirt, stickers, and other media outlets. Find someone who is willing to help with design. Imagine all the business we could give one business if we all sent our work to them. Imagine all the money the clubs might save in pooling our resources. Then get TLCA to pay for web hosting that could include all the clubs. That's another fee all the clubs are paying on our own and it could be a lot, I mean a lot, to pool them all under one hosting company and one package. Pay someone or have volunteers to set the sites up. Pretty sure everyone could keep the same format as they have now.

Problem I see currently is TLCA is not bringing the clubs together. A magazine is never gonna do it. The services offered will. If 2700 people are paying for TLCA memberships but are not local club members, nor participate other than reading TT. Then in my eyes they are not a member they are a subscriber.