Rear brake build gone sideways. 1969 FJ55 (1 Viewer)

[Peters Moose]

original brakes had an issue of needing 3-4 pumps on the pedal to get them to work. Decided (rather stupidly) to update the brake system to modern standards/safety for more reliable driving.
First step was the front axle. Updated to a '79-'85 mini truck. Added a Wilwood tandom cylinder too. Because the old system was a single circuit 9mm fittings, I replaced with really nice 3/16 Ni-Cop tubing and made my own ends.

The front calipers work great on their own. (With the rear output plugged) Because all four rear cylinders were beyond repair, I opted to go with '71+ newer cylinders and again make most of my own lines. After bleeding more than a gallon of fluid thru the system, the pedal still travels all the way to the floor.
M/C has the correct prop-valve setup.
Adjusted all four rear cylinders to just dragging and backed a few clicks.
Ordered cylinders from a land cruiser place but they sold me the Chinese knock offs.

I may just stick with running on the front brakes only as it still better than having to pump the brakes in hopes the rears connect. (I have a feeling that's what most do anyway) besides after throwing away 600 bucks at this, maybe it's time to move on to other projects that need to be done.
If anybody has done this on a 60's FJ with any success, I would be curious as to what worked.
Thanks for any ideas you may have.

View attachment 1306557

 

[Poser]

I may just stick with running on the front brakes only as it still better than having to pump the brakes in hopes the rears connect. (I have a feeling that's what most do anyway)

Most properly bleed and adjust their brakes.

 

[Peters Moose]

Adjusted by getting contact and backing off 4 clicks. (As per the Haynes manual)
I also adjusted to where both wheels had slight drag. Same scenario.
I then adjusted to full drag and again same thing. Full pedal to the floor.

No fluid loss and also inspected cylinders-All dry.
So as I understand I am properly adjusted. However 3 pumps on the pedal is not acceptable.

So what am I not doing that most people do is my question.

 

[SKULLYOTA]

might still have air somewhere. and why no booster?

 

[3_puppies]

shouldn't the lines be steel?

is the bore of the master the correct size?

 

[B y r o n]

When bleeding the brake system what order did you use? Did you bench bleed the master?

 

[Peters Moose]

Most properly bleed and adjust their brakes.

see above

might still have air somewhere. and why no booster?

Booster won't fit. There's only about an inch of clearance. Also have run more than a gallon of fluid thru the system.

shouldn't the lines be steel?
is the bore of the master the correct size?

M/C per ManaFre. If this is a bad option, hopefully can install what others use.
Ni-Cop is a great alternative to steel especially when installing in a completed vehicle. Lots of racers use this too. More bendable when your not doing a frame off resto.

 

[bikersmurf]

Most use a spacer and run a booster. I'd convert the rear to discs... and use an 80 series booster.

I suspect you're having the same problem that many have had and that the bleeder hole isn't at the highest point... they've resolved this issue by rotating the cylinder to get the air out and then bolting things up.

Or, the M/C has too small a bore and the brakes don't far enough. If you're going to drive it you'll need to figure out what's going on and fix it.

 

[snaggletto]

If the master is new, it must be rid of air itself before you can bleed the rest of the system. Make a line from each output to go up and then back down into each reservoir. Make sure the ends stay covered with fluid and pump until no more air bubbles. Then hook up the real lines and re-bleed the rest of the system.

Poser, replied above, has disc brake conversion parts for the rear. I highly recommend his parts. I did my 40 rear discs a few years ago and haven't regretted it at all.

 

[Captn Conch]

Booster not necessary, DC'd mine when I converted to full discs 4 yr ago. I could not get mine bled properly no matter what I did. Took it to my local garage they fixed it real quick, cost was minimal. Hind sight is great but discs on the back (after bleeding) are the ticket. Screw those weak link cylinders, If you keep your vehicle forever, 4-8-10 years down the road they will not need adjustment or replacement and won't leak on the tires...Just fluid "re-nurishment" once in a great while, disc pads once in blue moon (depending on usage.,) and a long term feeling of safety and reliability.

 

[Peters Moose]

Most use a spacer and run a booster. I'd convert the rear to discs... and use an 80 series booster.
I suspect you're having the same problem that many have had and that the bleeder hole isn't at the highest point... they've resolved this issue by rotating the cylinder to get the air out and then bolting things up.

Or, the M/C has too small a bore and the brakes don't far enough. If you're going to drive it you'll need to figure out what's going on and fix it.

Howdy bikersmurf-However booster will not fit due to the carb being in the way. I do have a spacer installed that hooks up to the new Wilwood M/C. (This setup pictured was not the original from '69) This M/C seemed to be a popular fix as many others said it worked well. Of course it may just be shills for Wilwood in which case, I got suckered into it.

If the master is new, it must be rid of air itself before you can bleed the rest of the system. Make a line from each output to go up and then back down into each reservoir. Make sure the ends stay covered with fluid and pump until no more air bubbles. Then hook up the real lines and re-bleed the rest of the system.

Poser, replied above, has disc brake conversion parts for the rear. I highly recommend his parts. I did my 40 rear discs a few years ago and haven't regretted it at all.

Hi snag.. Nothing mentioned about a rear disc setup available above. (Just bleed it right) Yes I did bleed the Master and in fact, the front brakes work great on their own. So part of the system is working just fine. After 6 quarts all told going thru the rears I would have thought I should be good. I know there is an easy answer for this right in front of me, just can't seem to locate it.

