BOD

[Trollhole]

How hard would it be to do a password protected forum in IH8mud that would allow the BOD to discuss TLCA issues?

Is this possible?

[Green Lantern]

Woody can do it.
Unfortunately, several of our active BOD members can not access IH8MUD duriing working hours. Most businesses block access to bulletin boards. It seems everyone can participate on the mailing list.
HTH
Happy Trails! N

[Rzeppa]

Entirely possible (Brian would simply create a new forum section and give permissions to usernames which correspond to BOD members). There are a number of BOD members who do not have access to web/can't check mud from work, but can do email. For the time being, bodrepsi and bodrepsii will continue to be the official discussion media for the TLCA BOD.

[Trollhole]

I guess I cannot see why someone couldn't access a website but can get e-mail. That really makes no sense. I understand the business block on forums. But if your doing TLCA stuff during work hrs for a company that has blocked this activity I would think they are going to frown upon using their internet connection to check your personal mail. Are we not in the 21st century?

The format it is being done in now is the most confusing thing I have ever seen. Not that I cannot figure it out but a forum would make things so much easier to use. I guess I will have to learn to scroll a lot more.

Plus you could do polls or effectively vote on issues and link to other areas of concern. Post images and have an easy format to read. I would think most of the clubs are on mud especially the Club officers. This forum has been one of the main reasons our club has grown into what it is today. Without this forum we would be small and less effective in resolving issues that come up. I would just think you would get even mor participation from club officers if you had a forum on IH8mud for them to hash things out.

[Buckru]

Whether or not someone can participate during business hours should not prevent an additional, informal place to exchange ideas. It has been said that we may have more people involved in discussion which would be a good thing.

Buck Buchanan
Texas Land Cruiser Club

[Rzeppa]

I guess everyone has their opinion. Personally, I can access the web during business hours but prefer mail lists. The main reason is I don't miss anything. vBulletin only generates an email to alert you to a new post to a thread you've subscribed to on the first new post, and then it's up to you to manually go out to the forum and look for what else you've missed. Further, vBulletin does not generate an email to alert you to a new thread, again you must manually go out and look. Email is so much more thorough and efficient.

Furthermore, email doesn't allow annoying avatars and jumping animated graphics. All those graphics distract from the message. If you want to share a photo, you can upload it to some web space and include a link. Far more efficient.

The ONLY reason I use this forum is to fulfill my duties as an elected TLCA officer.

As they say, to each his own ;-)

[ginericLC]

I'm blocked at work from anything internet that if fun. Ih8mud, Pirate's, Ebay, and almost all TLCA club's websites. I can get email though. I think the restriction came because of language and avitars and the lack of control of what is posted to the site. Our official web filter says this site is blocked because it is "Prohibitive Conent: Categorized as CHAT" And since a lot of TLCA stuff goes on during the day I'd miss out on commenting if it was moved to a forum. Maybe some folks would like it if I was silent? Where are the smilies?

[Green Lantern]

Trollhole makes a very important observation in Post #4:
<SNIP> Plus you could do polls or effectively vote on issues and link to other areas of concern. <SNIP> I would think most of the clubs are on mud especially the Club officers. <SNIP>

The times they are a changin'! TTORA is only available on the Internet. Many of the most active TLCA folks are active on IH8MUD and Pirate. If TLCA morphs into a Web Land Cruiser Club, then of course a bulletin board is the only way to go. Jeff Zepp monitors the old Land Cruiser Mailing List. I lurk there. There are folks on that list that refuse to use a bulletin board, some don't or can't join a local club (because there ain't one). I personally get phone calls from members that don't own a computer and they don't want one either.

I want to encourage everyone on MUD to leave some room for the folks that don't do computers. TLCA should be there for a broad range of members. We share a love for Toyota 4WD, we look out for each other on the trail, and we keep the sport alive for our kids.

