T4WDO Magazine?

[Josie'sLandCruiser]

Hi All:

Was wondering what is up between Toyota Trails and Toyota 4wd Owners magazine.

I don't remember ever seeing an ad for the later in the former, nor an ad for TLCA in the later publication.

Why? These seem to complement each other! TLCA is looking for new members in the general Toyota 4wd crowd, while Toyota 4wd Owner is looking for more subscribers.

It seems to me that the Trails could trade a full-page ad for the same in the other publication and it would be a win/win for everyone involved.

Is there something I am not aware of?

Regards,

Alan

[66fj40x2]

Some members of the TLCA BOD see this (and at least one other) magazine as a "competitor" to Trails. I personally agree that TLCA could benefit from from advertising in T4WDO..... more so then some others they do this with anyway.

[Josie'sLandCruiser]

Hi All,

"66FJ40X2," thanks for the reply - I sorta assumed as much . . . . .

To consider Toyota 4WD Owner magazine as a competitor to the Toyota Trails is rather silly. I don't think I've ever seen the Trails on a magazine rack in a store!

Content-wise, the two publications cross a little bit, but mainly the Trails has more "earthy" (my wording) stuff in it, while the Owner magazine is, well, commercial in its outlook.

Any of you TLCA BOD delegates watching this thread? Care to voice your opinions?

Regards,

Alan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by 66fj40x2

Some members of the TLCA BOD see this (and at least one other) magazine as a "competitor" to Trails. I personally agree that TLCA could benefit from from advertising in T4WDO..... more so then some others they do this with anyway.

[woooody]

I think that Dave (the publisher of T4wdo) rubbed many people the wrong way when he started his publication. He was very competitive, and tried to position himself against Trails. He attended several TLCA events, but didn't let the organizers know who he was, or what he was doing. He claimed exclusivity to info that was flat out wrong (specifically the first FJC run on Rubicon, which was attended by TLCA's President Alan).

So, to me, it's not surprising that there isn't a mutual swap. Dave's presented his publication as superior to Trails. The reality is much different.

[TRT2]

I view it as a symbiotic type relationship...

Dave covers TLCA events which specialize in Toyota, and TLCA gets good press from the coverage in a marketed magazine.

but they really are two different formats. One is a commercial mag, the other is a club publication.

[4WD Toyota Owner Magazine]

Originally Posted by woooody

I think that Dave (the publisher of T4wdo) rubbed many people the wrong way when he started his publication. He was very competitive, and tried to position himself against Trails. He attended several TLCA events, but didn't let the organizers know who he was, or what he was doing. He claimed exclusivity to info that was flat out wrong (specifically the first FJC run on Rubicon, which was attended by TLCA's President Alan).

So, to me, it's not surprising that there isn't a mutual swap. Dave's presented his publication as superior to Trails. The reality is much different.

Ross, I have to respectfully disagree here. I have no idea what you mean when you say I tried to "position myself against Trails." You correctly note that I attended several TLCA events and that is key: is that the sign of someone who is "positioned against" the TLCA? Of course not. 4WD Toyota Owner magazine has devoted dozens of pages and scores of photos that lets people from outside the TLCA base learn about the association and its events. As a member of the TLCA, I covered TLCA events starting all the way back with our Premiere issue (the Rubithon, which I sent an editor on). I don't disparage Trails and in fact if you ask vendors or random people I talk it up! I have raved in print and in response to email queries about the folks at Rising Sun/Cruise Moab. GSMTR. Rubithon. "Ya gotta join TLCA if you want to go," I tell people.

Do you subscribe to or are familiar with 4WD Toyota Owner? Anyone who reads it will know TLCA events are published in issue after issue after issue.

On your point about exclusivity, unfortunately but respectfully you are wrong. 4WD Toyota Owner absolutely did have an exclusive in that we had Toyota test driver Joe Bacal write us a 100% exclusive account of his drive across the Rubicon in the then-new FJ Cruiser with Bill Burke spotting. No one else had a story written by the actual factory test driver except us. We never claimed to have been in the truck or wrote that we were there--it was from Joe all the way.

Finally, the thing about claiming to being superior to Trails...Huh? Where? When? We are two totally different beasts. Trails is probably one of the best club newsletters in the form of a magazine out there, on par with the high-dollar Porsche club newsletter mags. Key here: it's a club publication. 4WD Toyota Owner is a independent commercial magazine made for a newstand audience and subscribers. There's nothing superior about either mag, we are different entities, with different looks, audience, and different purposes. Also, soliciting ads from the same vendors is NOT the work of an enemy, either.

