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r-12

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by PHAEDRUS, May 20, 2003.

  1. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    Hey all,
    any oof you old school guys still running r-12 in your ac condensor? The mechanic at teh shop where I work advised me there is a kit to convert any r-12 system to 134, different fittings and some kind of oil but I am a little sketchy of messing with a good thing. I am alos a little hesitant to keep dumping $80 a pound worht of r12 every year.
    Dave :beer:
     
  2. moralien

    moralien

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    I would think that if you need to have it recharged every year than you you may have in open in the system. ??? FWIW I would just switch it to the 134 and be done with it. Here in the states it's kinda a catch 22. We can still manufacture the 12 as well as remanufacture it but it is all exported. The stuff that is sold has to be imported back into the states. :dunno:
     
  3. Desertmaster

    Desertmaster

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    Phaedrus,

    In Massachusetts it is the law to convert to the 134 if you want to re-cahrge the system.

    I do not know where you live but I belive you can not re-charge the system with R12 anymore (assuming), it must be the 134 due to the the ozone layer deterioration law.

    Keep in mind it will take the system a bit more time to cool to the desired temp. as this is one of the bad criteria's about the 134.

    I had my wife's old Camry converted 1 year ago prior to selling it and they had to add the new fittings also, it took them 1/2 hour to do the whole job. I would assume same amount of time for the LC.

    Hope this helps

    Thanks

    Al
     
  4. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    I am in the states, I work for a body shop till next week so r- 134 is free. the system will hold a vacuum fine (Tested for 1/2 hour on machine) but wont stay going that long. Just curiuos if toyota says its a nono.
    Dave :beer:
     
  5. Eduardo96FZJ80

    Eduardo96FZJ80

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    Nick,
    I read an article a while back, where R-12 has become one of the top five smuggled (sp) "products" from our neighbors to the south :eek:
    And to think that John Delorean (sp) thought cocaine was profitable!
    Eduardo
     
  6. moralien

    moralien

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    Eduardo, it would not suprise me one bit. Steal it here, use the same truck you just used to smuggle 100 illeagels from there, go back into Mexico then sell it back to us on the cheap. ::)
     
  7. Eduardo96FZJ80

    Eduardo96FZJ80

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    [
    Keep in mind it will take the system a bit more time to cool to the desired temp. as this is one of the bad criteria's about the 134.


    Al,
    My A/C seems to cool just fine while driving. But when @ idle, it seems like there is very little cooling? Is this also a 134 trait?
    Eduardo
     
  8. Eduardo96FZJ80

    Eduardo96FZJ80

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    Nick,
    And all this is supposed to help the "Ozone" ??
    Man am I confused?? ??? ???
    Eduardo
     
  9. Desertmaster

    Desertmaster

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    Eduardo96FZJ80,

    If you re-charged the LC system with the 134 the answer is yes, this is the same issue that we incountered with camry conversion, when you turned on the system (A/C) it took like 3-4 minutes to get really cool then if you are in traffic Bumber to Bumber it did not keep the cabin as cool, only on cruising highway speeds.

    Note: I have not made the conversion on my truck yet, but once I have to, I will check for leaks in the syetm then I will have to convert to the 134.


    Hope this helps.

    Al
     
  10. moralien

    moralien

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    It will not cool the system as quickly because the 12 has a different head pressure. Just because it takes a little longer to get frigid does not necessarily mean that it will not get your cabin as cold.

    As far as the other thing goes I'm confused too. It is illegal to vent any refrigerant into the atmosphere. No matter what line of work you are in. Residential, auto, etc, etc. Whenever you have to recharge a system all of the old refrigerant it basically evacuated into a tank that is under vacuum. So assuming you take your truck to a reputable place and there is no open in the system then there should be no introduction of any bad greenhouse gas. This is where the tricky part comes in. If you have R12 and your system is good it can be recycled. But we also still manufacture the stuff new. I don't really understand how the EPA controls all this. I do now that a 25 pound bottle of R12 is worth around 600 bucks. It's a liquid/vapor gold...
    Go figure :dunno:
     
  11. Desertmaster

    Desertmaster

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    Moralien,

    Just spoke with a friend who is familiar with the state laws in MA, he said if your car/truck AC system needs to be recharged it must be charged with the 134 stuff only, if a shop that is not doing so they will loose their license to operate in MA, he is also looking into wheather this is a federal or a state by state law, keep in mind that MA & CA has the worst ozone layer deterioration in the world and that is why the strick laws are in place, also he mentioned that the R-12 has more damage on the ozone layer than the 134 if it ever gets released to the atmosphere due to leake or some human error.