HTH
Happy Trails! N

[wardfoto]

okay so here's the thing...
some people can't get mud at work. some people don't want it( hi, jeff )
and some people like me, have no net access at work at all. no email, no mud, no nothing. so i'm with jeff on this one, but i think the email thing kinda has to stay. however, we could always have them run conjunctively, and that way most everybody would still be in the loop.
but, for me, email download at the end of the day is way faster and easier than having to check on mud... but i still do it anyway!!!
-justin

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

The main reason is I don't miss anything. vBulletin only generates an email to alert you to a new post to a thread you've subscribed to on the first new post, and then it's up to you to manually go out to the forum and look for what else you've missed. Further, vBulletin does not generate an email to alert you to a new thread, again you must manually go out and look. Email is so much more thorough and efficient.

As they say, to each his own ;-)

I guess I don't understand. There is the BOD e-mails I recieve on issues, correct? Your saying a vbulletin is similar to what we have on MUD? All I get is these long ass e-mails with topics pointing to numbers that you have to seach for and then go through the same messages you just read in other messages to find somehow between all the <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<'s and figure out what everyone is saying and then respond with a number to a specific issue number so that it will post to the BOD.

How can this be easier than going to a forum and posting a new thread about a discussion, being able to link to past subjects, posting links to future subjects, images, all in one place in a structure that is easy to read. I cannot see how MUD is harder to understand than the BOD e-mails?

Would it be possible to have a Forum under the TLCA.com site for BOD's that would have a way to make everyone happy?

Maybe I'm not set up right.

[Rzeppa]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

I guess I don't understand. There is the BOD e-mails I recieve on issues, correct? Your saying a vbulletin is similar to what we have on MUD?

No it is not. That was my point, and why I explained the differences. To reiterate, vBulletin software ONLY sends an email to a thread you are subscribed to when a new post is generated since the last time you visited the vBulletin forum. After that, you MUST go back to the forum to see any follow ups, and you can not reply via email, you must do it via the web site the vBulletin software forum lives on.

Originally Posted by Trollhole

All I get is these long ass e-mails with topics pointing to numbers that you have to seach for and then go through the same messages you just read in other messages to find somehow between all the <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<'s and figure out what everyone is saying and then respond with a number to a specific issue number so that it will post to the BOD

Many people on email lists still don't know how to use the snip tool or how to top-quote. As a result, many emails generated on lists are difficult to follow. Forum software allows people to say "me too!" without a humongeous amount of clutter underneath. If everyone who used forums software used the quote button the same way they have the "reply" set up in their email client, it would be just as hard to follow and take up just as much space.

Originally Posted by Trollhole

How can this be easier than going to a forum and posting a new thread about a discussion, being able to link to past subjects, posting links to future subjects, images, all in one place in a structure that is easy to read. I cannot see how MUD is harder to understand than the BOD e-mails?

I never wrote that it's "easier". There are several issues here. One is that a fair number of people simply aren't allowed to visit chat sites like mud from work. Another is that in email lists, many people don't snip or top-quote or inline quote so it's hard for the reader to follow. I am using inline quoting in my reply to your post; it makes it easier to see my reply to each of your questions. Unless the person replying in a forum specifically clicks the "quote" button, the post they are replying to isn't quoted in their reply. Most people have their email client software set up to quote everything, and worse, it does it at the bottom instead of the top. This makes it extremely difficult for readers to understand because the quoted text is in reverse chronologic order. It only works well for individual person-to-person emails, where both parties are already familiar with the quoted material. In an email list, it is not only considered proper ettiquette to snip redundant quoted text, but to top-quote and put their reply to the particular point(s) they are replying to at the bottom.

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Would it be possible to have a Forum under the TLCA.com site for BOD's that would have a way to make everyone happy?

No. To elaborate, as I've written in several replies to the raising dues thread and others, it is completely impossible to please everyone, all the time. And there are circumstances, such as the complete inability of some members to surf the internet from work, which make it impractical to abandon email as a means of official communication amongst BOD members.

Email and web-based forums each have their advantages and disadvantages. Be glad that we have electronic communication at all, versus snail mail and only telephone.

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Maybe I'm not set up right.

You're probably set up just fine. The main drawback of the email list is the lack of appropriate snipping and difficult-to-follow quoting.

[Trollhole]

sorry to be a pain in the ass.

PM sent.

