Radiant hydronic gurus - Knight or Triangle Tube mod/con (1 Viewer)

[haystax]

Keystone-

Thanks for your reply. You are correct about the flowrate and head loss, I am now at 8.7gpm and 15.5 ft for the entire system and water temps of 126* and 78* based on the ADS calcs.

I have added the S/R tubing into the design and only one manifold is located outside of the boiler room.

I found the wiring and piping schematics in the ADS software and that helps tremendously. I want to make this as simple and reliable as I can. I will probably use the Uponor zone valves and controls but I am interested in the new variable delta T circs from Taco.

I have posted on The Wall - TT not pumping Away? is my thread where I have also posted the pdf of the Warmboard zones.

I realize the input vs output rating, however I am a bit confused about how much to actually figure for derating for altitude with a forced air combustion system. Isn't that the same as putting a turbo on your engine - gets you back to sea level? I am at 6000' and will be using LP for the fuel source. Do these factors necessitate a 110 in your opinion? Have you installed any of these boilers at comparable elevations?

Thanks!

 

[keystone]

boiler sizing

I have read that post,

Do you have your design delta T @ 10 - 15 - or 20 for the posted flow rates? I would recommend designing for around 15 you wont notice the difference on the floor and your head pressure and flow requirements will drop to the range of the less expensive pump. You wont need the the variable delta pumps from taco, unless you really want them, you are only dealing with 10-12 ft of head and 9 GPM with a draw of only .75 amps and 87 watts. here is a link to a pump chart. http://www.secsupply.com/grundfos_flowUPS15-58.pdf If you design for the 15 - 20 degree delta t what will happen is when all valves are open your system will operate at the design flow and delta T, As valves begin to close the head and flow rates will increase on the remaining open zones decreasing your delta T to around your preferred 8-10 delta T. In addition to less parts and exspense by designing with the higher delta T your boiler will be operating within a higher efficiency range with the cooler return water temps.

As for boiler deration the TPS60 will output around 50k condensing return water temperatures at full input and modulate down to 14k, and the TPS110 will output around 93k condensing and modulate down to 25k. For deration of most condensing boilers you multiply the efficiency of the boiler and BTU input and then for the altitude you will reduce the output by 2% - 3% for most condensing boilers. If it is atmospheric natural draft or non forced draft you will need to derate by 4% most manufactures will allow the first 2000 ft before deration for altitude.

If you decide to go with the TPS110 or similar BTU boiler and your flowrate is 9GPM at FULL fire the return water will be 20 Degrees cooler when all zones are calling and this may be worth it to you to use the Taco pump allowing for a larger pump on the heating system and not require the use of a DPBV. (Differential Pressure Bypass Valve) and a larger Grundfos 26-99FC to achieve the lower System Delta T's at full fire. In my opinion it is not necessary. Remember your design only requires 45k at design temperatures. Provided your insulation and r values are keyed correctly in the software for each floor. What is the total BTU requirement of your smallest zone? Can the boiler modulate that low? What is that load during the shoulder seasons?(Change the outdoor temperature to say 38 degrees or whatever your avg outdoor temperature is) If the boiler cant modulate that low it will begin to cycle, ideally you dont want the boiler to turn off and on more than two or three times at most per hour. Premature wear and tear on parts will occur! Dont forget about the Peerless Purefire Boiler..... They have an 80K.

Side note when calculating your head loss for the manifolds make sure you are adjusting the leader lengths(non heating tube, try and limit this tube as much as possible) from the manifolds to the room or space(active heating tubes) In total you have the supply and return to the manifold, leader or supply lines from the manifold to the area being heated and then lastly the loops in the area themsleves a total of 3 calculations for head loss.

You may be beginning to understand why a good heating profesional charges what they do? I have only covered the basics to a good design, which should be enough to get you where you need to be.

 

[haystax]

Keystone-

By adjusting the design to a 15* Delta T I end up with 6gpm and 6.8 ft total head loss.

With a design temp of 38* the total radiant load is 15,091 and total project heat loss is 18,667btu/hr

I don't believe the 110 is able to modulate to this level, let alone to a single zone call. This is what led me to question what the "good heating professionals" had to say. I am pretty well convinced that the 110 is too big and 140 that was suggested is WAY too big.

Leader lengths are in design, I have used the head loss calculator included in the ADS program to second check some of the figures.

