Solar Power for your Residence? Buy, Lease, Wait??? (1 Viewer)
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Like I said in my post all that is needed is to be plugged into an outlet.
An inverter simply plugged into an outlet runs the risk of putting lethal voltages out on the grid when the utility guys expects no power. Just remember AC can go both directions through transformers, so an automatic disconnect of some sort is a good idea. Might even save a fine or three; or occassionally a life.
Just remember AC can go both directions through transformers, so an automatic disconnect of some sort is a good idea. Might even save a fine or three; or occassionally a life.
Would it be a good idea to consult an electrician?
Phil,
The thread that shocked me is a 800W solar array plugged into a 120V outlet to generate your 125kWH a month. Making the assumption the solar panels power an inverter that is connected to the house and then via the meter the grid; yeah, an electrician knowledgeable about power distribution would be a good idea. If I am misinformed of your setup, my apologies.
ps: if a grid tie inverter is in use, one specifically designed for that purpose, the connection type is likely irrelevant (the mfg can explain if and why); but any other type of inverter is not a good idea. GT inverters usually have some form of sensing to detect grid power and do an automatic disconnect to prevent accidents, similar to most standby generators.
The thread that shocked me is a 800W solar array plugged into a 120V outlet to generate your 125kWH a month. Making the assumption the solar panels power an inverter that is connected to the house and then via the meter the grid; yeah, an electrician knowledgeable about power distribution would be a good idea. If I am misinformed of your setup, my apologies.
ps: if a grid tie inverter is in use, one specifically designed for that purpose, the connection type is likely irrelevant (the mfg can explain if and why); but any other type of inverter is not a good idea. GT inverters usually have some form of sensing to detect grid power and do an automatic disconnect to prevent accidents, similar to most standby generators.
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Saddletramp
GOLD Star
Last time I checked, Phil is an Electrician with more than 30 years experience.
Linemen have been killed by folk doing non-standard things in homes, like adding power sources that energize the grid when there's a power outage. Something plugged in to an outlet seems like one too many corners cut. As for my experience? I designed my first power supply and 500WS landing strobe in 1972, even helped Bonneville Power Administration design some power test gear. I've even had the experience of being kicked across the room while working on gear poorly designed by someone who had a lot more experience than me. So experience isn't always what you expect; and bad ideas are still bad ideas.
In Phil's defense, he may have meant an inlet socket, not an outlet; he may even have a full grid rated inverter complete with disconnect. But those words weren't used, so there is room for confusion and concern.
In Phil's defense, he may have meant an inlet socket, not an outlet; he may even have a full grid rated inverter complete with disconnect. But those words weren't used, so there is room for confusion and concern.
You never ask you just assume.....
For the record - I have employed and worked with 100 of journeyman/apprentice and none have died or anyone else after over 30 years of being selfemployed.
You're right Phil, I didn't ask.
Quoting a source: According to [OSHA]….60 to 100 linemen annually suffer “devastating” injuries that leave them permanently crippled, missing limbs, or severely burned. And that’s not counting the workers injured at publicly owned utilities such as those run by cities. Those companies, which make up as much as one-third of the U.S. utility industry, don’t have to report injuries to OSHA.
Quoting a source: According to [OSHA]….60 to 100 linemen annually suffer “devastating” injuries that leave them permanently crippled, missing limbs, or severely burned. And that’s not counting the workers injured at publicly owned utilities such as those run by cities. Those companies, which make up as much as one-third of the U.S. utility industry, don’t have to report injuries to OSHA.
What is the NEC section for connecting a power source to a home? Does it allow for "plugged" connections?
They are rhetorical questions, no answer needed. I'm just concerned that people who read your post that you just plug in your power will misunderstand all the detail behind what you did. Copycats, if you will, that might do something silly.
They are rhetorical questions, no answer needed. I'm just concerned that people who read your post that you just plug in your power will misunderstand all the detail behind what you did. Copycats, if you will, that might do something silly.