FACT: 4WD Toyota Owner magazine has put the TLCA name in front of many, many thousands of people in a very positive light. I resent being depicted as somehow hurting the TLCA.

Relating to Josie'sLandCruisers original post, I think it's clearly a good business idea! As TRT2 said, it is symbiotic.

By the way, I'll be at Cruise Moab, as usual. Driving my FZJ80 1100 miles from Washington to wheel and cover the event for 4WD Toyota Owner. I'd be happy to meet you and chat then. You'll be there too? Ben will be at the Calico Cleanup which we are helping sponsor. If you go there, look for a tall guy with tattoos driving a blue 1979 FJ40 on 37" PitBulls and say hi.

[woooody]

First, let me say that I spent quite some time pondering whether to reply or not. I see little chance of anything positive, but I still feel compelled. Second, please note the following replies are mine alone, and do not represent the current TLCA BOD. I was on the TLCA BOD as WIR for all of 2006, and the first few months of 2007. I can not speak for anyone else, so please do not construe it as anything but the opinion of one man, unless otherwise noted. Having said that, let me respond inline....

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

Ross, I have to respectfully disagree here. I have no idea what you mean when you say I tried to "position myself against Trails."

What I mean is -- you've printed things that I feel could erode the advertising revenue that Trails is receiving. As mentioned in my previous post.

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

You correctly note that I attended several TLCA events and that is key: is that the sign of someone who is "positioned against" the TLCA? Of course not. 4WD Toyota Owner magazine has devoted dozens of pages and scores of photos that lets people from outside the TLCA base learn about the association and its events. As a member of the TLCA, I covered TLCA events starting all the way back with our Premiere issue (the Rubithon, which I sent an editor on).

Let's visit that for a moment. First up, I believe you joined just a short few months prior to your first issue. You or your reps attended events without notifying the organizers that you were attending. This was noted on 'mud back in '06. While it is by far NOT a requirement that you let people know, your lack of communication prevented accurate photo captions (specifically Rubithon). By not working with the organizers, you allow people to speculate what your motives really are.

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

I don't disparage Trails and in fact if you ask vendors or random people I talk it up! I have raved in print and in response to email queries about the folks at Rising Sun/Cruise Moab. GSMTR. Rubithon. "Ya gotta join TLCA if you want to go," I tell people.

Do you subscribe to or are familiar with 4WD Toyota Owner? Anyone who reads it will know TLCA events are published in issue after issue after issue.

No, I don't. You haven't sent me one. If you were wishing to work with TLCA, certainly a complimentary copy to the BOD would have helped people understand your publication better. All of the BOD's addresses are published in every issue of Trails. Since you are a member, I presume you had the information available.

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

On your point about exclusivity, unfortunately but respectfully you are wrong. 4WD Toyota Owner absolutely did have an exclusive in that we had Toyota test driver Joe Bacal write us a 100% exclusive account of his drive across the Rubicon in the then-new FJ Cruiser with Bill Burke spotting. No one else had a story written by the actual factory test driver except us. We never claimed to have been in the truck or wrote that we were there--it was from Joe all the way.

This is where you put your spin on what happened. However, if you look back at your spam on 'mud, or even the cover of that magazine, you'll notice that you claimed "exclusive photos and drive report from the Rubicon". You seem to have forgotten that Trails had already published virtually identical photos. To me, as a Board member, I felt you tried to undermine what we had already published.

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

Finally, the thing about claiming to being superior to Trails...Huh? Where? When? We are two totally different beasts. Trails is probably one of the best club newsletters in the form of a magazine out there, on par with the high-dollar Porsche club newsletter mags. Key here: it's a club publication. 4WD Toyota Owner is a independent commercial magazine made for a newstand audience and subscribers.

Again, this is from me, and not from the Board, but let me ask you -- back in late 2005, and early 2006, I seem to remember that you had wanted to swap ad space with TLCA. You were asked to provide distribution numbers (total paid subscriptions, number of retail outlets, etc). To the best of my knowledge, you weren't able to present those numbers.

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

There's nothing superior about either mag, we are different entities, with different looks, audience, and different purposes. Also, soliciting ads from the same vendors is NOT the work of an enemy, either.

FACT: 4WD Toyota Owner magazine has put the TLCA name in front of many, many thousands of people in a very positive light. I resent being depicted as somehow hurting the TLCA.

