more Trail Gear drama

[65swb45]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

ps, i love chris geiger's reply post #32 on that same thread. "you'll be back. you'll all be back".

that's some funny stuff. what an arrogant ass. where's he gonna go when TG closes down? like any business owner would touch him with a ten foot stick?!

Georg, there are other options for that 10 foot stick!

[JuttyShabango]

I'd like to see the pics myself. I've met these guys in person and want to see for myself what the pics describe.

jutty@juttyshabango.com

Thanks in advance

[orangefj45]

you have a pm

[meluhha]

I too wouldn't mind seeing the pics...

OrangeFJ45?

Thanks!

[JuttyShabango]

Orange,

Thank you for forwarding the pics.

I have met Hobie and hung out with him (used to own Ftoy36) and can honestly say he's a good guy that made a mistake. He will pay for it like a man and more importantly learn from it. I just know Hobie well enuff to know that much about him.

What I see though, is a much bigger problem. These pics reminded me of Bill Burkes open letter 2 years ago about what he saw at Moab and the total lack of regard for the enviroment with some wheelers.

There is a faction of folks out there with Shit way over built that feel that normal trail riding is boring, mundane, and not challenging. This comes from a lack of conciousness so profound that they only see things as a challenge (like the tree) and not as a object of respect. Stick to competing then.

I'm truley saddened by these pics, cause something so totally beautiful should never be treated that way. Ever.

Wish there was an easy solution to this, but there isn't. It's gonna take a "policing our own" to get it corrected and this incident will go down in infamy and should be used as an example for years to come.

The bizz behind the run, is just as guilty of everything I mentioned here, but unfortunately it's way to easy to point a finger at an individual for blame.

If I were the judge hearing this case, I'd assign 100 hours of volunteer work to the Forest Service for each offender and make them learn how to maintain a trail, what a rolling grade is, put some blood sweat and tears into the area and make an example of them.

Anything less, is not the learning experience these guys need.

Truley sad.

mark

[66fj40x2]

Well said!

[orangefj45]

yup, very well put.

from what i've beard about hobie through the boards and from common friends, he's not a bad guy at all and i for one give him props for coming onto a public forum to say "i messed up".

on the other hand, i have not seen anybody else come forward to say they were involved, even though there are pics of at least ten rigs doing the same type of stuff. shame on you.

[Fourrunner]

Haven't been able to see any ofthe pics for obvious reasons. Georg can I get those as well?

[Chef]

I concur with all this.
I very much miss the days when wheeling was family exploration of back country, camping and fishing went with it, and all it took was 33's and a rear locker...

Originally Posted by JuttyShabango

What I see though, is a much bigger problem. These pics reminded me of Bill Burkes open letter 2 years ago about what he saw at Moab and the total lack of regard for the enviroment with some wheelers.

There is a faction of folks out there with Shit way over built that feel that normal trail riding is boring, mundane, and not challenging. This comes from a lack of conciousness so profound that they only see things as a challenge (like the tree) and not as a object of respect. Stick to competing then.

I'm truley saddened by these pics, cause something so totally beautiful should never be treated that way. Ever.

If I were the judge hearing this case, I'd assign 100 hours of volunteer work to the Forest Service for each offender and make them learn how to maintain a trail, what a rolling grade is, put some blood sweat and tears into the area and make an example of them.

Anything less, is not the learning experience these guys need.

Truley sad.

mark

[petescoffee]

Not trying to rehash this but here is the Forest Service investigation result:

Forest Service takes action on Dusy Ershim incident
Contributed by Andrew Esau
Thursday, 05 October 2006
On Monday August 28, the Sierra National Forest was informed by Trail Gear Inc. of Fresno, Ca. that pictures had been posted on the internet of individuals operating their vehicles off trail on the Dusy Ershim OHV Route. In addition, the Forest Service was also notified of the incident by the Blue Ribbon Coalition, local clubs, local businesses, and many others in the OHV community.

The Forest Service responded by completing an investigation of this incident. This has resulted in two individuals being contacted and issued Violation Notices.

