Thoughts on raising TLCA dues???

[TUFFTORQ]

Well, I've only been a member of TLCA since 2004. Nope, I don't remember the yellow trails that's mentioned. I agree that publication rates have very likely and dramatically increased over the years. Nope, I do not think that I'm getting $35 bucks worth of specific Toyota information in the six issues that I receive. In fact, I think I've seen the same specific information online and in other publications such as 4wd Toyota Owner's Magazine, IH8MUD, PBB, TTORA etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like the chapter reports, articles, event coverage, and advertisments like the next guy. The problem is and if I'm not mistaken, Toyota Trails is an extremely large expense. Exceeding six figures this year? Wow! If this is why we want to increase dues, then I don't agree with an increase. Maybe consider publishing a newspaper or seek better rates, if it's that important.

It really sucks that we are so focused on Toyota Trails being published that we can't adequately support or fund the only recognized TLCA land use group, BRC. We as an organization didn't give more than a grand in '05? The budget for '06 is still under funded. Don't you think that as an organization we should be supporting BRC, FOTR, and other groups that campaign and fight to keep the very trails and forest's open that you want to have events held? Sierra Club and the other greeny geeks have how much money available to campaign and fight with? I think it surpasses our lack of efforts by a long shot. Without BRC's backing and efforts, I don't think that anyone would disagree that we may be a simple car club holding events in a city park if we don't contribute more. If this is why we want to increase the dues, then I do agree and support an increase. These are my own personal views and opinions.

Throwing all the cards on the table, I urge individual and chapter members to grab a copy of the P&L for actual numbers and come up with their own opinion.

Mark

Originally Posted by Poser

Just some quick thoughts…



I signed up back in 1992 because I was looking for information, both general and technical, specifically on Toyota Land Cruisers, and also, wanted to find more parts options than you could find in the monthly diapers. I have made this statement since I received my first Toyota Trails, and continue to say it today, the money spent on my TLCA membership has been, hands down, then best money I have ever spent on my Land Cruisers. The Trails newsletter is tangible reference material. The stories shared by the authors and the insightful technical information shared is second to none.



TLCA events are a good time but I fail to see how requiring attendance is going to somehow fix everything. This is a hobby to some, a way of life for a few and just another interest to most, and at the end of the day, it is centered on a goddamn vehicle. Seems like this can easily get out of perspective. I have not ever understood excluding people that have a similar interest in something simply because they choose not to ‘keep up’ with the pace that seems to be set and accepted by the majority, or owned a different brand of vehicle.





The folks that are making an argument against raising the dues, I have to ask:



How long have you been a member?



Have you been a member long enough to remember reading the yellow trails?



Are you aware that the cost of publication, just like ANYTHING ELSE could possibly have increased in ten-plus years?



Do you really think that you are not getting AT LEAST 35.00us worth of information specific to your interest from this publication a year?




I have been paying for first class since 1996, iirc, and I am paid up till 2010, and will gladly send in money to pay any difference.


Increase the dues. I will pay it.

[KOWBOY]

Originally Posted by treerootCO

I have one question for Kowboy ...

Events are put together by the local chapters of TLCA. If TLCA is all about the events, why do we only have two!?! chapters celebrating TLCA's 30th anniversary?

I can't answer this sir on behalf of the various Chapters. However ...

Although The White Trash didn't host a 30th-anniversary specific event ... we did host a TLCA-sanctioned event ... The Family Reunion. It was limited to "members only" so we could get the bugs out the first year or so ... but hopefully will be open to all TLCA members in the near future once we get the format perfected. As members or guest, many of the TLCA BOD were present.

I do believe all Chapters should host a TLCA-sanctioned event of some size level. How much do I believe this??

I spent damn-near 5 grand of my own money to put on The Family Reunion.