    Sorry about not being clear, I do not calim that I know everything, just thought I pass the info that I know to a degree to some one who is asking.


    Thanks

    Al
     
  12. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    ok I have opened a can of worms here.
    The r-12 is still produced and legal to use in the us by federal guidelines. it must be evacuated into an approred container to prevent release into the atmosphere. not a problem I have a machine designed to do just that. now back to the original question has anyone converted to 134 in a crusier?? I cant imagine any problems but jsut checking for horror stories. as far as the 134 vs 12 temperature 12 will cool to 56 degrees F and 134 will only cool to about 62 degrees F. that is the fundemental difference.
    thanks all
    Dave :beer:
     
  13. Seminole

    Seminole

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    Just took mine in yesterday, I asked about canversion to 134 but the advice given was don't mess with the 134 if you don't have too. Down here, you need every bit of cooling power you can get until November. No laws down here that call for mandatory conversion. The cheapest (parts) for conversion I saw was $80(couple of fittings and a Drier). Anybody ever replace the evaporator assy in one of these? Mines about to go and its already 95+ daily.
     
  14. cruiserman

    cruiserman

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    In my experience R134a does not work as well in a converted, R12 system. I would not convert if I didn't have to, and I would go back to R12 if I had my druthers.

    If MA is forcing you to convert, consider making a side trip to a shop in the live free or die state.
     
  15. Hltoppr

    Hltoppr SILVER Star

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    Dave, my 1992 was converted to R134a by the PO.  No problems with cooling here, even down in Phoenix.  

    -H-

    Although I haven't tried it in "Bumber to Bumber" traffic....gotta watch those bumbers....

    Just :banana: :banana: with ya Al.
     
  16. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    thanks topper,
    that was what I was wanting to hear. I will be moving to washington (bellingham) at teh end of next week so no more free acess to my mechanics really nice tools. want to get it done before I leave if I am going to.
    thanks all for the response.
    Dave :beer: :beer:
     
  17. Desertmaster

    Desertmaster

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    Cruiserman, I will consider your thought if I have to re-charge the system, although I have to look into RI, CT, NH & ME.

    Although they all considered to be New England States and under the lousey ozone layer, I will see if one of the those states does not have the new law in place yet so I can re-charge the system with the R-12.

    Thanks for the tip.

    Al
     
  18. Jim_Chow

    Jim_Chow

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    One A/C shop I spoke to advised against converting R12 to R134a. The R12 system is designed to work at a lower pressure than R134a. Eventhough you replace the seals/o-rings, the compressor is under more stress. Best would be to install a R134a system from a different vehicle. In CA R12 goes for around $50-75/lb, most of it being tax. I heard there is virtually no tax in Nevada on R12. Not sure about AZ, where I'm moving to, but I know it can't cost more than CA...nothing does, except maybe NYS. I think the easiest way is to go to Mexico (TJ) and find an auto parts store and bring some R12 back, or if you're more daring, just take your vehicle to a Mexican auto shop and have them recharge it for ya!
     
  19. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Jim Chow,
    We recently had this discussion on our local list. We're about 5 hrs north of Juarez. One of our local members is a US Customs agent and he told us they are looking for R12 smugglers and they will prosecute.

    I won't let many mechanics touch my Cruiser; certainly not an unknown one from a Mexican border town. &nbsp:Don't take this the wrong way as it's not meant to be demeaning toward Hispanics or people that live and work in border towns. I'm the same way about the guy with the Harley Davidson tatoos and no teeth that runs the shop down the street. (Oh darn, now I've insulted someone else.... better quit while I'm ahead.)

    -B-
     
  20. Junk

    Junk

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    Not disagreeing with B, but yeah B, saw that post. It's a shame in this current situation we have folks manning the borders to do this vs something actually helpfull. :dunno: