1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Is it time for 20W50?

Discussion in '40- & 55-Series Tech' started by Sparky_Mark, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    Raleign / Durham, NC
    I have heard that as the 2F wears, some people go with 20W50 oil. Wondering if it's time for me, here's the details of the engine...

    - 2F from a '79, about 150,000 miles on it (the last 50,000 have been on road and highway).
    - It has never been rebuilt.
    - It does blow oil (suspect that it's coming from the head from the results of a compression test.
    - I never take the engine above 3,000 rpm.
    - I have noticed a rattling between 2500 - 3000 rpm under load.
    - I have adjusted the valves in the last few weeks (they did not need a lot of adjustment). When I took the cover off, and ran the engine, I did not see a lot of oil flow from the rocker assembly. The top of the head was not dry, but I didn't know if I should be "seeing" a lot of oil movement.
    - I live in Michigan: Summers are around 90 degrees.
    - I have been using 10W-40 oil in it since I bought it 50,000 miles ago.

    Will the 20W-50 help quiet the rattling that I hear? I'm not too sure about what may be going on with the internal parts.
    My main concern is that rattling that sounds like it could be the push rods but I'm not sure. :dunno:

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Pinion

    Pinion

    Messages:
    1,124
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Location:
    Milford, Mass
    Pull off the rocker rail and check out the pushrods. You might want to get a magnetic pen thing and pull out the lifters too and soak them in parts cleaner, you may have a lifter that is getting ready to get stuck. Wipe 'em down with a little hi temp grease on the sides and on the mating surface with the pushrod and button it all back up.

    Had that problem in the past, and by doing that the noise went away (Had a lifter that was a little gummed up.)
     
  3. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    Raleign / Durham, NC
    Good thought... Can I take the side inspection cover off to see if I have an issue with a lifter? &nbsp:Do you think I may have an oil flow problem to the lifter area (or rocker area)?

    Would the high temp grease be broken down by the circulating oil?
     
  4. petescoffee

    petescoffee

    Messages:
    1,824
    Likes Received:
    19
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Location:
    Walnut Creek, CA
    You do not get a lot of oil to the rocker arms to begin with. So what you are getting is probably normal. Do a compression check on your motor with a simple valve job you may get many more miles of enjoyment. :eek:
     
  5. SwampRat

    SwampRat

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    I'd actually take that a step back and just wire wheel off all of the lifters wether they need it or not ( it really helps a lot.) If that doesn't seem to help, then youre only out about a half an hour of time anyway.

    When I first got my cruizer, the po was running castrol 20w50 in it, I was wondering why so I switched to 10W40 to see if anything would happen........two oil changes later found the leaky rear main seal that he was trying to hide. You will have much better oil pressure using 10w40 than you will trying to pump that syrup(20w50) through your motor. But I might try it during the Hot months.......I live right below you in wisconsin.......I'm not sure If a 2f will crank over in the winter with that syrup in it.
    Good luck........Your cruizer is like a dog.....if you save it's life and are nice to it, it will someday save your life too!
     
  6. woody

    woody Internet Fireman Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,336
    Media:
    303
    Likes Received:
    1,099
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Location:
    Toquerville UT
    my old 350 (on the stand now) cranked over all year in Wisconsin with 3 quarts of SAE 50 and 3 bottles of motor honey.

    Still may use that motor in a project someday, since no one seems to want to buy it...hehehe
     
  7. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    Raleign / Durham, NC
    I haven't noticed any oil leaking, so maybe I'll stick with the 10W40 grade. While I have the oil drained is there anything I should check (oil pump, oil cooler, oil pressure sensor, etc.) for preventative maintenance?
     
  8. theo

    theo

    Messages:
    1,432
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    I had a similar rattle in the older 350 I'm running. The PO is a good friend who owns a car dealership. His mechanics could never find the problem, but the engine is a very strong runner. So I tried a few ounces of Sea Foam in the oil. It's a solvent for dissolving gum and varnish that can accumulate in places like ring lands and valve guides and lifters etc. The stuff seems to have worked. Turned the oil black as night and the rattle is gone for now.

    I only ran it for a couple hundred miles then changed the oil. Also, I don't recommend it except as a last straw. I've been told some old engines just roll over and die from it. Rings lose their seal, valve guides loosen up and leak oil, etc. But my engine is old and cost next to nothing so I had little to lose. And it runs nice now.

    I was thinking the rattle was from floating lifters (sluggish in their bore and not keeping contact with the cam.) Heard it wasn't likely in a stock engine but I'm not so sure. Maybe you should try a milder form of oil detergent like Mystery Oil, or Sea Foam in very conservative amounts??
     
  9. Pinion

    Pinion

    Messages:
    1,124
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Location:
    Milford, Mass
    To get the side inspection cover off I think you have to pull the oil filter and/or the distributor (Its been a year or two since I have done it, so not so sure.  Just give it a look to see.)
    The hi temp grease will be fine in there.  You dont have to use a ton of it though, just enough for the lifters and pushrods to push against until the oil can get in there.
    It isnt a bad idea to do anyways since your motor has so many miles on it.  Pull out the lifters and soak them in parts cleaner for as long as you can, when they come out they should be shiny and clean.  If you still have some laquer/varnish build up use a rag to get it off -no abrasives.  A compressor with an air gun will help as well.