I'm well aware that VERY few Folks support my radical viewpoints ... which is probably a good thang. But I do personally live what I preach. In addition to hostin' The Reunion ... I've attended 3 other TLCA sanctioned events this year ... with two more scheduled for sure. And hopefully a non-sanctioned event .... need me to bring some more beer Jim?

.... and I usually drag a bunch of The White Trash with me when I go.

So ya'll don't need to be gettin' offended by what I say ... hell, ya'll ain't even gotta listen/read what I say ... but ... By Gawd ... I just ain't met a SINGLE person yet at an event that said "Gee ... this sucks ... I ain't gonna go to another one."

Nosir ... just go to one ... and you'll be hooked.

Carry on.

[Hulk]

Originally Posted by Kaderabek

First, how would you recruit 500-1000 new members by lowering the cost of membership? And even if this is the case, how do you get to these cheap bastards (er, people)?

I think there is a threshold price that we need to determine and stay underneath. In my experience selling merchandise at events, it seems the threshold is twenty bucks. If something is $20 or less, it's a no brainer for most people. "Eighteen bucks to sign up for TLCA? Hell yeah." How do we get the cheap bastids to sign up? Not sure. But is seems like an easier sell at 18 than 25.

Originally Posted by Kaderabek

Second, why is membership in Rising Sun worth twice that of membership in TLCA?

Jeff answered this pretty thorougly.

Originally Posted by Kaderabek

An observation as well -- it sounds to me like you don't really need TLCA. There's only one thing that you would miss if we folded. I find that really hard to believe. I don't mean that as a criticism, it's just hard for me to imagine that TLCA means so little to you.

That's probably true; I was overly harsh. I do like being part of the overall TLCA community, and I would miss it if it evaporated.

Originally Posted by Kaderabek

Oh, you forgot one thing -- you'd lose your high paying TLCA webmaster job (and your health club privileges at our palatial office complex).

It's certainly a privilege to do something so intricately involved with my Cruiser hobby and get some money for it too. I'm going to need to look into those health club benefits; so far all I've received is some extra pounds from eating Werther's carmels while sitting in front of my computer working on the web site!

[Ian Rogers]

Originally Posted by TUFFTORQ

I urge individual and chapter members to grab a copy of the P&L for actual numbers and come up with their own opinion.

Mark

how do i get the P&L report? i have asked but maybe i need to ask agin.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

LOL!!!

This is the same pres who used to call for meetings at 6:00PM Eastern and 9:00PM West coast time ;-)

ppppppppfffffffffttttttttttt.....

[Chef]

Originally Posted by TUFFTORQ

The problem is and if I'm not mistaken, Toyota Trails is an extremely large expense. Exceeding six figures this year? Wow! If this is why we want to increase dues, then I don't agree with an increase. Maybe consider publishing a newspaper or seek better rates, if it's that important.

It really sucks that we are so focused on Toyota Trails being published that we can't adequately support or fund the only recognized TLCA land use group, BRC. We as an organization didn't give more than a grand in '05? The budget for '06 is still under funded.
Throwing all the cards on the table, I urge individual and chapter members to grab a copy of the P&L for actual numbers and come up with their own opinion.

Mark

Three things:
1) Yes, TT is a big expense. It's also why most people join. Go back to a "newpaper" and see how many people quit: it'll be lots, and I'll be one of them.
2) Our BRC donation is not underfunded, it's being paid in installments due to our tight bank account. Please fact check before saying things like this.
3) By all means, any TLCA general or board member who wants a copy of the TLCA P&L can contact Casey and request one. I'm very open to ways to maximise what we use meber dollars for.

I like this thread lots, thanks folks!

thx, alan

[TUFFTORQ]

Dude, I personally didn't join TLCA for Toyota Trails. I joined it for the sanctioned events and chapter participation; even though there are only two held near me. It's an enormous expense that's causing a tight bank account. If anything, scale back Toyota Trails until membership increases and revenue is generated to support it.