Saddletramp
GOLD Star
So basically you are saying a licensed electrician using his head rather than trusting what they think should be safe. I believe the same message is true of firearms, always check and never trust what someone told you.
So back to the original debate, does it make sense to lease or buy a solar system for our home?
I question the payback, and I question the longevity of the panels. Of course I also remember when solar water heaters were all the rage in the 70's. Most of us can remember how that turned out.
So back to the original debate, does it make sense to lease or buy a solar system for our home?
I question the payback, and I question the longevity of the panels. Of course I also remember when solar water heaters were all the rage in the 70's. Most of us can remember how that turned out.
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Investments like this might work for a person who lives next door, yet be a complete waste of money simply in how I use electricity. Do a full cost benefit analysis based on your usage habits and what you plan to install and then decide. However, if you move forward, don't deviate from the plan unless you redo the analysis and it still pays a dividend.
I'd not worry about the life of a panel. The active parts are mostly glass, silicon, and copper, things that age pretty well under UV bombardment. Connections may age, but crimps and lead/tin/silver solders do pretty well. As for 30 years out? Accelerated life testing is an old art, you can have some faith the end-of-life efficiency numbers given for your CB analysis are representative.
An item solar enthusiasts often don't mention is the requirement to keep the panels sparkly clean. Phoenix is pretty dusty. How often do you wash your car to keep it shiny? That's about how often you need to clean panels to keep them at peak efficiency (in solar, 1% lost is significant).
You want to include those types of factors when doing your CBA, too. On the opposite side; who knows what the future holds. Is there some emerging technology that in ten years will pummel the costs to heat and cool homes? I'd like to see ceramic aerogel insulation that is less expensive to install than solar. People are working on it... but will it be available any time soon?
I'd not worry about the life of a panel. The active parts are mostly glass, silicon, and copper, things that age pretty well under UV bombardment. Connections may age, but crimps and lead/tin/silver solders do pretty well. As for 30 years out? Accelerated life testing is an old art, you can have some faith the end-of-life efficiency numbers given for your CB analysis are representative.
An item solar enthusiasts often don't mention is the requirement to keep the panels sparkly clean. Phoenix is pretty dusty. How often do you wash your car to keep it shiny? That's about how often you need to clean panels to keep them at peak efficiency (in solar, 1% lost is significant).
You want to include those types of factors when doing your CBA, too. On the opposite side; who knows what the future holds. Is there some emerging technology that in ten years will pummel the costs to heat and cool homes? I'd like to see ceramic aerogel insulation that is less expensive to install than solar. People are working on it... but will it be available any time soon?
Obviously I can't speak for other companies, but at SolarCity, the panels have a production guarantee through the entire duration of the lease (maintenance and monitoring are also included). If you purchase the system, the same is true, but for 30 years.
The panels are designed with the understanding that they'll need to be cleaned. Outside of potentially clearing snow, a few minutes with a garden hose (sprayed from ground level) is all that is needed to keep production optimized.
I would be happy to send a pdf of an actual contract if anyone would like to take a look for themselves. We try to keep everything transparent and that's how the contracts are worded. Most of our business comes from word-of-mouth, so if people aren't happy, we don't do business. It's been said a number of times that solar just doesn't make sense for everyone, which I 100% agree with. I would be happy to help anybody with a CBA if they're curious. But as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not a salesman and have no desire or motivation to push anyone into going solar.
The panels are designed with the understanding that they'll need to be cleaned. Outside of potentially clearing snow, a few minutes with a garden hose (sprayed from ground level) is all that is needed to keep production optimized.
I would be happy to send a pdf of an actual contract if anyone would like to take a look for themselves. We try to keep everything transparent and that's how the contracts are worded. Most of our business comes from word-of-mouth, so if people aren't happy, we don't do business. It's been said a number of times that solar just doesn't make sense for everyone, which I 100% agree with. I would be happy to help anybody with a CBA if they're curious. But as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not a salesman and have no desire or motivation to push anyone into going solar.