[Rzeppa]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

sorry to be a pain in the ass.

PM sent.

Not a PITA at all. PM received, and replied to. Happy cruisin'!

[Buckru]

I don't know some of the ettiquette you described or how to do some of the quoting. If BOD reps are destined for this type of communication, can we get a little help on how to simplify or make it clearer for all to follow.

Thanks,

Buck Buchanan
Texas Land Cruiser Club Houston

[65swb45]

If it makes any difference to the discussion, you can add ME to the list of people who don't get ANY electronic communication at work.

Best

Mark A.

[Rzeppa]

Originally Posted by Buckru

I don't know some of the ettiquette you described or how to do some of the quoting. If BOD reps are destined for this type of communication, can we get a little help on how to simplify or make it clearer for all to follow.

Thanks,

Buck Buchanan
Texas Land Cruiser Club Houston

Hi Buck,

It's all about (1) snipping excessive quoted parts of the message you are replying to and (2) putting things in chronologic order so that others can follow the conversation more easily.

When you hit the "reply" button, most email programs place the cursor at the top, with the quote you are replying to at the bottom. This is fine for emails from one individual to another, where we know that the recipient is already familiar with the quoted text; it's just there for reference. Here's an example of bottom-quoting:
----------------------------------------------------------
Hello A.B. !

Here is the relevant portion of the letter that X.Z.
sent to our group, as requested.

Yours,
N.N.

On Wednesday, X.Y. wrote,
> Hi, team!
>
> Please work on portions 5 and 9 for Friday. The customer says
> the rest isn't critical, as they mention below.
>
> Thanks,
> X.Z.
>
> On Monday, Customer wrote:
> > Dear Sir,
> >
> > We will need to have the new doohicky method implemented, as well
> > as the heffalump output. We really need this by Friday, and if
> > your team needs to shift focus to achieve those two deliverables,
> > we can wait until afterward for the remainder of the work.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > J. Customer
-----------------------------------------------------
The problem with that, is that someone who is just joining the discussion has to read the bottom stuff first, before they understand what the reply at the top is about. If the quoted material is at the top and the reply is at the bottom, the reader can read in a more natural order and figure out who said what, when, more easily. Like this:
-----------------------------------------------------
> > At 9.40am Wednesday, Jim wrote,
> > I'm going to suspend the mail service for approx. thirty
> > minutes tonight, starting at 5pm, to install some updates
> > and important fixes.
>
> At 10.01am Wednesday, Danny wrote:
> Wooh! Hold on. I have job scheduled at 5:30 which mails out
> a report to key tech staff. Can you not push it back an hour?

No problems. 6pm it is then.
-----------------------------------------------------
When replying to multiple points, inline quoting is even more effective:
-----------------------------------------------------
> On Thursday, Jim wrote:
> When considering the variation in style between the original
> novel and the movie adaptation, it is clear to see that
[snipped...]

Yes, but almost twenty years separates the book and the film.

> The movie clearly adds a sense of menace to the story which
> is not present in the original book. This is unacceptable
[Darker interpretation pros and cons, trimmed...]

I agree. The darker tone works well, once one understands
the two are aimed at different audiences.
-----------------------------------------------------
Note in the above example, the person who is writing the reply has "snipped" extra quoted text. He leaves enough so the recipient understands what he's replying to, but doesn't leave each and every word.

Does that help?

Happy cruisin'!

[woody]

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

No. To elaborate, as I've written in several replies to the raising dues thread and others, it is completely impossible to please everyone, all the time. And there are circumstances, such as the complete inability of some members to surf the internet from work, which make it impractical to abandon email as a means of official communication amongst BOD members.

not to be critical, since I fail to understand my own IT department too, but if it's not OK to be on forums dealing with "personal" stuff like TLCA, then why is it OK to do it over business email?

I've been researching forum options for mail-type interfaces but thus far none seem to work very well. vBulletin 3.6.0 doesn't have it, but there are a few rumors of what'll be in 4.0.x...possibly down the road.

As a side-note, I will never run a maillist off 'MUD...major headache...heck, I don't even have a sendmail program on the servers, it creates lots of spam hassles - all my 'MUD email is sent thru my Yahoo account.