Thanks for your help. I will look into the Peerless product but i have pretty much decided I don't need the 110. I am sure there are radiant professionals that do much more due diligence in designing a system than those who I have contacted. Two of the companies let the supply house do the calculations and don't even ask for prints to do a heat loss calc off of. The other companies are reluctant to design and warranty a system since I am so far away from their shops they don't feel comfortable providing service down the road.

I think I have a sound basic understanding of the system and I want to keep it as simple as possible. The Grundfos 15-58 looks ideal and they are much more reasonably priced than the variables from Taco.

Thanks for your input, it is appreciated!

 

[keystone]

Sounds like your getting there,

Unfortunately there are lots of plumbers and hvac profesionals getting into the hydronic heating business without the proper training and exp to be on their own. They often fall under the category of more is better or at least safe since they arnt sure what the project really needs to have. At this point it sounds like you know more about radiant heating principles than the contractors you have contacted in your area do. Although except for the one it sounds like they are in the ballpark. Yes, the systems will probably work, and often more comfortably simply due to the nature of radiant heating, but at the expense of monthy utility bills, higher up front costs, balancing of temperatures, and increased maintanance of equipment. Thankfully for the most part radiant is very forgiving. Although when combining with DHW on large projects you will find you are sizing for the DHW loads and not the heating. 10 - 25 GPM Master Shower water falls can drain a standard 120 gal. tank in minutes, thats another story.

As you can see by adjusting the delta T just slightly made a huge difference on the pump sizing and power requirements of the system, and the grundfos 15-58FC will handle the flow beautifuly somewhere inbetween a 10 and 15 degree delta T at full load, and reducing your return water to 116 degrees at design will ensure your system will be operating at at least 95 percent efficiency (condensing boiler) and greater throughout the heating season. A win win... after you set your outdoor reset curves it just gets better. The goal is that the boiler idles at low fire and the pumps run most of the day for less than the cost of leaving a light on.

Even if you did use the 110 you would find that it wouldnt be terrible, Depending on your avg outdoor winter temps, and your DHW recovery would be faster. The 140 is not recommended without a buffer tank due to excessive cycling. I would recommend a 80kbtu boiler based on what you have reported if i were designing the system, BUT would consider the 110 if DHW usage was high enough to merit its use, and use 1 of three boilers. Peerless Purefire, Hamilton Evo(220v), Triangle Prestige. Each having their own benefits, although there are others worth considering if they are what are available locally. Its almost always better if the servicing techs are familiar with the boiler and parts are available.

That should pretty much sum it up, take a look at the drawing I uploaded it will help you in the piping of the boiler, you do have a two temp system which complicates things slightly for the wiring and piping but you should be able to figure it out. If you use the 15-58FC you wont have to worry about check valves. Uponor/Wirsbo makes nice controls, so does Taco and Tekmar. Its more or less preference and availability. Uponor uses alot of Tekmar in its offering with similar features, the multifunction and Network controls. Taco offers simplicity, Tekmar offers features and TN4

Dont cheap out on the manifolds and tubing stay with a known manufacture such as Uponor,Viega,Zurn or a small company you probably never heard of Hydropex but under a new name after ASHRAE in January will become very well known. Done properly your heating system will provide you and future generations a safe, reliable, efficient, healthy, and comfortable heating system for years to come. When it comes to heating you can pay now or pay later but you always pay you might as well be healthy and comfortable.

Make sure and use a quality insulation below slab preferably at least 1" thick. Insulate between your floors to keep the heat where you want it otherwise it will be a nightmare to control.

Dont forget the garage, it doesnt cost that much more and it makes working on the projects so much easier. With the 80k BTU boiler, providing your garage isnt every mans, dream you would have plenty of heat available.

 

[tonkota]

Dont forget the garage, it doesnt cost that much more and it makes working on the projects so much easier. With the 80k BTU boiler, providing your garage isnt every mans, dream you would have plenty of heat available.

Ditto!

I've designed radiant floor heating systems, but I haven't installed one until this spring (2009) when we will put it in my brothers 36 x 48 shop. It has 16' ceiling heights and this radiant will be better at heating where the work is going to be done.

Take some pics too please.

 

[haystax]

Keystone -

Thanks for the input, I can't find your attachments. Probably because you don't have a star or enough posts here. Please PM or email me the drawings if you get a chance. You also have mail

Where are you located? East Coast I assume?

Thanks again, looks like the project is officially on hold until we return from our vacation. By then maybe I will have some more info locally but I doubt it. Have a happy Holiday!

 

[haystax]

Ditto!

I've designed radiant floor heating systems, but I haven't installed one until this spring (2009) when we will put it in my brothers 36 x 48 shop. It has 16' ceiling heights and this radiant will be better at heating where the work is going to be done.