To clarify a few things, the USFS would like to address some of the issues that were raised because of this incident:

1. The incident did not occur at a permitted OHV event where the permit holder would be responsible for the actions of its participants and any resource damage that the event may be likely to cause. The local company that organized this trail run did not meet any criteria that would require a special use permit. As such, all participants of the trail run are responsible for their own actions. We have found the individuals at fault and not the company holding the run. At the request of Trail Gear Inc., the company organizing the run, all participants were provided a copy of USFS Rules and Regulations, a map of the OHV route, and were contacted and observed on the trail by an OHV Patrol.


2. The Forest Service was informed of this group being camped on the dry lake bed of Courtright Reservoir. In order to protect the water quality, the USFS does not promote camping below the high water mark at Courtright. To address this issue in the future the USFS will have the lakeshore posted with informational signs.


The action that the Forest Service has taken, with regards to enforcement and education, has led to a positive outcome. The individuals involved in this incident didn’t just pay their tickets and leave it at that. They have apologized for what they did and have decided to get involved. One individual said he has learned a lot of things because of this incident and that it has made him more aware why certain rules exist. He was also surprised how protective the local community is of its OHV routes. The other person has said the best education he has gained from this is to learn the rules of the area. This has raised his awareness that the rules change depending on where you recreate. He also decided to start participating in more trail clean ups, became a member of CORVA, and has decided to contact the Four Wheel Drive Club of Fresno (who have the Dusy Ershim as a Adopt a Trail) to see if there is anything he could do to help them keep the Dusy Ershim a spectacular trail.


The Sierra N.F. would like to applaud the OHV community for pulling together on this issue. Instead of focusing on the negativity of this incident, it was refreshing to see the majority of the OHV community use this time to educate people on respecting our public lands, having good trail etiquette, and urging people to get involved with the clubs and organizations that fight for public access.


Andrew Esau is the Assistant OHV Manager for the Sierra National Forest.

[66fj40x2]

Thank you for the follow up! I am glad to hear there is a positive outcome to this potentially disastrous situation and that those involved in the incident are getting involved with preservation.

We (as an OHV community) can not just "take" from what we have been given but must all learn to "give" and help preserve it as well. It is a harder lesson for some more then others, but this is an incident we can ALL learn from.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by petescoffee

From the Forest service report
"...He was also surprised how protective the local community is of its OHV routes....."

I certainly wish that our OHV community was as protective of its routes as you folks are out there. Our national orv organizations in this important area encourage 'leaders' in our community to become part of their boards....yet 'look the other way' when these same people grab large chunks of our land to be shut down to everybody but themselves. ("shared trails" my arse).

The more important issue here was the one that Mark brought up earlier and one that was maybe overlooked by many:

"...What I see though, is a much bigger problem. These pics reminded me of Bill Burkes open letter 2 years ago about what he saw at Moab and the total lack of regard for the enviroment with some wheelers...."

These national orv organizations aren't going after these 'average we don't care wheelers' who might possibly just send them some money in someday...any more than they are demanding that these cyclists finally join this multi-use community in anything resembling good faith. They rudely dismiss anybody pointing out the HUGE poorly maintained trail systems that we caretake today if it involves taking away money/grants from their 'buddies' and any talk of finally privitizing work with modern equipment in an environmentally responsible manner. And recently they've even sunk into ignoring demands that even their community sponsored workshops be actually published by the very same government employees that they invite to them.

I'm guessing that Bill Burke penned that letter in the hope that somebody in this community damn well start STANDING for something; rather than cow-towing to the lowest common denominators among us for a number of bad reasons. When one gets rudely ignored/treated and accused of seeking to "disrupt" public workshops because he simply seeks to get that workshop date published (and done correctly0 before the damn deadline blows past....what in the heck do you think our young people seeking to ask similiar questions will be faced with and how many of them will ever be interested in being treated like that again? If I'm exagerrating what has been happening over all these years: What's the average age of these leaders today and who in the heck is out there TRAINING to take their place? Brainwashed kids from AMA parents who could care less what the rest of the community does(hey, we ride 'em all!)...as long as they grab a certain number of trails each year that nobody will ever enjoy?