Booster not necessary, DC'd mine when I converted to full discs 4 yr ago. I could not get mine bled properly no matter what I did. Took it to my local garage they fixed it real quick, cost was minimal. Hind sight is great but discs on the back (after bleeding) are the ticket. Screw those weak link cylinders, If you keep your vehicle forever, 4-8-10 years down the road they will not need adjustment or replacement and won't leak on the tires...Just fluid "re-nurishment" once in a great while, disc pads once in blue moon (depending on usage.,) and a long term feeling of safety and reliability.

So if I am reading your reply correctly, you still had bleeding issues after you went all disc?? Yikes I would be making things worse if I did that it sounds. Also my understanding that on pre 1970 cruisers, (because of the back plate behind the shoes) there is no rear disc option out there. (At least not in my research-all disc swaps were post '70 that I found) I totally agree with you on the discs... But if the bleeding issues are still there as when I want to change the brake fluid out, I'm not sure if that's a good fix.
Would be curious if you changed out your M/C or kept the old one in there. As well as if you have to keep pumping the pedal to get full contact all around for each stop. Thanks a ton for the reply Capt!! Really good info.

 

[bikersmurf]

Have you been using a vacuum bleeder or having someone press the brake & then opening the bleeder method?

As much as I like the Vacuum method, sometimes it doesn't get all the air out... other times it works wonders.

I'd also try tightening the adjusters all the way down, bleeding the brakes and then seeing how it feels. The only other options would be faulty hardware... but being all new it seems less likely, and if air is getting in fluid would likely get out.

 

[Peters Moose]

Have you been using a vacuum bleeder or having someone press the brake & then opening the bleeder method?
As much as I like the Vacuum method, sometimes it doesn't get all the air out... other times it works wonders.
I'd also try tightening the adjusters all the way down, bleeding the brakes and then seeing how it feels. The only other options would be faulty hardware... but being all new it seems less likely, and it air is getting fluid would likely get out.

Thanks biker.. I am doing both the two person method as well as the single person method using a bottle with fluid and pumping the brakes to get the air out. (latter method per Toyota)
I also adjusted all four cylinders sung to the drums but had exact same issue. There has to be something obvious here that I am missing.

The only other item not changed out is the original (1969) three way connector/breather on the passenger side axle. I am trying to locate the data on this piece... Is it a simple 3-way connector?? Or is it a modified valve of some kind that is prohibiting fluid flow. (ie. designed to work only with the original single circuit master...) As of now-That is the only mystery left in this system.

Thanks again for the reply!

 

[YukonCruisers]

I just went through this over the weekend with my stock systems and new master and cylinders - you are chasing air. I feel the frustration, can't tell you how much fluid I went through. In the end I suspect it was that I didn't fully bench bleed my master. Suggest you start there (per direction above), then, for me at least, the one man system with a hose and a bottle worked well for flushing - I pumped at least one and a half reservoirs through each of the 4 bleeder valves (ensuring it never went dry). Good luck

 

[Peters Moose]

Thanks Calgary... Will run thru the M/C again and see if I can't find the air in the system.

 

[MOTOV8R]

Do you have the proper residual valve installed for the rear brakes?

Typical Brake System Configurations

 

[B y r o n]

Howdy bikersmurf-However booster will not fit due to the carb being in the way. I do have a spacer installed that hooks up to the new Wilwood M/C. (This setup pictured was not the original from '69) This M/C seemed to be a popular fix as many others said it worked well. Of course it may just be shills for Wilwood in which case, I got suckered into it. . . .

That really isn't a spacer it is an adapter.

 

[cult45]

Is it just me or does your rear hardline [out of the MC] do a hair pin turn? I just converted my 1970 FJ45 to a dual circuit using all Toyota hardware. I retained drums x 4, but am happy. First thing I'd do is slow down and walk away. Do some research and let it sink in. Gain a more thorough understanding, then come back and apply your new knowledge. The second thing I'd do is rig up a tube and a container to catch all that fluid out of the bleeders. Thirdly I'd read the FAQ section on mini-truck braking upgrades and make sure I have the appropriate cylinder size in that master for your discs and drums. Then after all that I'd bench bleed the master, then bleed it all again starting from the furthest point from the MC. Failing all that ship it to a brake shop

 

[Peters Moose]

Is it just me or does your rear hardline [out of the MC] do a hair pin turn? I just converted my 1970 FJ45 to a dual circuit using all Toyota hardware. I retained drums x 4, but am happy. First thing I'd do is slow down and walk away. Do some research and let it sink in. Gain a more thorough understanding, then come back and apply your new knowledge. The second thing I'd do is rig up a tube and a container to catch all that fluid out of the bleeders. Thirdly I'd read the FAQ section on mini-truck braking upgrades and make sure I have the appropriate cylinder size in that master for your discs and drums. Then after all that I'd bench bleed the master, then bleed it all again starting from the furthest point from the MC. Failing all that ship it to a brake shop

Thanks Cult... Yes will do a little more looking into it and see what better option is out there that actually works real world for somebody else with a 60's rig. And on the fluid, (I don't let it run into the street/ground) I use a tight plug fitting that I got with a popular bleeder kit and I run that thru a hose and into a large collection bottle. I've recycled a lot of brake fluid these past several weeks!
Thanks again for the info!!

 

[scrapdaddy]

Sounds like to me, the rear circuit isn't working right in the master. I had a brand new clutch master from Toyota, not pump up, couldn't purge the air out. I bought another and worked fine.