I did fact check it with the P&L before saying this and it shows that BRC received less than a grand last year in '05. It was even less in years previous. This year the budget and P&L show installment payments totalling $5K. Where else do I look to fact check and see more? Are we supporting FOTR or another group? To me as a paid member, it seems underfunded and deserves more attention than publishing Toyota Trails with an annual cost exceeding six figures. Merely my sole opinion.

Again, is this the primary reason to increase dues?

Originally Posted by Chef

Three things:
1) Yes, TT is a big expense. It's also why most people join. Go back to a "newpaper" and see how many people quit: it'll be lots, and I'll be one of them.
2) Our BRC donation is not underfunded, it's being paid in installments due to our tight bank account. Please fact check before saying things like this.
3) By all means, any TLCA general or board member who wants a copy of the TLCA P&L can contact Casey and request one. I'm very open to ways to maximise what we use meber dollars for.

I like this thread lots, thanks folks!

thx, alan

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

If it's the primary reason people join...... Why should it not be the primary reason to raise dues? I don't think anyone in this thread has said they joined TLCA because TLCA suports BRC..... I'm glad we do, but if we let the trails fall to the side, membership will drop and the BRC will get even less..... Nothing's perfect.

[pismojim]

If I'm paying $42 (membership plus postage), $20 for BRC, $20 for Treadlightly are my dues already raised?

What if I buy $100 of Rubithon Raffle Tickets and donate a $100 worth of raffle prizes (as an individual)?

I'll gladly pay more if dues are raised.


(My plan is to increase my contributions so, as an individual, I personally contribution more to TLCA than coporate Toyota.)

[calamaridog]

I'm still happy to pay the $3+ increase if that will help cover the cost of Trails. Also happy to upgrade to 1st class postage.


Requiring participation is done at the local level at the chapters, not by TLCA. You want to belong to a chapter, then I'm sure participation is required.


And the internet has allowed me to meet TLCA members all over the country who have taken me wheeling when I'm out of state

[Land Schmoozer]

Dues were last raised in 1998. The inflation rate since January 1999 to January 2006 is 20.69%. That comes out to $5.17 cents or $30.17. hummm...

[Green Lantern]

Wow!
This thread is really great. Lots being said and lots o' participation.

I want to confirm that we need a Dues increase to MAINTAIN the higher quality you've all enjoyed since January in Toyota Trails. I also want to beg everyone to write an article about anything cruiser related and send it to Todd.

Finally, TJK wrote: "Oh, you forgot one thing -- you'd lose your high paying TLCA webmaster job (and your health club privileges at our palatial office complex)." And I thought I got skipped for an Executive Washroom key... but Kowboy told me to use a quarter like everyone else.
;-)

Happy Trails! N

[pappy]

I just put gas in the 4Runner today. The pump stopped at $75 and my tanks weren't even full. I'm a cheap bastard and pay the $25 cash rate. Raise me $3 ... or $5 and I'll hardly blink. Shoot I pay more than twice this for professional organizations, only get a journal 4 times a year, there's no color, and the reading is as dry as hell. $25 is cheap.

To satisify everybody, $2 should go to Trails, and the other buck goes to BRC. See how easy that was?

Jon

[fj40charles]

I'm going to say a few things that many people may not agree with... I enjoy the TT when it arrives, but it is NOT my reason for joining..... I read the TT magazine, but I can't remember a time when I read the entire magazine.. Some things in TT just do not appeal to me.

I don't really think making the TT magazine all color is going to increase the membership. I think this is a losing proposition if we're losing money due to printing and shipping costs.

I think we could get by with less color on the TT magazines. I support the idea of raising the TLCA dues.. Make it $40.00/year. It won't make a difference to me. I'm sure there will be some members that say, they'll quit. Perhaps, these cheap/frugal folks might want to
cut back on a couple trips to Starbucks each month to pay for the increase in TLCA dues.