I also was quoted by Solarcity on my new (read: highly efficient) home. Over the 20 year span, my projected savings were only $5800 or roughly $24 per month. Not to mention I'd have to lease the system for 20 years, potentially risk the buyer of my home not wanting it or not qualifying for the lease takeover, and the fact that Solarcity is making out like bandits by keeping the tax incentive and whatever the overage is from my power production (because they fix the cost). The numbers didn't add up for me.
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
Deduct $500 for a roof change and your not even averaging $24. Like I said it's the companies who make out the best. I was around for a lot of these idea Pre cooler worked but if you have a heat pump the pads needed to be removed during heating or they caused a restriction to air flow across the coil. Also needed to be maintained, seen a few eat the aluminum fins when spray hit it directly because of our wonderful water. Hot Tap was one I never understood. When you really want to save money heating water is in the winter. Only way it worked at all was with a heat pump but then the hot gas off the compressor that you needed to heat you home was now also trying to heat your water. Heat pump water heaters are good idea but not sure where you want to install it. usually in a closed space. Closet, store room, garage. It needs to get it heat out of the air around it. Only one I worked on in a home years ago was in a garage. Complaint was it was heating water. Middle of the afternoon it was like a storage locker in the garage. It's not to far below freezing when a heat pump cost just as much as electric strip heat to run. It is also running all the time putting out lukewarm air at best. Installed a heat pump water heater in a home it would help cool the house during the summer time but who wants cold air in the winter even though it would work great robbing heat out of your home. Solar might be the future but right now I see to many cheaper ways to save money for the investment of buying one and hoping you stay in the home long enough to have it pay for itself. Renting still favors the company too much for me.
Think of a lease another way: somewhere a bank is making money off the deal by funding the project, so how can leasing something benefit you? In a solar array deal - I'd expect 10% the magic number given to a bank to loan you the system. That is money straight out of the payback calculation. Of course, the company selling you the product will never expose the lease fee because if you knew how expensive it is to lease you probably wouldn't do it. I'd expect them to tweak the cost when showing purchase vs lease to favor lease, too (companies get lease kick backs from banks).
This is also true when leasing an apartment, car, phone, software, etc. Large businesses make out when leasing by the tax category the money goes into having a favorable tax consequence; mere mortals usually don't get the same tax benefit.
When possible, a purchase generally yields a better long term financial result.
Not relevant for AZ, but once upon a time the cheapest way to heat homes was to purchase a diesel genset and sell the power back to the grid, but duct the cooling fans to heat your home. The grid payback paid for the fuel to generate the power - and the waste heat was essentially free heat for the house. Fuels prices make this a wash these days... but was a nice idea a few years ago for cold climes.
A shade tree or three was a fair way to help cut cooling costs. R-19 walls work better with the exterior shaded surface at 100 degrees than sunlit 150+ degrees (100-80=20 degrees where 150-80=70 degree diff); and it's even more effective if you have R-13 2x4 walls. Even looked at trellises and ivy... and a $100 tree is pretty cheap compared to a $20,000 panel array.
This is also true when leasing an apartment, car, phone, software, etc. Large businesses make out when leasing by the tax category the money goes into having a favorable tax consequence; mere mortals usually don't get the same tax benefit.
When possible, a purchase generally yields a better long term financial result.
Not relevant for AZ, but once upon a time the cheapest way to heat homes was to purchase a diesel genset and sell the power back to the grid, but duct the cooling fans to heat your home. The grid payback paid for the fuel to generate the power - and the waste heat was essentially free heat for the house. Fuels prices make this a wash these days... but was a nice idea a few years ago for cold climes.
A shade tree or three was a fair way to help cut cooling costs. R-19 walls work better with the exterior shaded surface at 100 degrees than sunlit 150+ degrees (100-80=20 degrees where 150-80=70 degree diff); and it's even more effective if you have R-13 2x4 walls. Even looked at trellises and ivy... and a $100 tree is pretty cheap compared to a $20,000 panel array.
re_guderian
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #58
Small update... Solar (either buy or lease) is on the back burner while I get my current usage under control, understood, and minimized. I've done the following.
