1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hub oil seal (again)

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by Jim_Phillips, May 4, 2003.

  1. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ingerland
    I finally got round to changing the oil in the rear diff this weekend. The 'old' oil looked great - like a stream of clear honey.

    Whilst I was at it I thought I would take a peek at the oil in the front diff. I did the Birfield repack and changed the hub oil seal and diff oil in January, so was expecting the oil to be clean. Unfortunately, as soon as I undid the diff filler nut oil started to come out. That's a bad sign since I know I only filled it up level with the hole. If there's more oil in the diff than I put there then it has come from somewhere - moly grease?!

    After looking carefully at the oil it was apparent that there was moly grease mixed in. You can imagine how happy I am at the prospect of having to replace the hub oil seals again. I can't think what I could have done wrong last time. Any ideas / suggestions?

    Cheers, Jim
     
  2. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

    Messages:
    1,145
    Media:
    41
    Likes Received:
    47
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2003
    Jim,
    It doesn't sound too good if that's all the time you got out of your work. It does seem the grease got by a seal. Not to insult your intelligence but here are a few generalizations about seals. If the axle or whatever has a groove in it from the old seal try to put the new seal in either a little farther or a little less far if possible. If a new seal is put in a groove worn by the old seal it can get ruined in no time. If it's not possible to put the seal in a different place the axle/part must be replaced. Some times there are undersize seals available with a "sleeve" to cover up a bad groove.
    A seal goes in with the spring toward the oil.
    I always put just a very light coating of grease or oil on the seal or axle when I install it so the new seal doesn't start off with rubber on dry metal.
    Be careful when sliding the part with the seal on that there are no burrs or rough surfaces it is sliding over.
    Don't ding up the new seal when pounding it in to place. A couple of tricks? I have used to install seals if I don't have a seal driver is to find a socket that is just the right diameter to use to drive the seal. I flip the socket over and use the "flat" backside. I put an extension in the socket this backwards way so the socket can drive the seal uniformly. If I can't find a socket the right size I have used the old seal to drive or get the new one started since it is the right size.
    Hope this has been a help in some way.
    Bill
     
  3. Beowulf

    Beowulf

    Messages:
    12,526
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Somewhere in the foothills...
    JIm,
    I believe you posted pics of your front diff breather a few weeks back. As I recall, it was seeping gear oil pretty badly. If you haven't done the diff breather mods (extend at the same time) then you should do that soon.

    What happens is that the breather clogs up, causes a vacuum in the diff, which pulls grease past the seals and into the diff.  An unmodified breather creates the same vacuum; clogged or not.

    The things Bill mentioned to look for are right on. I would add another thing to look at; look for excessive play in the long side axle. There is a bushing in the hub that might be worn and allowing too much "whipping" of the axle. I don't know what the measurement should be or how to detect wear. Maybe others will know.  

    There were a few threads about this bushing wear on the 80s list. It appears that very few people have had to replace the part with the bushing. When it was replaced, the new part came with a roller bearing instead of the bushing. This new design hasn't been confirmed by anyone that I know of, but that is the rumor.

    C-Dan, can you let us know if the new part has roller bearings instead of a brass bushing?

    -B-
     
  4. landtoy80

    landtoy80

    Messages:
    5,668
    Likes Received:
    241
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Location:
    North Front Range, CO
    The spring on the seal can fall off when you install and or put the axle in. I caught that the spring had fallen off before I put the axle in. I used MAF kit and the word is that they are not very good. If the spring falls off it will leak. Use Toyota parts.
    kurt
     
  5. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ingerland
    -B-

    I did the diff breather (yesterday) - maybe a case of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted - the pipe didn't seem to be blocked - but who knows, maybe the cap on the end was stuck fast before I removed it. I haven't extended the breather pipe yet but will do so soon. You might be right about the bushing but I think I cocked up inserting the seal and thereby caused the problem...

    Bill, I don't recall there being a groove made by the old seal but this is something I'll look out for next time. I think I may have put a ding in one of the seals when driving it in. This was one part of the procedure I should have done more carefully. As I didn't have a seal driver or anything of a similar diameter to the seal - so I tapped it it with the handle of my hammer. This meant I went around the seal giving it a little tap here and there all the way around rather than tapping it uniformly. I'll try your idea of using a socket next time. I may also have caused a ding when putting the shaft back in. I reall it was kind of hanging out for a while whilst I messed around with the gaskets..

    Kurt, I think the spring was there Ok - but again, a possible cause of the problem and one for me to be wary of next time.

    Oh well, practice makes perfect.....

    Thanks for the input everyone.

