May24 - Table Mesa = Ticket, ARS13-1302(B) - Trespass w/o Trust Land Permit (1 Viewer)

[murf]

Yes, like the guy (from what Tom told me the other day) in the vehicle right before he got stopped, one of the passengers ran into the nearby wash to get away from the cops. Evidently with an open warrant I would guess? That guy didn't have to pay, but Tom who has a Tonto pass - in an effort to do "the right thing" and who is the farthest thing from a law breaker - gets this treatment

 

[LongDuck]

Here's the rest of that guy's story (as told to us while we were being ticketed!);

Apparently, about 30min before we came down the trail in my LandCruiser the same Sheriff's Deputies pulled up on 3 guys in a truck also on State Trust Land. One of the guys in that truck ran off into the wash, and when the Sheriff asked where that guy was going he was told the guy had to take a dump. The officers waited awhile, then started down into the wash after him but he was long gone. Keep in mind that we were 4 miles from I-17 and you all know that's pretty rugged country. While it's not dead of summer here yet, I wouldn't want to be wandering around out there for very long without water.

The Deputies were telling us that they were waiting for the guy to come out of the wash back near I-17 so his buddies (who were ticketed, too) could pick him up - at which time they hoped to run him for warrants. Which is why I think they asked ME to follow them back to I-17 next to the ranch so they could wait for the guy to come out... It might also explain why they were slinging AR15's, because they don't know why the guy ran off into the brush or if he was armed.

Anyway, State Trust Land Permit arrived via mail today and I confirmed that my buddy received his today, too. We're planning to go to court with our hats (and permits) in hand and ask for leniency.

Along that line - I looked at the calendar and the next CSC Club Meeting is the Friday before my court date. Would the club be interested in me presenting the circumstances as I've related here along with handing out the forms for State Trust Land Permits? I wouldn't want anybody else to get in trouble, and I might also mention this to the Justice of the Peace that I disseminated the information to a 4x4 club to inform them about the legalities of State Trust Land.

 

[DSRTRDR]

it takes just about 3 minutes to get the damn permit at the State Land Department building downtown, but you have to go there in person (there's ample parking behind the building - which they do not show in their online map ) - and use check or cash - credit cards not accepted - just walk up to the ground floor receptionist . . .

when I asked why they couldn't do this on-line, like, with PayPal, the answer I got was: "this is not how they think around here" and "I don't make decisions" in one of the most frustrated tone of voice I have heard in a long time I still can't decide whether I should be pitying the employee or the State of Arizona

 

[Saddletramp]

I may have to attend that meeting. Tom, did you also have a valid AZ hunting license?

 

[GWcruiser]

"taking wildlife" I wonder if one needs said wildlife alive / or / dead on said person / perpetrator for that clause to be in effect.

 

[Living in the Past]

If you have wildlife I believe is needs to be dead. Don't believe it is legal to transport them alive without some kind of special permit. A 22 rim fire and say your hunting rabbits is all that is need. Since it is called hunting and not getting you don have to one to be hunting. Been turkey hunting years and never brought one home. I was still legally hunting.

 

[LongDuck]

Saddletramp: I didn't have a valid 2014 Hunting License as I typically get one at the end of summer for Dove/Quail season or any fishing trips as they come up (combined resident hunt/fish).

Every year I read the AZ Game & Fish Regulations booklets they have at sporting goods stores so I know if any rules changed and game you take has to be dead - it's strictly illegal to transport any injured or live game animal.

 

[BrotherRob]

The "I'm hunting" excuse may not fly if shooting restrictions are in effect.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I have not been very happy with the SLT department since I went down in person to find the ruling on where and when a permit is required and what the permit monies were used for. Even though I did not agree with over 1/2 of the permit money was going to educating law enforcement I still support SLT and purchase a permit. Yes they make it a PIA to get, but every little bit helps in keeping our land open. To use Im hunting (when not) is just a lame and abuse the rights as a hunter IMO. Pay the $15 and enjoy the hassle free use of the land while you still can.

Sorry LongDuck on your experience my hopes and guess it will thrown out in court.