If our national orv leaders can't seem to strap a set on and be as "no-b.s." as Mr. Burke seems to be about responsible multi-use wheeling and the need to call every single person out here on the carpet that needs it (with the same happy result witnessed here IF they are willing)...what kind of effective 'community' are we aspiring to become....in the first place?

[woooody]

Dear MichiganChapter? (I'd use your name, but you don't seem willing to use it, so I'll just use your login id),

You seem to have some sort of agenda, and I'm not really sure how that agenda with some "national orv organization" ties into TLCA. Why are you unwilling to state who this "national orv organization" is so that we can better understand what YOUR problem is?

You've posted in numerous forums this same generalized complaint. I dont' get it. What do you want from TLCA?

You keep talking about "buddies" and favortism, and back room deals, but besides the tiny voices in your head, no one else knows who or what you are talking about.

If you want us to help, we need specifics. Who and what are you talking about?

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by woooody

Dear MichiganChapter? (I'd use your name, but you don't seem willing to use it... but besides the tiny voices in your head, no one else..."

You know, it's unfortunate that folks have to act in this manner.

I recently approached your former 'fearless leader' on some of these same issues involving very familiar individuals to him at the national level....and frankly received the same insulting response dressed up much more 'p.c.' in its insiulting nature.

I called/wrote the national orv organizations and manufacturer reps about the dates for these meetings not being published where the public recieives its official info regarding same....more insults and even an e-mail copyed to me that was forwarded to others speculating on whether I would "disrupt" the workshop itself for simply attempting to get these dates posted!

I have asked why orv organizations/individuals affiliated with these national leaders and well known to them; should be allowed to operate anonymously at the "22,000 member" representative level here at the largest maintained trail sytem in our nation. (please Google "Michigan Recreational Riders Association" in operation for over two years with no one individual/orv group even named).

I have asked why orv advisory board members continually refuse to display their contact info http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...3974--,00.html while readily accessible snowmobilers ("men-like" representatives) have absolutely no problem being reached anytime and without screening by the state.http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1116--,00.html
"...Board members may be contacted through the staff assistant..."

I could go on and on for page after page concerning this public's right to be informed/involved....right on up to yesterday; when I was informed that the orv community had made absolutely no effort to contact our Forestry service about publishing these workshop dates when informed of the absence of same...this after insisting to me via e-mail that the community could not "force" them to do so!.(heck, the only communication that these people have gotten with less than 6 days for everybody....has been from only THEIR superiors regarding the same damn outline we've got!).

At the last Michigan orv advisory board meeting (meetings shaved down from 6 times a year to 4 without a word; with our official non-partisan stenographer taken away to boot) there was one cyclist, one atver, a few fullsize guys and 3 members of the general public...one questioning the DNR's ecological caretaking of the system we have presently.
This meeting immediately followed a first-time-ever appearance by this anonymous MMRC arrogantly throwing an edict before 'our' un-elected board that they quickly/unanimously agreed upon sans any kind of published commentary from even one of them.

My point here is that the level of participation at both the local and national level isn't an "accident" or some kind of "sign of the times".
It is a direct refelection of the kind of treatment one receives above for simply questioning this community's willingness to act like men and women should when inquiring as to the public's role in (quote/unquote) "their" arrogantly inspired business.

The average age of these national leaders tells us all we need to know about the individuals young and old who have come before these people in the past... and the scores of outright rude personal experiences I've run into in these short 7 years tell the rest of that sad non-inclusive story without a doubt.

Our young people aren't going to put up with this arrogant kind of crap in the future....and they shouldn't. Unfortunately, by that time....it will be much to late to consider repairing this blatant issue of accessibility and respect.

[JuttyShabango]

You know...it's a real shame that a person with such a passion for enviromental well-being has such a difficult time with the politics associated with the cause.

If you didn't come off as such a condescending-PRICK..someone might actually listen to what your saying and take a closer look...why not right? We are all after the same thing here...access and proctecting our offroad playgrounds.