    Cheers, Jim :beer:
     
  6. Beowulf

    Beowulf

    Messages:
    12,526
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Somewhere in the foothills...
    Jim,
    I know you're anxious to get back in the knuckle but, if it was me, I would drain and fill the front diff, drive another 5k or so, then check it again. In this short time it is unlikely all the knuckle grease would be washed out. You've done the breather mod so there won't be a vacuum problem (extending isn't necessary to eliminate the vacuum.)

    Give it a go before you tear the knuckle down again. Now, if you're just looking for an excuse to use the JP-Special hub socket....  :G

    -B-
     
  7. TLCObsession

    TLCObsession

    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Location:
    Bellingham, WA (Lake Samish)
    The kits I got from MAF had the Toyota seals in it....

    Jim
     
  8. Beowulf

    Beowulf

    Messages:
    12,526
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Somewhere in the foothills...
    Jim (TLCO),

    Sometimes the aftermarket kits have OEM parts and sometimes they have "equivalents."  That's been part of the problem.  If it is the exact same part; say a Timken bearing with the same mfg part number, then that is OK. The problem with buying these kits from MAF, SOR, Downey, or wherever is that you are not guaranteed Toyota parts all the time.

    All you can do is check with the supplier at the time you plan to make the purchase and try to pin them down on the source of the part.

    -B-
     
  9. TLCObsession

    TLCObsession

    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Location:
    Bellingham, WA (Lake Samish)
    The reason I knew they were Toyota parts is that I had gone down to the stealer and bought seals because I had gotten non-OEM seals in a 40 kit.

    Besides for the 40, I keep seals in my trail box....

    Jim
     
  10. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ingerland
    -B-

    I like that idea. I'll give it a go.

    Cheers, Jim :beer:
     
  11. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

    Messages:
    2,036
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2003
    Jim,
    I agree with beo on the wait to attack until you know your enemy theory. but I will throw in my opinion for what happens if that theory fails. Find a local cv axle rebuilder, I am not sure about in the little Island of yours wether they use cv joints but here it is pretty common to reman them. when they do they will check for wear spots on the shaft and braze a steel ring around the low spot and then lathe it back down to tolerance. when I had mine remanned I was a bit surprised by this ring and asked the guy at the shop. In retrospect it makes perfect sense as even a rubber seal will wear out an axle shaft given enough revolutions..
    Dave :beer:
     
  12. ParadiseCruiser

    ParadiseCruiser

    Messages:
    620
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Greetings Jim -

    Sorry to hear about the diff/axle woes. Although these points have, for the most point already been covered, just a couple of additional thoughts...

    1. Keep in mind that after you drain/refill the front diff, there is a considerable residual, on the gears and in the tube, that will foul the new gear oil. This will give the immediate impression of a continuing fault - when you examine it later - when it may not be so bad as that.

    You might want to drain/refill a couple of times over the next several thousand km's to help determine the source and degree of the contaminated gear oil that drains out. If you did not do this first time around, you may be looking at some old grease contamination here, though that does not account for the diff being over filled of course...

    2. Even if the new seals have been slightly compromised - either by a minor installation fault, or by a blocked breather - the pressure equalibrium on the axle seal created by the gear oil in the diff, when properly filled, will reduce seepage across the seal to some degree.

    While in the end, the seals may have to replaced again, you can buy some time by watching it closely.

    Cheers! R -
     
  13. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ingerland
    Ron

    I like this theory better and better. I'm quite happy to let myself believe there could be another explanation for the contaminated oil other than a bodged hub oil seal. I take it that a little diff oil in the birfield will do no harm? (if there is any)

    Cheers, Jim
     
  14. ParadiseCruiser

    ParadiseCruiser

    Messages:
    620
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    J -

      Everything here is a matter of degree. You really do not want any gear oil in the birfield liquefying the grease. Having said that, if there is no evidence of gear oil leaking from the knuckle (either on the ground, or on the inside of the wheel/tire), the degree to which the seal has been compromised - if at all - is not severe enough to panic over.

      Checking the diff oil more frequently than you would ordinarily, and keeping your eye on the knuckles and wheels should at least for a time allow you to better assess the situation.

    R -

    PS: I believe it is time for something a little more potent in the cup holder... parked in the drive, of course... ;)

     
     
  15. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ingerland
    Ron

    That cup holder has created a stir amongst the mechanics at my local Toyota dealer. I think you're right. Time to have a drink and relax :beer:
     
  16. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

    Messages:
    20,567
    Likes Received:
    2,897
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Location:
    Surrounded by Cruisers from all over the world
    -B-
    There is a needle bearing setup available for IFS trucks pre Tacoma. I have never heard of a similar setup for the solid axle vehicles.


    &nbsp:Dan.