And, there IS a de-activated TLCA BOD forum on 'MUD already....it's been decommissioned for a few years, but can be brought back at any time.

[Buckru]

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

Hi Buck,

It's all about (1) snipping excessive quoted parts of the message you are replying to and (2) putting things in chronologic order so that others can follow the conversation more easily.

"Snipped"

Note in the above example, the person who is writing the reply has "snipped" extra quoted text. He leaves enough so the recipient understands what he's replying to, but doesn't leave each and every word.

Does that help?

Happy cruisin'!

Jeff,

Thanks for your help. Couple of questions. I assume to avoid bottom quoting you just simply move the cursor beneath the quote and start typeing? How can you determine the order of replies when multiple people reply at the same time?

Buck Buchanan

[Rzeppa]

Originally Posted by woody

not to be critical, since I fail to understand my own IT department too, but if it's not OK to be on forums dealing with "personal" stuff like TLCA, then why is it OK to do it over business email?

I don't understand why either, but that's just the way some IT departments are set up. Typically they will have a hardware/software firewall at their internet gateway and either block certain domains, or block sites that contain certain keywords. I've even seen systems that (supposedly) can tell if a photo has too much skin tone and the software concludes that it must be porn and blocks it.

Originally Posted by woody

I've been researching forum options for mail-type interfaces but thus far none seem to work very well. vBulletin 3.6.0 doesn't have it, but there are a few rumors of what'll be in 4.0.x...possibly down the road.

That's correct; for the forum I admin I didn't have the option of 3.6.0 because the version of mysql on the server wasn't greater than 4.x and the host wouldn't upgrade. But when I looked closer to 3.6.0, I realized it really was no better than the 3.5.5 I installed as far as email notifications. And of course all the email that vBulletin generates is the body text of a post, you still can't reply to it using an email client. I'm still looking into a little custom php which would at least generate a new email to users who so chose whenever a new post on a subscribed thread is made, rather than just the first one. As you know, subsequent posts don't get an email; the user has to log back into the forum to reset the email generation code.

Originally Posted by woody

As a side-note, I will never run a maillist off 'MUD...major headache...heck, I don't even have a sendmail program on the servers, it creates lots of spam hassles - all my 'MUD email is sent thru my Yahoo account.

Email list software is a fairly specialized area of expertise. The birfield team is really good at it, but not many people are. I know Matt had a heck of a time getting the bodreps lists working right until he hired a guy who knew it really well, now it's humming along nicely.

Originally Posted by woody

And, there IS a de-activated TLCA BOD forum on 'MUD already....it's been decommissioned for a few years, but can be brought back at any time.

Cool. Well, as I've written before, there are advantages and disadvantages to forums versus email.

[Rzeppa]

Originally Posted by Buckru

Thanks for your help. Couple of questions. I assume to avoid bottom quoting you just simply move the cursor beneath the quote and start typeing?

Exactly! And, if the quoted text is really long, simply delete some (the "snip" tool), just leaving enough so the reader is reminded of what it is that you are replying to.

Originally Posted by Buckru

How can you determine the order of replies when multiple people reply at the same time?

Just look at your reply as if you were someone else reading it and use your best judgement. There aren't "hard and fast" rules, just guidelines for making your reply easy for people to follow.

When I first joined the Land Cruiser Mailing List some ten years ago, I pretty much lurked for a couple years, reading and observing. After a while, it isn't too hard to see how some replies are easier to follow than others. Happy cruisin'!

[Romer]

Wow a issues and still work the normal Board stuff via e-mail. That's a great idea, I wish I would have thought of it

FYI- There is a contingent that has been recommending a forum in addition to bodreps for as long as I have been a delegate, a whole year! I know it's an old debate that's been going on for some time.

I think planning and discussion items that don't have anything to do with this months meeting would be a good forum topic.

Anything needing quick resolution or timely discussion could be on the bodreps.

I think that's a fair compromise, but it get's shot down everytime it's brought up.

[Romer]

BTW Trollhole - I notice you got all respectable with your avatar now that you have some responsibility.