    I doubt you have a flow problem.  How is the oil pressure gauge?  The oil is designed to fall from the head into the lifters, so they will be lubed fine.

     
  10. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    Raleign / Durham, NC
    I remember a while back that I had to remove the inspection cover - I'm pretty sure that I just had to remove the coolant tube that runs to the heater core. There had been an oil leak at the bottom rear area of the cover; so I took it off, cleaned it, and sealed it back up. I think I'll try cleaining up the lifters and lubing them up. Seems pretty easy to do as long as I can keep everything organized.

    The comment about floating valves has certainly been on my mind. I don't take the engine above 3,000 rpm ever, so I thought that I was being pretty nice to it. A few years back I took a head and machined it, ground the valves and seats, and put new valve springs and seals on it. I'm thinking that I may be getting close to the point where I should swap it out.

    Another theory that I got from a friend...
    Based on the fact that I have an exhaust leak at the manifold (not really bad, but certainly noticeable), he said that I could just be hearing detonation from the spark plugs. I assumed that the rattle had to be a mechanical problem, but he described that detonation is worse under load (and at high rpm's). The engine does not make the rattling sound when the load is removed - when I feather the clutch just a little to make it slip. An interesting thought. Any comments on that?
     
  11. SwampRat

    SwampRat

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    on the note of detonation.......did you check your timing? If you're too far ahead it will rattle under stress. I just adjusted my lifters and timing this morning........pull up to a curb and try feathering over the curb....if it rattles your too far advanced. (good ole' boys method)
    Also, if you have an exhaust leak....that might've messed with your back pressure...which can kinda lead to a timing problem (can't it?) :dunno:
    cheers
     
  12. PHAT MAX

    PHAT MAX

    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2002
    still got the flywheel?
     
  13. rukowh

    rukowh

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Location:
    Ruston, Louisiana
    I had a similar rattle and it turned out to be worn timing gears.
    My advice would be to try the easy stuff first. You have to pull the radiator,front pulley and timing cover just to check the gap. the cam has to come out to change the gear. They don't exactly give away the gear sets either. I went ahead and rebuilt my motor while i was about it. One thing leads to another.
     
  14. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    Raleign / Durham, NC
    The oil pressure gage reads OK (but it is the stock gage).
    I haven't checked the timing, so I'll do that this weekend.
    I hope the cause isn't from the bottom end - I don't want to get into that.

    I want to thank everyone for the suggestions and info. I really appreciate the participation. I have taken care of a lot of issues because of the board. I hope I can give a little back in return in the future.
     
  15. theo

    theo

    Messages:
    1,432
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Sparky, here's a way to give back. Post the solution to your problem when you find it!!
    ;)
     
  16. Webster

    Webster

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Might try MaxLife oil from which company I can't remember. Claims to be for high mileage engines. I just changed my oil (200,000 miles) in my 2F and replaced with this for kicks. &nbsp:Did notice a nice increase in oil pressure. &nbsp:Does anyone have an opinion on this product?
     
  17. SwampRat

    SwampRat

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    I'll stand by Valvo. Max life.....it's great stuff!
    I also run Restore in my cruizer...(generally I don't believe in additives but it really does help, it's for the cylinder walls...but I have to say that it's probably good for the valve guides as well, and it doesnt seem to clog the motor either ( I haven't noticed a sudden scary difference in pressure)
     
  18. PHAT MAX

    PHAT MAX

    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2002
    i am a firm believer in the lucas additive. put that in the beretta, and it helps keep the pressure up MUCH better.

    -Max
     
  19. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    Raleign / Durham, NC
    Re: Is it time for 20W50? Rattling @ high rpm

    All,
    This weekend I purchased a light and checked the timing. I removed the vacuum lines and plugged them with golf tees (noticed a change in engine speed at that point which I understand is normal). I ran the idle at the recommended speed (it was at about 700 rpm). Then I clamped the inductive pickup on the #1 wire, and took a look at the marks on the flywheel.
    Much to my suprise, I didn't see the ball in the window at all. It was nowhere near the fixed needle. I thought that the timing must way off, so I went ahead and loosened the pinch bolt at the base of the distributor. I couldn't get the distributor to turn at all. I used a screwdriver to try to loosen the clamp a little - no dice. I used a oil filter wrench (very carefully) to try to get it to move - wouldn't budge. I put some PB Blaster on it and will try again tonight.
    Is there a set screw or something simple that I'm missing? I didn't see any other fasteners that need to be removed in any of the 3 manuals that I have (Toyota, Haynes, and Chliton).
    I did, however, come across a description of my problem in the Chilton service manual. It described a sound of "marbles being dropped in a coffee can" if the timing is too far advanced and the engine is under load. I'm really curious to find out if that's the root cause of the problem I have.
    When I get the distributor to turn, I'll post another reply. Has anyone else had a hard time with turning the distributor??
     
  20. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,174
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    If you do a search here, you'll find Perfect Obsession made a very elaborate mechanism to get his to finally move. He has photos and everything.