1. Spent over 45 minutes figuring out the details of my APS bill. The rate plan details are buried 4+ layers deep on APS' website, in terms of per On-peak charge and then the demand and generation Kwh charge rates. Usage is easy to see. Bottom line, my bill this month was $60 in fixed costs/taxes/surcharges/fees, about $95 in Kwh charges, and about $98 based on the max 1 hour average on-peak Kw demand. Ok, so now I know what to go after (see #4). I'm on a rate plan that's been "frozen" by APS. I can only imaging it's in my best interests to keep it, though my on-peak hours are currently 9A-9P, v 12P-7P for the newer plans, but my current Kwh charges are lower on the old, "frozen" plan.
2. Bought a plug-in Watt meter to get a handle on my plug-in appliance usage. Strangely enough, things like my desktop computer which frequently was on 24 hours a day, pulls between 150 and 225 W. That's about $15/month. My second fridge in the garage pulls about the same when the compressor is running. So does my cable box and 70" TV plus sound bar.
3. My wife agrees with @LandCruiserPhil about lighting, but honestly, I have no idea how many Kwh I use in lights. So I got a Blue Line Power meter and strapped it onto my smart power meter. This way I can test usage for draws that are hard wired like lights, AC, water heater, ceiling fans (that my kids leave on), etc. etc. and find the pay back (if any) for switching to LED (absolutely hate CFL's) and/or auto shut-off switches. Or just flogging the kids until they do what they're supposed to, duh.
4. Reviewed the last 24 months of APS bills, and found out that my load controller has not been controlling any loads. Half my usage bill is determined by the peak 60 minute average Kw usage during the month. Load controller is supposed to cap that at 10 Kw, then sequentially shut off AC, water heater, then range (or some order of those) until usage goes down. That hadn't been happening. I had an Apollo 13 moment, as I opened up my Load Controller, and was greeted by an array of dip switches. To make matters worse, instead of just running 7 days a week, (there is no "weekend mode" on this antique), they had hard wired in a Micronta 63-889 7-day programmable timer from the early 80's it appears, to send power to the Load controller panel, so that it would only be controlling M-F, 9A-9P. When I unburied this piece and reviewed the programs, they were all 0's. Anyway, my max on-peak Kw had been up to 14 Kw, and consistently in the summer between 10 and 14. Capping this at 10 "should" save me $37/mo in winter, and up to $54/mo in summer. All for finding some ancient user manuals on the internet. I'm sure a more modern load controller would be in order. I know nothing about them, and what they cost. For the electrical geeks, I have a Pensar Load Master Micro Controller Model 3030.
So I've spent about $120 dollars already, but I should easily be able to knock ~$70/mo. off my bill with that small investment. In six months I'll already be ahead of the solar savings, with more to come.
Next up, another small investment in a thermal camera to see where I really need to focus on sealing up the house, windows, doors, and ducts. Planning on this one...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NYWAHHM...lid=34A2QKEOE9NKZ&coliid=I182BOD4H4CLA3&psc=1
Hopefully the learnings should make it pay for itself and drive down my cooling bill even more.
Replacing one of my AC units saved me on average about 100 bucks a month this summer compared to last summer. That unit cooled 2/3 of my house.
I thought about water heater insulation, but honestly, the outside of the unit is cool to the touch now, so not sure $25 worth of insulation will buy me anything in terms of savings. Unit is electric, and less than 1 year old. I did turn both t-stats down to 120, from the factory set 125. Still plenty hot, and both my dishwasher and washing machine have additional hot water heaters if desired. What do y'all know about timers for water heaters? Worth the money? My kids, though teenage girls, aren't too bad on the hot water.