[wesintl]

Originally Posted by TUFFTORQ

Dude, I personally didn't join TLCA for Toyota Trails. I joined it for the sanctioned events and chapter participation; even though there are only two held near me.

Remember, the TLCA means different things to different people. To some what they get out of it is sanctioned events and insurance by tlca that helps make this happen. To others, the TLCA IS Trails.

[desertdude]

Damn long thread to get caught up on

Without the internet this conversation would take longer and those of us that joined in late would not have the chance to review it

When you raise the dues do it once and do it big - hard to get more later ( even though you will just not as soon)

You can ask for donations and give status to those who give, to help raise some funds

The mag may now be able to stand on it own in public, but this will change things forever (like adding mini trucks to a LC mag, sorry could not resist) keep it exclusive

Every FJ cruiser sold should have a join card in it - for that matter every LC

The org and mag cannot compete with the various boards - so it should offer something else that you cannot get on the net - well written full trip articles - interesting and informative how to articles - ahead of the curve equipment reviews - and glorious full page photos of the vehicles we love - just to name a few


Those of us who will pay and support the org will still be here and some newer folks will pay the premium - Please raise it to $50.00 w/1st class postage - then offer some added value

[edit] just to add - having been a member for a while and reading Marks tech for years and years it was finally great to meet him in Alaska ...yes this was TLCA at its best

[Land Schmoozer]

rogersfj401969,

send me your e-mail address and i'll send you a P&L with the 2006 budget...

cmcmampbell54@hotmail.com

[woooody]

Let me add a few thoughts here...

I hate the argument that Trails is causing the increase in dues. The two are not hand in hand.

Back when it was nothing more than a photocopied newsletter, we received very little if any advertising. TLCA paid for this.

As Trails grew into a publication, TLCA was able to offset some of the cost of publishing it by charging for advertising.

Even though it "costs" 100K to publish trails, it doesn't cost TLCA 100K. We receive a lot of advertising money to offset the cost of publication. We also generate revenue from back issue sales. It's easy to pick on Trails, because the number is big.

I prefer to look at it this way -- We budgeted $XXX,XXX for operating expenses. We budgeted $XXX,XXX for expenses. In our budget, we didn't really zero out, as we expected to reach a certain membership level (See Jeff's comments about adding more).

We are losing money each month, in the idea that our expenses exceed our revenue.

We are left with choices -- increase revenue, or decrease expenses, or both.

So -- increase revenue -- The thinking on dues is that we've been pretty flat on membership, hovering in the mid 3000's -- We are actually up to 3600. 4000 has been a goal, but we've never been able to go over that... So, if we have a finite pool, and choose to continue our spending, we either need to get paid more (raise dues) or get a 2nd job (add members). I feel raising dues is long over due, and many support it.

Our other option is to decrease expenses. Rather than hitting on the easy one (Trails) how about we look at the WHOLE BUDGET. (This is the part where I become very unpopular). Is everyone aware that we budget roughly $8 per member for our Administrator? Nearly 1/3 of what we collect from membership is spent on our paid Administrator. It's a tough job, and we've had a number of people cylce through there, but are we spending our money wisely? I wasn't on the BOD when the last contract was let out, but I never saw this position advertised in Trails. Did it go out for bid? Or did we just come up with a figure we thought was necessary to get the job done?

We have other paid spots -- Advertising sales, Treasurer services (accountant?), and Web Master. I know for Web Master the BOD set the rate, and then picked the best candidate. Not sure on the others.

My point is that we shouldn't just hammer away on Todd and Toyota Trails. There are other areas where we might be able to trim expenses (put the job out to bid) or increase revenue (dues, more members, more advertisers, etc). I think we need to look at the whole thing.

Respectfully

[Rzeppa]

Very well thought-out and written, Ross. I certainly agree that no part of the expense budget should be off limits in terms of examination and evaluation. I also agree that we really shouldn't cut too much from Trails, IMHO, it's our crown jewel. The Treasurer's budget isn't really a contract, it's a nominal stipend, as merchandise used to be with the Twiddys. Ad sales are a relatively small commision, no flat rate or stipend there.