Relating to Josie'sLandCruisers original post, I think it's clearly a good business idea! As TRT2 said, it is symbiotic.

In responding to the original poster, I gave reasons that I knew of as to why it hasn't happened in the past. I have no idea if either party has approached the other, so I can't answer that. There were many BOD members who felt that ad swap would be beneficial. There were others that felt differently.

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

By the way, I'll be at Cruise Moab, as usual. Driving my FZJ80 1100 miles from Washington to wheel and cover the event for 4WD Toyota Owner. I'd be happy to meet you and chat then. You'll be there too? Ben will be at the Calico Cleanup which we are helping sponsor. If you go there, look for a tall guy with tattoos driving a blue 1979 FJ40 on 37" PitBulls and say hi.

9

Dave -- I have no idea who you or any of your contributors are. I have been at several events where you have had coverage, but I don't remember anyone introducing themselves. I am at every Rubithon, I was at the last two Surf -n- Turfs, I'll be at Cruise Moab.

There was a post a year or so ago, where a few people suggested that you have a knowledgeable outsider proof read your trip reports. In the past, they had several names wrong, and a couple of "foot in mouth" comments ("fl45lv least desirable").

I wish you no ill will. Honest. I only offered the original poster an explanation for why things hadn't occurred in the past. That doesn't mean that it is still the case, or that 4wdto and tlca can't work with each other. I think you should.

[4WD Toyota Owner Magazine]

That was an extremely eye-opening post in answer to JosiesLandCruiser's original question and I thank you. I've wondered where the ill will came from, and now I know it's due to attending events without introducing ourselves, mis-captioned photos, publishing pictures AFTER another magazine did, opining that an FJ45 SWB pickup is more coveted than a FJ45LV, etc. Good! The air is clear! Hopefully those imagined transgresses can be now be forgiven, some two+ years later. I'm loving my job and the mag is doing great. I've stated my support of TLCA and Trails. I've shown it repeatedly in print. Anyone who believes otherwise is, well, . It's time for them to move onward and upward!

Dave

But I still say more people would choose a SWB FJ45 pickup over an LV. See ya at Cruise Moab!

[Trollhole]

All you left coast people. Griping and complaining.

What? Did I just say that?

Two totally different animals.

Dave sells to the masses TLCA to the ones that want to be part of an association. Which anyone including the masses can be a part of if they own a 4x4 Toyota.

TLCA offers stickers, dash plaque and event insurance. Dave doesn't.

Both are about Toyota. Daves' has a little more diverse content.

Both have the same basic ads.

Both have color

Both you recieve in the mail

Both cover events

TLCA has members write articles. I'm sure if you wrote something and sent it to Dave and it was good he would probably publish it.

Dave doesn't want chapter reports in his magazine. Wait, neither does TT.

Todd does TT, Dave does 4WDTOM both are awesome magazines.

So wait. Are they really different?

If Dave gave stickers and dash plaques out along with event insurance and only sold to people who own a 4wd Toyota would he be any different than TLCA?



Dave any tiime you want to come on down south and come to an event you just let me know or don't know. I don't care. You have an open invite.

[4WD Toyota Owner Magazine]

Thanks, Marshall. Very much appreciated and we will take you up on that! And, ditto for you any time you come to the Left Coast!

Dave

[chattfj40]

Dave,

Same invite applies to GSMTR. Come on down We'd love to have ya at Tellico. We could certainly use the press b/c of the threatened lawsuit by trout unlimited.

Todd Shirley
STLCA VP

[Bodean]

Yall just get over it and work together to help promote Toyotas in general. David and the guys at 4wd Toyota Owners magazine have been very generous to the CottonLand Cruisers and the Southern Cruiser Crawl with donations to the raffle. I look forward to recieving both magazines and read both cover to cover. I certianly don't think of them as competitors. Play nice!

Later,

[Radd Cruisers]

I have recieved TTs, it was always a month or sometimes longer late, I was told it was the post offices fault and eventually did not renew my membership. Trails is a big part of why I joined in the first place and really really...... enjoyed the magazine.


Toyota Owners magazine is next on my list to get and see how they fair with their delivery times.


Both are good reading material, one is a tad more personal since I have met a few of the cruiser heads who post articles.

Rob

[Hulk]

I personally enjoy both magazines. As a reader, I find them to be very different, and that's a good thing, I think.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by Radd Cruisers

I have recieved TTs, it was always a month or sometimes longer late, I was told it was the post offices fault and eventually did not renew my membership. Trails is a big part of why I joined in the first place and really really...... enjoyed the magazine.