I also support and feel as CSC members you should also purchase an annual Tonto National Forest Pass also if you are not able to participate in programs associated with Tonto National Forest like AZ State Parks-OHV Ambassador Program or Tonto Recreation Alliance. Permits fees go directly to help in keeping our land open along with participation in the programs above.

 

[Saddletramp]

I agree with you Phil, the permit should be purchased. Given the ease of getting a hunting license versus getting the State Trust Land permit it would seem that a compromise of allowing the same outlets to sell both. Possibly making them more easily accessible along with raising awareness could benefit us all.

 

[DSRTRDR]

the Annual Tonto Pass is only available/valid if you also have the interagency pass - if you don't, you have to get the daily Tonto hangtags

 

[murf]

Got my state trust permit in the mail Friday

 

[JeremyM]

Related:

When I applied for my Trust Lands permit some months back, I was curious about the permit language and asked for clarification. Specifically about passengers: if the passenger is family, they do not need a permit as long as the driver has one. But, if said passenger is NOT immediate family, they are also required to have their own permit with them.

Oddly enough I got a different answer when I got my family permit. That said, the faq on the Land Dept website says specifically they can't answer questions about what 'family unit' means.

Q. What is a Family Permit?
A. A family permit extends the same privileges and responsibilities as the individual recreation permit, but includes a family unit of two (2) adults and children under the age of 18 years.

Note: The criterion for a family permit is defined by statute; legal questions regarding this statute cannot be answered by Department staff.

 

[GWcruiser]

Oddly enough I got a different answer when I got my family permit. That said, the faq on the Land Dept website says specifically they can't answer questions about what 'family unit' means.

Q. What is a Family Permit?
A. A family permit extends the same privileges and responsibilities as the individual recreation permit, but includes a family unit of two (2) adults and children under the age of 18 years.

Note: The criterion for a family permit is defined by statute; legal questions regarding this statute cannot be answered by Department staff.

I must have purchased a family permit then ... on the other hand, is there is anything except Family, Group, Other ?? I know whatever is in my glovebox covers me and one other family member adult.

 

[Stepmurr]

I must have purchased a family permit then ... on the other hand, is there is anything except Family, Group, Other ?? I know whatever is in my glovebox covers me and one other family member adult.

Two check boxes - choose wisely

 

[GWcruiser]

Two check boxes - choose wisely
View attachment 910712

Seems I did ... also, primary reason I checked was to see when it expired, it seemed like it was last year ... but I have a few more months.

 

[LongDuck]

Okay, guys - so today was my day in court (or at least at the court house). I'm posting the resolution here so it's all in one place, and will then create a new post to be a 'sticky' regarding State Trust Land Permits along with a link to this story for future reference.

As briefly as possible here's how the events of today unfolded;

A) Short version - no citation/ticket was filed with the Justice Court prior to my court appearance date today (6/25@8:30a, 30 days after the infraction date of May24) and therefore no case was in court record requiring me to be arraigned before the Justice of the Peace. I never saw the Judge, never entered a plea, and no ticket exists in the system to be dismissed. I was told by 2 Clerks of the Court that if the ticket is registered with the court AFTER today, it will have missed it's filing deadline and will be dismissed automatically.

B) Long version - In the days leading up to today's court date I checked the Justice Court online roster for my name and case details and never saw an entry for the ticket. Under advice of trusted counsel, I did not have a True Copy (my copy of the Citation) with me in court today which changed the sequence of events. This is where it gets interesting - every time I called the Justice Court they stated they didn't have a registered ticket under my name and DOB, but instructed that I should still plan to be there on the appointed date/time in case the ticket was entered electronically overnight or the morning of - and, I was asked to bring my True Copy of the ticket with me to the court proceedings - my counsel told me why they ask this.

Apparently, if the court doesn't have the Officer's original version of the ticket in their records by your court date, the court can use YOUR True Copy of the ticket to enter into their system, creating a valid record for you to go before the Judge and enter a plea. The True Copy is a carbonless copy of everything on the original and is what makes this possible. Going back to the legal advice I received if I didn't have my True Copy in hand, the court would not be able to enter a ticket on the officer's behalf - and my 5th Amendment rights assert that as a potential defendant, I don't have to assist the state in building a prosecution case against me. In other words, bringing my True Copy to the court would be akin to bringing along a good, strong rope to my own hanging. I need to mention that this ONLY applies to tickets which are NOT registered with the court - as several people there today had tickets which WERE registered by the Officer, and had pre-printed Plea Instructions with their names waiting for them. My situation seems to be an isolated case whereby the Officer never filed the ticket with the court for whatever reason...

At the Justice Court, the conversation went very strangely as the Clerk of the Court clearly wanted me to produce my True Copy so he could enter a ticket. Since I didn't have this, he seemed perturbed that he could not create a recorded ticket in the system - no record meant I wouldn't even be able to talk to the Judge, since no case technically existed to be referenced at all. The Clerk of the Court stated the following when asked what typically transpires next: If the Officer who wrote the Citation didn't register the ticket with the court yet, even if he registers it tomorrow it will be dismissed because it missed the filing deadline (30days from written complaint), however - the Officer has up to a year to re-log the ticket, and I could get a new summons (*this part doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and that's clearly what he said because I asked him to repeat it). So at this point, the ticket doesn't seem to exist. There wasn't a dismissal - because there wasn't a case, and I managed to not incriminate myself on a Criminal Trespassing charge.


I think this is the best possible outcome to NOT have a criminal record for the trespassing ticket in the state system, to NOT have a fine imposed, and to NOT have entered a plea in any arraignment which would have set me up for a future court date to defend or explain my actions. As always, I'm open to feedback and experience which may help educate me and others now or in the future, and appreciate all the advice and assistance the forum members have offered so far.

I really appreciate bouncing this off of a few of you to get perspective and will be sure to have a valid State Trust Land Permit anytime I go offroad which crosses State Trust Land, and urge others in the club to do the same.

 

[GWcruiser]

Kudos --- asking an attorney is always a good idea.

I have fought several tickets, won some lost others. Two noteworthy wins:

1) Stationary unmanned Photo RADAR in construction zone - 35 in a 25 - won on the basis signage was not visible thus the photo radar citation was invalid (took photos of the temporary construction speed signs folded laying in the gutters -- no clue how they got that way). The road was signed 40 MPH within 100 yards of the RADAR cameras, which I photographed to show both. Since an officer was not present to contest my evidence at the time the RADAR photo was taken, the judge ruled in my favor. Win.

2) RADAR from an oncoming sheriff tagged me (and four other bikes) at 78 in a 55 while following a two mile train of traffic moving 50 to 55. The cause was likley a common RADAR flaw called cosine error (we were in a curve, cop on the inside). This 20 over amounts to reckless driving - a serious insurance ding - so I decided to fight it.

I retained an attorney, he subpoenaed the state RADAR expert for trial. The case was deferred multiple times due to lack of requested RADAR expert, judge allowed deferrals at city atty request. After 9 months, case was held, city atty a no show. My atty instructed me to say nothing. Judge directed several questions to me. I stayed quiet and atty answered. Judge had no ability to do anything but find me innocent since the City was unrepresented (no officer or atty). Win. But my atty cost $400. The three other bikes represented themselves and were found guilty and each fined $250 - with a Reckless Driving on record for 12 months.

Aftere trial, my atty informed me the City hires anyone to act as judge; this particular guy was a prison guard.

 

[BrotherRob]

Best case scenario would have been to give you a warning if they're not going to file the gaudam ticket. It would have had the same effect with out wasting a bunch of people's valuable time and the taxpayer's money.

Incidentally, this is roughly the same situation with photo radar. Since there's no officer to file the citation. They are expecting you a incriminate yourself by acknowledging the ticket. If you don't, the only way for the ticket to be valid is if you are served by an officer of the court. With the number of flashes, it's a practical impossibility to serve all the tickets.

Glad it worked out for you, Thomas. But the whole thing seems like a fishy agenda to me.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Thanks for the report Thomas, justice was served

Good things happen to good people