But you sir, hide behind anonimity and chastise others based on words you see on a message board without actually seeing the whole picture...and that makes you as ignorant as the people you obviously have an axe to grind with in Michigan..

There's not chapter in Michigan for the TLCA that I know off...and after personally spearheading the Ohio Chapter Reorganization this year I can say it's cause no one from Michigan with a Toyota has gotten off their ASSES and done it.

I personally, won't give one shit about what you say, who you are till you put a name in your signature line, start naming names, and pull your head out of your ass.

Until then... I'm goin wheeling this weekend...and on private property with a beautiful trail system me and some buddies built..

[orangefj45]

i'm glad that a lot of positives came out of this situation. sounds like the guys who did the most "harm" are now actively helping to keep the trails open. i guess that's about the best outcome we could hope for. props to them.

i probably should have worded some of my responses and posts differently since this thread is in the TLCA forum and the discussion topics really should pertain to the TLCA and not personal opinions like mine. either way, CONSTRUCTIVE critizism is always appreciated. be myself anyways.



michiganchapter: either spill the beans or don't post. it's that simple.

[JuttyShabango]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

i'm glad that a lot of positives came out of this situation. sounds like the guys who did the most "harm" are now actively helping to keep the trails open. i guess that's about the best outcome we could hope for. props to them.

Amen to this...talk about turn lemons to lemonaide. Kudos to all involved for putting such a positive spin on a bad situation.

[woooody]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

You know, it's unfortunate that folks have to act in this manner.

I recently approached your former 'fearless leader'

Again -- Failing to name names. Bob Brown? Tony Twiddy? Who?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

on some of these same issues involving very familiar individuals to him at the national level....and frankly received the same insulting response dressed up much more 'p.c.' in its insiulting nature.

So it's not just me that thinks you are irritating due to your unwillingness to talk in specifics, rather than generalities?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

I called/wrote the national orv organizations

Still afraid to name names?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

and manufacturer reps about the dates for these meetings not being published where the public recieives its official info regarding same....more insults and even an e-mail copyed to me that was forwarded to others speculating on whether I would "disrupt" the workshop itself for simply attempting to get these dates posted!

This should be your first hint that YOUR tactics aren't working. You can't keep using the same approach, and hope that you'll get different results. Try a different approach.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

I have asked why orv organizations/individuals affiliated with these national leaders

Again, failing to name names.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

and well known to them; should be allowed to operate anonymously at the "22,000 member" representative level here at the largest maintained trail sytem in our nation. (please Google "Michigan Recreational Riders Association" in operation for over two years with no one individual/orv group even named).

Why should I go "google it". Why are you making me do your work? Why not just state the name, dates, events, etc?

Just for fun, I tried searching on that. Your group doesn't come up.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

I have asked why orv advisory board members continually refuse to display their contact info http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...3974--,00.html while readily accessible snowmobilers ("men-like" representatives) have absolutely no problem being reached anytime and without screening by the state.http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1116--,00.html
"...Board members may be contacted through the staff assistant..."

Just a guess, but I bet it's because of guys like you. I'm beginning to second guess using my contact info.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

I could go on and on for page after page concerning this public's right to be informed/involved....right on up to yesterday; when I was informed that the orv community had made absolutely no effort to contact our Forestry service about publishing these workshop dates when informed of the absence of same...this after insisting to me via e-mail that the community could not "force" them to do so!.(heck, the only communication that these people have gotten with less than 6 days for everybody....has been from only THEIR superiors regarding the same damn outline we've got!).

Again -- How can TLCA help you with this? Are you even a TLCA member? I don't know, because you REFUSE to use your name

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

At the last Michigan orv advisory board meeting (meetings shaved down from 6 times a year to 4 without a word; with our official non-partisan stenographer taken away to boot) there was one cyclist, one atver, a few fullsize guys and 3 members of the general public...one questioning the DNR's ecological caretaking of the system we have presently.
This meeting immediately followed a first-time-ever appearance by this anonymous MMRC arrogantly throwing an edict before 'our' un-elected board that they quickly/unanimously agreed upon sans any kind of published commentary from even one of them.