1. Spent over 45 minutes figuring out the details of my APS bill. The rate plan details are buried 4+ layers deep on APS' website, in terms of per On-peak charge and then the demand and generation Kwh charge rates. Usage is easy to see. Bottom line, my bill this month was $60 in fixed costs/taxes/surcharges/fees, about $95 in Kwh charges, and about $98 based on the max 1 hour average on-peak Kw demand. Ok, so now I know what to go after (see #4). I'm on a rate plan that's been "frozen" by APS. I can only imaging it's in my best interests to keep it, though my on-peak hours are currently 9A-9P, v 12P-7P for the newer plans, but my current Kwh charges are lower on the old, "frozen" plan.
2. Bought a plug-in Watt meter to get a handle on my plug-in appliance usage. Strangely enough, things like my desktop computer which frequently was on 24 hours a day, pulls between 150 and 225 W. That's about $15/month.
My second fridge in the garage pulls about the same when the compressor is running. So does my cable box and 70" TV plus sound bar. 3. My wife agrees with @LandCruiserPhil about lighting, but honestly, I have no idea how many Kwh I use in lights. So I got a Blue Line Power meter and strapped it onto my smart power meter. This way I can test usage for draws that are hard wired like lights, AC, water heater, ceiling fans (that my kids leave on), etc. etc. and find the pay back (if any) for switching to LED (absolutely hate CFL's) and/or auto shut-off switches. Or just flogging the kids until they do what they're supposed to, duh.
4. Reviewed the last 24 months of APS bills, and found out that my load controller has not been controlling any loads. Half my usage bill is determined by the peak 60 minute average Kw usage during the month. Load controller is supposed to cap that at 10 Kw, then sequentially shut off AC, water heater, then range (or some order of those) until usage goes down. That hadn't been happening. I had an Apollo 13 moment, as I opened up my Load Controller, and was greeted by an array of dip switches.
To make matters worse, instead of just running 7 days a week, (there is no "weekend mode" on this antique), they had hard wired in a Micronta 63-889 7-day programmable timer from the early 80's it appears, to send power to the Load controller panel, so that it would only be controlling M-F, 9A-9P. When I unburied this piece and reviewed the programs, they were all 0's. Anyway, my max on-peak Kw had been up to 14 Kw, and consistently in the summer between 10 and 14. Capping this at 10 "should" save me $37/mo in winter, and up to $54/mo in summer. All for finding some ancient user manuals on the internet. I'm sure a more modern load controller would be in order. I know nothing about them, and what they cost. For the electrical geeks, I have a Pensar Load Master Micro Controller Model 3030. So I've spent about $120 dollars already, but I should easily be able to knock ~$70/mo. off my bill with that small investment. In six months I'll already be ahead of the solar savings, with more to come.
Next up, another small investment in a thermal camera to see where I really need to focus on sealing up the house, windows, doors, and ducts. Planning on this one...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NYWAHHM...lid=34A2QKEOE9NKZ&coliid=I182BOD4H4CLA3&psc=1
Hopefully the learnings should make it pay for itself and drive down my cooling bill even more.
Replacing one of my AC units saved me on average about 100 bucks a month this summer compared to last summer. That unit cooled 2/3 of my house.
I thought about water heater insulation, but honestly, the outside of the unit is cool to the touch now, so not sure $25 worth of insulation will buy me anything in terms of savings. Unit is electric, and less than 1 year old. I did turn both t-stats down to 120, from the factory set 125. Still plenty hot, and both my dishwasher and washing machine have additional hot water heaters if desired. What do y'all know about timers for water heaters? Worth the money? My kids, though teenage girls, aren't too bad on the hot water.
re_guderian
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #59
I did plant a few trees last summer, but they're on my fence line. My worst wall for exposure is 2 stories tall, and faces SSE, so gets early morning to mid afternoon summer sun. 2/3 of that wall is adjacent to concrete pad, with no chance for shade. I had some kind of cat=claw vine thingy that the PO let grow to cover the wall, but honestly the damage to the stucco, and intrusion into the attic, and harbor for birds, bugs, lizards and scorpions wasn't worth it. I'm sure it helped a little, but not worth the hassle.
Saddletramp
GOLD Star
I have the same fossil of a load controller. WPOS