Many moons ago, we suffered customer service because membership and many administrative functions were being handled by volunteers. Dave Brown put the idea out back in around 2001 to make it a paid contractor position to get the customer service level up, which is why it pays as much as it does. We finally were able to move forward on that after a few setbacks within the BOD (ref inside one of the many side plots to the fiasco mentioned in today's bodrepsii flatnasty thread).

Okay, I am in elected office; I guess that makes me a politician :-) So do you want me to raise taxes? Curiously, the majority of the respondents in this thread have said yes. Personally, I don't want my taxes raised. I want lower taxes for the same services, or more services for the same taxes.

My proposed alternative, is to keep taxes the same and instead increase revenue through increased membership and merchandise sales. I had a TLCA member PM me on this forum offering to do inventory/fullfillment of TLCA merchandise. Bringing merchandise back "in-house" will do two things. It will allow us to present the merchandise the way we want to within our web store, and it will bring our margins back to a range where we can actually make money on merchandise.

Our current merchandise situation is enough for a whole 'nother thread, but is highly relevent to the discussion of whether we "need" to raise dues, regardless of what inflation has been since the last dues increase.

[Ian Rogers]

this will sound stupid but if dues when to $40 i would only join when i was going to rubicon or moab. I would be a member every other year. There is just not the $40 worth of info in the(tt) tlca. look at Cal 4 wheel they will send you In Gear ( their mag) for 3 mo free, just to show you what they do.... its full of cool info its worth every $ ($45) but so much of the fund go to keep trails open i think that is like 60%. I think TLCA is cool but maybe we should cut back on the Administrator and the trails, could it be in newspaper format? if we cut down on the Administration and the TT we could up our website that is where is at NOW. sorry to rant

[woooody]

Jeff

I'm all in favor of increasing revenue, if it will keep services the same or better. I guess we just have a different approach to the "how".

In doing these calls for expired members, I'm finding a few "themes" --

Just forgot

No longer have Cruiser

Don't feel Trails is worth it, don't participate in Events. (Yes I'm grouping them as one)


As many have reflected -- I joined back in 1997 -- LCML was running, and was the only resource, but led me to many TLCA people -- Henry C, Henry B, Gary B, Mark W, even Andy L -- All of the LCML'ers were TLCA'ers, and were a great resource of info.

We're in a different place now -- The info that we exclusively brought as TLCA is available through many outlets. Maybe it's a credit to Trails that other magazines and forums now exist, and actually take away from our exclusivity. So, going forward, what can TLCA offer that these other guys can't?

Events --- Jim, Kowboy and many others point to that. The ability to hang out with other Cruiserheads. To see many "must see" 4wheeling areas with like minded people. Rubicon, Moab, Black Hills, GSMTR -- all of the places have "other" events, but would you rather hang out with Cruiser guys and gals, or a bunch of Chevy/Jeep/Ford/Rover people? I opt for my club, and my chapter.

I know there's been a lot of resistance to the FJC, and 100's and 80's weren't welcomed that much way back either. But they may be the future to TLCA.

We've seen many more events this year, and many new faces. Hopefully, these new events will increase participation, which will increase the desirability to TLCA.

So -- What's my point? What do the reasons have to do with reality? I think we need to sell the Organization, the network of people and vendors, the technical knowledge, and the camaraderie... The “why” we joined in the first place.

I think we also need to deal with the reality that about 15% of our membership isn’t going to renew next year, and the year after that. Which means that we have to get 40 or 50 new members EVERY MONTH in order to continue spending money at the rate that we are. Add to that the additional 30 new members that we need to add EVERY MONTH so that we can get to 4000, and I feel overwhelmed. Which is why I favor the raising of the dues, rather than the hope of increasing membership to 4000

Respectfully