This sounds like an issue for your State Elected Representative. Not the TLCA. Senator? Congressman? This is a State of Michigan group, right?

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

My point here is that the level of participation at both the local and national level isn't an "accident" or some kind of "sign of the times".
It is a direct refelection of the kind of treatment one receives above for simply questioning this community's willingness to act like men and women should when inquiring as to the public's role in (quote/unquote) "their" arrogantly inspired business.

Which community? The DNR? The MMRC? The TLCA? Help me out here.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

The average age of these national leaders tells us all we need to know about the individuals young and old who have come before these people in the past... and the scores of outright rude personal experiences I've run into in these short 7 years tell the rest of that sad non-inclusive story without a doubt.

Any rudeness that you receive may be a result of the rudeness that you exhibit.

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Our young people aren't going to put up with this arrogant kind of crap in the future....and they shouldn't. Unfortunately, by that time....it will be much to late to consider repairing this blatant issue of accessibility and respect.

Seriously -- IF there is something that TLCA can do, or should do differently, don't beat around the bush, just state it. Do you not agree with our support of the Blue Ribbon Coalation? Do you not agree with our support of the Friends of the Rubicon? Should TLCA sponsor work in a state that is unwilling to even start a chapter? Help me understand what YOU want US to do.

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by JuttyShabango

"...If you didn't come off as such a condescending-PRICK.."

Again, I don't have the time at this moment for personal attacks.
I'll repeat... this is exactly what our younger people have been exposed to here in Michigan when seeking to simply get involved and the reason but one cyclist and one atver have bothered to show up at these very important orv advisory board meetings in the middle of the most important juncture in our largest system's history.

I called the DNR today to try and enlist somebody's help in finally getting this meeting posted less than a week before the 4-wheeled "non-cyclist controlled" public would be shut out from attending same.
After quickly discerning that indeed their webmaster had never been contacted by the orv national meeting sponsors or anybody else connected with this critical workshop who had previously insisted that "force" was needed to make this posting happen before the registration deadline...guess what?
The lady made one phone call to her boss...and the workshop will be posted this afternoon!
No LIES from national orv organizations sponsoring this workshop...no un-returned e-mails from those most-likely even attending same or having any kind of 'stand-up-like-a-man' responsibility for getting the word out...but one lady acting like both the Hiawatha and Ottowa National Forest Service employees did yesterday:
WE RESPECT THE PUBLIC'S RIGHT TO KNOW AND DON'T WANT TO SEE A SINGLE TRACK MINORITY REPRESENTING THE MAJORITY OF USERS OUT THERE AT ANY WORKSHOP SUPPOSEDLY DESIGNED TO FOSTER COOPERATION/COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ALL OF THESE GROUPS INCLUDING US.

Kudos to every one of the 3 government employees I contacted both today and yesterday for allowing the 4-wheeled general public to finally be made aware of their right to attend this workshop not 6 days ahead of losing it.

And if any one of you haven't figured out just who beats their chests over sponsoring these workshops right down to and including your former "fearless leader"....then I suggest that you stop drinking the KoolAid when it comes to the very simplest of issues out there dividing us.

Ran out of time...yet are there any more verbal assaults out there to illustrate my fact-based points above more vividly?

[MichiganChapter?]

Originally Posted by woooody

"...Just for fun, I tried searching on that. Your group doesn't come up....".

Uhhhhh, they're not "my" anonymous group or anyone else's in this state...THAT WAS THE POINT!

For pete's sake, guys...when you brush this anonymous representation aside with either ignorance or apthy....what in the heck do you think our kids get when they contact national leadership or try to go to the state or even their local leaders with this same problem!

I expect this from those trying to protect others within our (quote/unquote) "leadership"...yet when you guys act like "what's the problem?"...what in the heck 'hope' do these young people have of ever being heard?

[JuttyShabango]

Originally Posted by MichiganChapter?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Fixed it for ya'..