Toyota Owners magazine is next on my list to get and see how they fair with their delivery times.


Both are good reading material, one is a tad more personal since I have met a few of the cruiser heads who post articles.

Rob

Ah hell, not you again.

[Radd Cruisers]

Yep me again, I went away for awhile and left ya alone.


Couple local TLCA ex patriots here on the island had the same gripe and have dropped thier memberships.

But what do you care, you prolly get your magazine on time......

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Ah hell, not you again.

[woooody]

Originally Posted by Bodean

Yall just get over it and work together to help promote Toyotas in general. David and the guys at 4wd Toyota Owners magazine have been very generous to the CottonLand Cruisers and the Southern Cruiser Crawl with donations to the raffle. I look forward to recieving both magazines and read both cover to cover. I certianly don't think of them as competitors. Play nice!

Later,

Jeff -- Not sure who "yall" is -- but there's nothing to get over, really. I have no say in anything that TLCA or TWDO do, or don't do. Just answered the original posters question.

As I stated -- That was my impression from 2006. It's 2008. Perhaps Dave should contact the current TLCA leadership, and see if they feel that it's worthwhile to cross promote. Perhaps Dave is now in a position to provide the information that the BOD had requested the last time this was brought up?

It's obvious from many of the posts here that several current and past BOD members are favorable to such an arrangement. And T4WDO has a couple of years under their belt now, and have become more established.

Me? I'm just some guy out in California, waiting for the next event (CM08, Rubithon, McGrew, etc...). I have nothing at stake in this.

See yall in camp

[Radd Cruisers]

Hopefully we will see you this year, we are going to renew our membership and try and work with Trails mag people and maybe even the Alberta chapter who seems to not have delivery issues.


We hope to offer both mags in the waiting area.

Rob

See yall in camp [/quote]

[pappy]

Originally Posted by woooody

Dave -- ... I have been at several events where you have had coverage, but I don't remember anyone introducing themselves. I am at every Rubithon, I was at the last two Surf -n- Turfs, I'll be at Cruise Moab.

This is all quite petty. I get both magazines. They are different, suck it up. Second, I've met Dave at several Cruise Moabs, the only TLCA event I can afford to do. I'm nobody, and he has, at every event, stuck his hand out and said "hello." He even handed out sample magazines one year. Come to think of it he was also at the Rising Sun Rally this summer, and he said "hello" to me.

The two magazines compliment each other. Get one, get both, or don't get either. Your choice.

[timmbuck2]

I get both and ready both and enjoy both. I am the new guy on the BOD, so I have no idea about any past issues, I just know they are both good reads and there are plenty of Toyota enthusiasts out there who enjoy both of them. I would be open to the idea of cross promotion.

T

[woooody]

Originally Posted by pappy

This is all quite petty. I get both magazines. They are different, suck it up. Second, I've met Dave at several Cruise Moabs, the only TLCA event I can afford to do. I'm nobody, and he has, at every event, stuck his hand out and said "hello." He even handed out sample magazines one year. Come to think of it he was also at the Rising Sun Rally this summer, and he said "hello" to me.

The two magazines compliment each other. Get one, get both, or don't get either. Your choice.

There is nothing "petty" about it. It was a direct response to a statement by Dave.

I'm glad you've met him. Really. But that wasn't the point of my statement. I honestly think the point has been lost. The point wasn't if Dave and/or T4WDO reps were at events, or talked to the people running it.

The original question was -- Why aren't TLCA and T4WDO cross promoting one another? I offered up thoughts that occurred from the last time that I know when it came up (late 2005, early 2006). Obviously, things have changed. There are different people on the BOD, and there are some of the same on the BOD. In no way am I speaking for the current board. You would have to ask Dave if he's brought the subject up again. Or you could ask Alan or Nick or Casey or any of the other BOD.

The ultimate question for either side is do they have anything to gain? Do they have anything to lose? It's really a business decision.

An example -- we all know about Henry Brimmer's Calendars. I have one from every year, as do many others. Henry approached TLCA in '06 about distributing his calendars through the TLCA webstore. It was brought to the board, discussed and voted on. We decided that due to the short sales window, and our tight budget, that the risk of unsold calendars outweighed the potential profit.

The BOD meets every month, on the last Thursday of the month. The BOD is who would decide on TLCA's behalf. It's really a question for them. My only participation in this discussion is to what happened in the past, not what could happen in the future.