Take some pics too please.

Well the garage was built before the house, didn't put any tubing in the floor and I kinda regret it but not really. I've got a used Reznor heater lined up and I do most of my mechanic work in our farm shop. Garage is mostly for the Jetta and 4Runner and all our son's junk - you know, typical garage stuff.

I wish we had the hot water in our 60x80' farm shop, but I was only three when it was built so no input there

A good friend has warm water at his place, ~78* out of the well. He put hose in his shop floor and just turns a valve and his well water heats the shop. Can't beat that for simplicity!

 

[tonkota]

Radiant and Hydronics <<<<<More Info (as if you didn't have enough)

How is this project going?

 

[Landpimp]

my folks use Munchin(like the little people) boilers for there hot water and infloor readiant heat, been very nice units

 

[Toyo FJ40]

my folks use Munchin(like the little people) boilers for there hot water and infloor readiant heat, been very nice units

I just finished a job using the Peerless Pinnacle Boiler which is the same boiler as the Munchin. I liked the boiler, It's a stainless steel condensing boiler thats 93% AFUE. The one I used modulated from 66,000 btus to 183,000. The whole boiler is only like 18"x18"x24"


Kevin

 

[haystax]

Radiant and Hydronics <<<<<More Info (as if you didn't have enough)

How is this project going?

Well, it stalled out because we spent January in Australia and haven't got going again.

Spent the last couple weeks working on a design with the Triangle Tube Solo 110 and a Wilo ECO circulator.

Just waiting for quotes on these components now that I have a solid design objective.

Hopefully, this will be an ideal setup with the ECM circ modulating based on zone flow requirements and the boiler then modulating the water temps base on the flows. Decided to let the slab get higher temp water and let the wirsbo modulating T-stat do its job to help regulate the basement flows.

Should get the stuff ordered today or tomorrow, hopefully begin install in week to ten days. Its been an ordeal but I'm glad i held off and discovered the Wilo pumps.

heatinghelp.com is a great resource.

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[poose]

Rather than trying to run 1 pump to feed domestic and heating isolate your zones, Heat is 1 pump GR26-99, domestic is another GR26-99, and your Primary pump use the 15-56 you have on Low for your Primary loop, This pic is a basic 4 zone no domestic you would tie your domestic in prior to your loop S and R not from the loop unless you were using a mixing valve before your heat zones and running a primary loop.

 

[izula]

I've designed and installed quite a few radiant heat systems in conjunction with solar thermal systems. My boiler of choice is the Triangle Tube Solo 110, but I have not used a propane unit. I use their indirect tanks as well (Smart60 up to Smart120). If I had hydronic heating (and I wish I did...) I would use either the Triangle Tube units or Buderus. I'm more comfortable with TT and they are less expensive, so I'd probably just use the TT...

As far as zone valves vs. circulators vs. injection, let me say that the injection manifold works very well with a solar thermal system and will allow you to supply higher temp fluid to certain zones. That means that if you have some zones calling for 120F at your design temperature, and others at 90F, you would use zone valves or circulators for the 120F zones and drive the lower temp zones off the injection manifold. The outdoor reset will modulate both curves, so you will not be generating more heat than you need. You would have to do some fine tuning with zone flow, but overall you'll have a relatively simple but flexible system that will also accommodate solar thermal when you get around to that.

Lastly, the modulating, condensing boilers are only 95+% efficient below 140F (lower is better for the most part) where exhaust gases can condense. You indicated earlier in the thread that you wanted your domestic hot water (DHW) around 140F and then tempered or mixed back to 120F... I would stick to 120F and not drive the boiler out of the 'efficiency sweet spot', especially with propane. The TT Solo 110 also has outdoor reset capability. If you go for the injection mixing, it is beneficial for the injection control to have outdoor reset as well.

I'm not very good with links so PM me and I'll email you a book to help you decide your zone control. Just to be sure, I don't sell any of this equipment. I only use it. Good luck.

 

[BadgerMN]

The first thing to do is secure a computer generated heat load analysis. Those who offer one without being asked distinguish themselves significantly.

You can learn how to choose a contractor at badgerboilerservice.com/contractor.aspx]Choosing a Contractor

There are many good ModCon boilers on the market (7 boast 95% AFUE or higher) but proper sizing and and system design is more important than boiler, pumps or zone valves.

I always put the radiant floor tubing in the slab. It is cheap and the next guy will pay for it even if you don't hook it up.

MA